Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[PeacaHeaven]

It's been shown to you!!!!!!!

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one." 31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.


These are all written by John, an apostle. Clearly he thinks Jesus was God.


But you obviosuly didn't read my last post where I said that this wasn't what really mattered. I mean, the disciples thought wrong often. What the disciples think is not the end all be all, what is written and inspired by God is, and there is plenty of scripture to back up Jesus being God, as has been shown to you.

Read the posts!!!! Don't just spout this no one's answered me stuff

 

[Gary51]

It's been shown to you!!!!!!!

John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14 - "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Let's do some Greek. I'll transliterate as best I can.

1:1 En arche en ho Logos kai ho Logos en pros ton Theon kai Theos en ho Logos.

Word for word: In beginning was the Word and the Word was towards God existing (Note: this is the best way this can be phrased literally in English) and God was the Word.

Looser translation: In beginning was the Word (or the Mind might actually be a better translation but I won't nitpick) and the Word was with God and the the Word was God.

The with God is a reference to in the beginning, because of the case system of Greek, so in the beginning of all, God's Word is there. Of one substance homousion with the Father. They are of the same substance.

1:3 panta di autou egeneto kai xoris autou egeneto oude hen ho gegonen.

All things through him (referencing the Logos as the Greek case system only has noun agreement and make sense if it references him) came into being and apart from him (the Logos) came into being not one thing which has come into being.

The Word was with God and nothing came into being without him.

If we translate the word Logos in its most original sense as "Mind" we get an interesting quandary. God has existed from before all time and is consequently eternal. He has had a mind for presumably all that existence. God begat his mind, true, but it has still existed for all eternity along with him. Being that Jesus is the logos it stands to reason that although he is begotten, he has existed for eternity as well and as God's word is also God.

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

The Jews did not think He was God. And Jesus did not think He was equal to God. The Jews wanted to kill him because they thought He was making Himself out to be equal to God. And two things can be equal and yet remine two separate things. Have you got two dollars bills!

John 8:24 - "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."

The Messiah.

John 8:58 - "Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'"

Covered by point 1.

John 10:30-33 - "I and the Father are one."

In mind. As God wanted His church to be one.

31The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" 33The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.

Jesus plainly declares in this scripture to those in His audience, “You are gods.” What does this statement mean, and why was it said after His statement in verse 30, “I and My Father are one”?
Jesus was accused of blasphemy, in verse 33, so He quoted Psalm 82:6. Of course, this scripture had been recorded in what the Jews called “their law” (same verse). This verse is actually a prophecy of all who would one day be born into the God Family. Romans 4:17 reveals that God often speaks of “those things which be not as though they were,” because, when He makes a promise, it is as good as done.

Those who understand the true plan of salvation recognize that eventually all true Christians literally will be “gods”! Critics try to twist the fact that Psalm 82:6 uses the Hebrew word Elohim as the word translated gods. They assert that this word can also be translated judges. This is true—Elohim can be translated either way. However, the Greeks had separate words for judge (kritikos) and god (theos). In effect, Christ interpreted Psalm 82:6 by selecting the Greek word theos, which can only mean gods. His purpose in this account was to emphasize that it was not blasphemy if He and His Father were one—both were God!—since the ultimate destiny offered to every human being is to become a member of the God Family!

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

Being that Jesus is the logos it stands to reason that although he is begotten, he has existed for eternity as well and as God's word is also God.

Ok, so Jesus is God. What was all the dispute about then?

 

[Quaero]

The with God is a reference to in the beginning, because of the case system of Greek, so in the beginning of all, God's Word is there. Of one substance homousion with the Father. They are of the same substance.

You have provided within your post the answer to the question which you have asked 11 times, and been answered 11 times. So after your last post the question has been answered 12 times.

Have you satisfied yourself yet or should we reiterate the same point a 13th time?

 

[Gary51]

You have provided within your post the answer to the question which you have asked 11 times, and been answered 11 times. So after your last post the question has been answered 12 times.

Have you satisfied yourself yet or should we reiterate the same point a 13th time?

No not really, there is a differnce... I find it intesting that you do no see it.

 

[Gary51]

Ok, so Jesus is God. What was all the dispute about then?

This is really interesting. Two of you cannot understand what I said. I guess your thinking is kind of in the box.... Try thinking outside of the box.

 

[Albion]

There may be room for discussion when we take up words like "Logos" or "only begotten," but verses that unmistakably show Jesus claiming to be God, acting as only God can, being accused by the Jews of of representing himself as God, and, yes, of his Apostles considering him to be God have been posted on this thread--some repeatedly.

Gary has not commented on them either to agree or disagree with the meaning they appear to hold, but continues instead to pretend they were not posted. It appears, therefore, that Gary is not serious, and we, in turn, should consider the matter concluded.

