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Kylie

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I don't say "Only a mind" but I think it's the inference to the best explanation. Naturalism has literally zero explanation.
So what? An honest "I don't know" is better than clinging to whatever claims to have the answer. And when that answer is unfalsifiable, then I don't see that it offers anything of value.
Why do you think they believe in a god? Because they know science can't explain everything.
So what?

If they are experts in one particular field, I'm happy to accept what they have to say regarding that field. But just because someone is a highly skilled cosmologist, doesn't mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to God. Expecting a cosmologist to be right about God is like expecting an electrician to be right about neurosurgery.
 
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YahuahSaves

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And as I've said multiple times now, this definition includes me putting bread in the toaster. The bread EVOLVES into toast!
Well the toaster is what made the bread toast. So there was something behind the process of the bread evolving.

That's not what you asked though, is it?

You asked me for something that wasn't created.
And you linked an article that didn't mention "nothing" behind the universe at all, in fact it talked a lot about particles and the like.
 
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Kylie

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Then why not call yourself agnostic? Seems like you're not sure.
I am agnostic.

I'm an agnostic atheist.

Agnosticism isn't about being unsure about God. It's a claim of knowledge.

  1. An agnostic atheist says, "I lack belief in God. However, I don't claim to know for certain that there is no God."
  2. A gnostic atheist would say, "I definitely know for sure that God doesn't exist at all."
  3. An agnostic theist would say, "I believe in God, but I don't claim to know for a fact that God exists."
  4. A gnostic theist would say, "God exists, and I know this for a fact."

I am in the first category, and it seems to me that you are in the fourth.
You missed the definition of atheist.


See the definition of agnostic below.

agnostic
noun

1) One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
2) One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

3) One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
An atheist is someone who lacks a belief in God. I do not believe in God, hence I am an atheist.

However, since I don't claim to know for a fact that I am right (I've said repeatedly that I'd be perfectly willing to change my mind if presented with sufficient evidence to do so), I am an agnostic atheist, rather than a gnostic one.

This video goes into more detail. I've included the time code so it will start playing about halfway through at the part that talks about this specific thing, though I'd also recommend watching the whole thing as well. It will give you a much better understanding of what an atheist actually is.

 
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All Becomes New

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So what? An honest "I don't know" is better than clinging to whatever claims to have the answer. And when that answer is unfalsifiable, then I don't see that it offers anything of value.

So what?

If they are experts in one particular field, I'm happy to accept what they have to say regarding that field. But just because someone is a highly skilled cosmologist, doesn't mean they know what they are talking about when it comes to God. Expecting a cosmologist to be right about God is like expecting an electrician to be right about neurosurgery.

An honest answer of "I don't know" is fine if you have no other explanation. But, as I said before, based on science, we know that only minds are capable of creating. So it is not a "god of the gaps," argument since it is an inference to the best explanation. And that's what scientists do all the time. So can I prove that God exists? Certainly not to anyone and everyone. But there is sufficient evidence that God exists. People who don't believe in God either believe science is in conflict with theism (it's not and that's the great lie of secularism) or they deny the evidence they are given. So saying "I don't know" when we have evidence of minds (you and I talking right now) and saying we, as people with minds know that only minds are capable of creating anything, then it's a reasonable belief to have that a mind created the universe and life.

It's like you are saying the only people who know anything about anything are people who specialize in something. So if someone specializes in religion and theistic arguments, you have no excuse as to why you don't trust their expertise. What is your excuse for this? That only science is valid? If that's the case when you say "So what?" you are defeating your own arguments.
 
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All Becomes New

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I am agnostic.

I'm an agnostic atheist.

Agnosticism isn't about being unsure about God. It's a claim of knowledge.

  1. An agnostic atheist says, "I lack belief in God. However, I don't claim to know for certain that there is no God."
  2. A gnostic atheist would say, "I definitely know for sure that God doesn't exist at all."
  3. An agnostic theist would say, "I believe in God, but I don't claim to know for a fact that God exists."
  4. A gnostic theist would say, "God exists, and I know this for a fact."

I am in the first category, and it seems to me that you are in the fourth.

That's just Dawkins' terrible philosophy. Philosophers do not use this terminology.
 
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Kylie

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An honest answer of "I don't know" is fine if you have no other explanation. But, as I said before, based on science, we know that only minds are capable of creating. So it is not a "god of the gaps," argument since it is an inference to the best explanation.
The mechanism that creates mountains is well understood, and there is no need to invoke a mind for any part of it. Your claim that only minds are capable of creating does not seem to be correct.
And that's what scientists do all the time. So can I prove that God exists? Certainly not to anyone and everyone. But there is sufficient evidence that God exists. People who don't believe in God either believe science is in conflict with theism (it's not and that's the great lie of secularism) or they deny the evidence they are given. So saying "I don't know" when we have evidence of minds (you and I talking right now) and saying we, as people with minds know that only minds are capable of creating anything, then it's a reasonable belief to have that a mind created the universe and life.
I have never claimed that science and religion are in conflict.
It's like you are saying the only people who know anything about anything are people who specialize in something. So if someone specializes in religion and theistic arguments, you have no excuse as to why you don't trust their expertise. What is your excuse for this? That only science is valid? If that's the case when you say "So what?" you are defeating your own arguments.
But the thing is this...