 

[hybrid]

hiya folks,
jesus may not directly uttered in his mouth the words " I am God", but he did claimed divinity by ascribing to himself titles that belongs to god like alpha and omega in spite of the fact that he was obviously a man. in an indirect and passive way, he allowed both the jews in general and his disciples to think he was divine if not god himself.

just by second guessing only, i think that gary wanted to make an important but subtle distinction between the meaning of the phrase "Jesus is God" and "God is Jesus".

within the context of "christology" the distinction may not be significant or even irrelevant. but in dealing with god's plan salvation (soteriology), the difference is profound. imo.

in the non spatial, non-temporal realms (outside spacetime or heavenly realms) where the son sits at the right hand of the father, one must not think of as such as a statement of separation of the two. we think of separation as either separated by space ( exists at different location at the same time ) or separated by time ( exists a the same time but never of the same location).

so the word separation has only meaning within the context of spacetime realms (creation). transcending our accustomed ideas of space and time, there is no actual separation between the father and the son. they are simply one although distinction can be made from our perspective. arithmetic cannot be use to validate the separation of the father and the son. math are "subset" rules/laws of creation (spacetime realms) and does not apply in the heavenly realms much more to the nature of god.

the function of the son is to unify all things to god. this is god's plan of salvation. imo, beliefs and concepts based on "jesus is god" can lead us to create mental graven images of god in our mind and can stall our spiritual development whereas " god was jesus" allows us to understand the deeper meaning of god's plan for us. the meaning of our divine sonships and ergo our salvation. this is not a new idea. the orthodox church has doctrine to this idea. its called "deification".

 

[InspiredTruth]

Short answer: Yes.

 

[Beukeboom]

Here's a website with links to many articles, essays, audio and video on the Deity of Jesus Christ:

www . monergism. com/directory/link_category/Jesus-Christ/Deity-of-Christ/

 

[Blackmarch]

Did Jesus say he is a God?

He did say that "Before Moses was, I am" which is basically saying he's the being who was telling Moses "I am that I am".

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

double post

 

[SoldierOfTheKing]

This is really interesting. Two of you cannot understand what I said. I guess your thinking is kind of in the box.... Try thinking outside of the box.

With post #842 we actually seemed to be getting somewhere. So here goes.

The with God is a reference to in the beginning, because of the case system of Greek, so in the beginning of all, God's Word is there. Of one substance homousion with the Father. They are of the same substance.

All things through him (referencing the Logos as the Greek case system only has noun agreement and make sense if it references him) came into being and apart from him (the Logos) came into being not one thing which has come into being.

The Word was with God and nothing came into being without him.

So the Word existed in the beginning with the Father. Since nothing came into existence without the Word, the Word, it follows, has always existed.

If we translate the word Logos in its most original sense as "Mind" we get an interesting quandary. God has existed from before all time and is consequently eternal. He has had a mind for presumably all that existence. God begat his mind, true, but it has still existed for all eternity along with him. Being that Jesus is the logos it stands to reason that although he is begotten, he has existed for eternity as well and as God's word is also God.

In New Testament, "God" usually refers to the Father. It is, after all. in the New Testament that we are introduced to the Father. The Old Testament is all about the Word.

The Jews did not think He was God. And Jesus did not think He was equal to God. The Jews wanted to kill him because they thought He was making Himself out to be equal to God. And two things can be equal and yet remine two separate things. Have you got two dollars bills!

"Jesus is God" can be interpreted to mean "Jesus is the Father" or "Jesus is divine". In practice, it almost always means the latter. So, if you're going to dispute Jesus being "God" on the grounds that He is not the Father, it would be wise to be clear about what you mean, otherwise you'll probably be misunderstood.

Those who understand the true plan of salvation recognize that eventually all true Christians literally will be “gods”! Critics try to twist the fact that Psalm 82:6 uses the Hebrew word Elohim as the word translated gods. They assert that this word can also be translated judges. This is true—Elohim can be translated either way. However, the Greeks had separate words for judge (kritikos) and god (theos). In effect, Christ interpreted Psalm 82:6 by selecting the Greek word theos, which can only mean gods. His purpose in this account was to emphasize that it was not blasphemy if He and His Father were one—both were God!—since the ultimate destiny offered to every human being is to become a member of the God Family!

It wouldn't have been blasphemy in any case. Of course, in order for God to clear the path for man to take on God's nature God had to take on man's nature. Christ had to break the barrier between God and man that had been put in place by sin. He couldn't do this were He not divine.

 

[Gary51]

It would be really nice if I could believe in the trinity. I would love to go to church and be just like the majority and accept the trinity doctrine. But I just don't see it. I can't pretend to believe in something I disbelive in, I would be lying to myself, and what's more I would be lying to God.

I'll leave it to God. If God wants me to believe in a trinity He'll let me know. But right now it seems He doesn't want me to believe in a trinity.

 

[eyeoftzion]

In the book "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" by Josh McDowell, he points out that Jesus when speaking to the Sanhedrin court and saying," You say that I am. ," when asked if He is the Son of God, was in His time the formal way in which to adress a court official with a yes. He is claiming that what they say of Him is true, He is the Son of God. In Mark 14:62, He out right says,"I am" to that same question. So YES Jesus claims divinity.

Look at Lk.22:70, Mat.26:64.

 

[k2svpete]

Sorry folks, been away for a few days.

Regarding John 1:1 - Gary has delved into the important stuff with this verse. I did have a nice little analogy elsewhere in the GT area but it was deleted due to being non-trinitarian.

Here it is, a cut 'n' paste from the PM sent to me from the mods.....

"Regarding John 1:1 - I'll use a parable to break it down. There is an architect who has a plan for a house in his mind. He has conceptualised every detail of it and then draws out the plans. Work begins on the plans and eventually the house is finished.

Now, substitute word for house and connect the dots. The house was with the architect from the beginning, it was his design and the design took on physical form. Now, the house is a manifestation of what the architect planned. It does not make the house = the architect.

John 1:14 goes on to state the the word, God's plan, became flesh and further states that this is Jesus, the SON of God. Not that it was God made flesh, an important detail.

John 1:15 - Christ is before all of us as he is God's only begotten son. We are sons and daughters through adoption. This is a simple family principle to grasp.

John 1:29-30 once again reinforces this and that Jesus is a man, not God. He is a man that is to fulfill the role as God's lamb, a sacrifice to fulfill the law and ultimately break the yoke of the law upon us.

To understand the meaning you need to cast aside the Greco-Roman pagan concepts and put on a Jewish mind. No Jew will convert to Christianity where those preaching it are preaching in contravention of the OT. Jesus and the apostles preached out of it and you'll need to provide some OT scriptures to back up the trinitarian ideals, otherwise it is patently a false doctrine."

 

[k2svpete]

wrong pete. In context. 4:8 is when Jesus is tempted by the devil, it has no context relating to the disciples.

I looked through, skimmed anyway, as this topic is extremely long, and I only found you attempt to rebute John 20:28. I'm not saying you didn't because these is a very large topic, but could you repeat them again, as I did not see them.

Sorry, my bad. I didn't have a read on the Luke verse, was thinking of something else.

Yep, I have done the John 20 one somewhere but here you go.

The first part is straight forward. Thomas is professing Jesus as Lord or Messiah.

The second part is where understandings diverge. Thomas's statement 'and my god.' Needs a bit of background for it to make sense. In the day, gods was a term of respect or a type of title. Essentially putting those referred to as god(s) above the plebs of society. There are parallel examples of the use of this language in Ps. 82 IIRC.

So what particular honour is Thomas bestowing on Jesus at this time? Well, Jesus is now the firstborn of the new creation. The first resurrected from the dead, the defeater of death and the King of the Jews.

 

[Gary51]

Sorry folks, been away for a few days.

Regarding John 1:1 - Gary has delved into the important stuff with this verse. I did have a nice little analogy elsewhere in the GT area but it was deleted due to being non-trinitarian.

Here it is, a cut 'n' paste from the PM sent to me from the mods.....

"Regarding John 1:1 - I'll use a parable to break it down. There is an architect who has a plan for a house in his mind. He has conceptualised every detail of it and then draws out the plans. Work begins on the plans and eventually the house is finished.

Now, substitute word for house and connect the dots. The house was with the architect from the beginning, it was his design and the design took on physical form. Now, the house is a manifestation of what the architect planned. It does not make the house = the architect.

John 1:14 goes on to state the the word, God's plan, became flesh and further states that this is Jesus, the SON of God. Not that it was God made flesh, an important detail.

John 1:15 - Christ is before all of us as he is God's only begotten son. We are sons and daughters through adoption. This is a simple family principle to grasp.

John 1:29-30 once again reinforces this and that Jesus is a man, not God. He is a man that is to fulfill the role as God's lamb, a sacrifice to fulfill the law and ultimately break the yoke of the law upon us.

To understand the meaning you need to cast aside the Greco-Roman pagan concepts and put on a Jewish mind. No Jew will convert to Christianity where those preaching it are preaching in contravention of the OT. Jesus and the apostles preached out of it and you'll need to provide some OT scriptures to back up the trinitarian ideals, otherwise it is patently a false doctrine."