Every physicist in the world will agree with all the others on what the speed of light is. Every rocket scientist in the world will agree that if you send off a rocket at such a speed with the engines burning for this long, it will go in that particular direction. Every mathematician will agree that one number raised to the power of some other number will have this particular result.

But when you get people who specialize in religion, they all say different things. priest, a rabbi, an imam, they all say the evidence clearly points towards their own faith and away from all the others. How can this be true? They obviously can't all be right, at least some of them have to be wrong. And if some of them are wrong, how do we determine which ones? We can't just say, "The one that agrees with my faith is right and all the others are wrong," since if we do that, a Muslim will conclude that Islam is correct, a Jew will conclude that Judaism is correct, and a Christian will conclude that Christianity is correct. And we're right back where we started.

So we need some way to test and verify the claims. This works for all the other fields. When the physicist makes a claim about the speed of light, then that can be verified and checked. And every single time, the verification works. Everyone always gets the same answer. This is what we would expect if something is actually real. And the same thing happens with the rocket scientist. They can claim that the rocket will go in a particular direction, and other people can run their own calculations and see if they get the same result. And they can also just wait to see where the rocket actually goes. That's the important thing - if something is actually real, then everyone who investigates it should get the same results. If different people get different results for the speed of light, for example, then you know someone's messed up somewhere. And it's only by investigating it that we'll find out where the mistake is.

But we can't do this at all when it comes to religion. Religion makes pretty much no testable claims. The idea of God is unfalsifiable. No matter what results you get, there's always some way to explain it that's consistent with your own personal beliefs. Can you imagine if we did that with other things? How could the rocket scientist figure out how long the rocket engine needs to burn for in order to get into orbit around the moon if the results for one person said it needs to burn for five minutes, and the results for the other person said it needs to burn for a whole day?

So I'm not saying that only science is valid. I'm saying that the only valid way to get accurate information about anything is by going with what can be tested and verified. And if it always gives inconsistent results, then we can't say it's valid at all.
 
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YahuahSaves

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I am agnostic.

I'm an agnostic atheist.
You can't be both at the same time. The dictionary is paramount to understanding words and definitions. However, by your made-up definitions, I am indeed "number 4" and not having any doubts about the existence of God is a wonderfully freeing thing to experience :clap:
 
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YahuahSaves

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But there's the problem.

I could just as easily say Brahma created them, so it proves that Hinduism is the correct faith.
Then choose Hinduism as your religion? No one decides but you which path to follow.
 
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Kylie

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That's just Dawkins' terrible philosophy. Philosophers do not use this terminology.
The same philosophy was used by the guy who made the video I linked to in post 284, and he has a PHD in religious studies, and he literally wrote his thesis on this topic as part of his Doctorate of Philosophy. You can see that thesis HERE and download it for free.
 
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Kylie

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Then choose Hinduism as your religion? No one decides but you which path to follow.
That wasn't my point. I was showing that the claim that God created the particles is just as valid as saying Brahma created them.
 
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YahuahSaves

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People who don't believe in God either believe science is in conflict with theism (it's not and that's the great lie of secularism) or they deny the evidence they are given. So saying "I don't know" when we have evidence of minds (you and I talking right now) and saying we, as people with minds know that only minds are capable of creating anything, then it's a reasonable belief to have that a mind created the universe and life.

Great points :oldthumbsup:
 
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Kylie

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You can't be both at the same time. The dictionary is paramount to understanding words and definitions. However, by your made-up definitions, I am indeed "number 4" and not having any doubts about the existence of God is a wonderfully freeing thing to experience :clap:
Yeah, the guy who made the video literally has a PhD in religious studies and a doctorate in philosophy, so your claim that it's just made up falls flat on its face.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Yeah, the guy who made the video literally has a PhD in religious studies and a doctorate in philosophy
So what? He went to "school" and made up a bunch of theories and got a piece of paper to show it. I prefer the simplicity of the dictionary thanks. Just like I prefer the simplicity of the bible. God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but he likes to make things simple for us. :clap:
 
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Lost Witness

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The one that agrees with my faith is right and all the others are wrong," since if we do that, a Muslim will conclude that Islam is correct, a Jew will conclude that Judaism is correct, and a Christian will conclude that Christianity is correct
Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven,
Muslims Acknowledge Jesus But not who he is, The Son Of GOD
The Jews are still awaiting the Messiah, Who is Jesus Christ.
Without Jesus Christ. You can't make it to Heaven, Kylie.
Then you have us Christians, Who call Jesus LORD,
What do they all have in common?
GOD and a Messiah?
Jesus Christ is that Messiah.
 
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