Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[Zebra1552]

Oh!!! Godchild..... what I am asking you are quotations....

And what I am asking is for you to go back and read them. They're there. Pages 2, 3, 4. Mostly page 2. With 40 posts per page. Go read them. That is what I ask. I am not going to repost them. And you still have not addressed my earlier point about unbiblical stuff...

 

[scriptures]

Fair enough. Question 2: is this not idolatry?

What idolatry are you talking?

 

[Gary51]

And your opinion is wrong, that is blatantly obvious to anyone who cares to go back and read the numerous pages that demonstrate you doing just what I have described.


Wait, you accept my opinion that you're blinded and that you're a hypocritical heretic? Then why would you disagree in the same breath and say I am talking about myself?


Whenever you make an absolute statement you make a claim.


Given the illogic you use in this thread, I doubt it ever will. Go ahead and prove me wrong, but don't you dare go and accuse me of evading questions when you have done it ever since this thread started.

Boy, you sure lack the Christian attitude that Christ taught. You certainly don't make me feel that you are lovingly sharing the good news of the Gospel. Maybe that's because you don't understand it. I don't claim to be a Christian, so I have an excuse if you don't find me Christ like. What is your excuse?

You called me a heretic. In one way I find that quite amusing. It's a word that was used by the barbarians of the middle ages. You know, the ones that burnt people alive at the stake. But, also I find it sad when so called enlighten modern day man uses it as a tool for intimidation.

That word was used at the counsil of Nicea as a tool for intimidation. And the 318 Bishops assembled there feared it, along with other words like, excommunication, funny how fear can affect one's vote.

Now, let me try and make it plain for you...

If somebody was given the Bible for the first time and was free of Church doctrine and theology, they would most certainly not discover God a trinity.

The most obvious reason would be that the word itself appears nowhere in the Bible. Then there are other obvious reasons like, Jesus is called, "The Son of God" in countless passages, but nowhere in scripture is Jesus called, "God the Son."

Jesus calls the Father, "His God and our God". Jesus said, "the Father is greater than the Son." The Father SENT His Son as sacrifice. He did not send Himself. God cannot die, Jesus did. God cannot be tempted, Jesus was.

I could go on and on with obvious passages that would prove to any unindoctrinated open minded person that, God the father is one God, and Jesus His Son is the Messiah. But I know it would fall on deaf ears to those that prefer the word of 4th century man rather than the Holy Writ.

Just my understanding.

Enjoy.

 

[scriptures]

And what I am asking is for you to go back and read them. They're there. Pages 2, 3, 4. Mostly page 2. With 40 posts per page. Go read them. That is what I ask. I am not going to repost them. And you still have not addressed my earlier point about unbiblical stuff...

Don't worry, I'll be patient with you.... it's something I have learned from the Bible.....

So now, what's your argument????

 

[scriptures]

Boy, you sure lack the Christian attitude that Christ taught. You certainly don't make me feel that you are lovingly sharing the good news of the Gospel. Maybe that's because you don't understand it. I don't claim to be a Christian, so I have an excuse if you don't find me Christ like. What is your excuse?

You called me a heretic. In one way I find that quite amusing. It's a word that was used by the barbarians of the middle ages. You know, the ones that burnt people alive at the stake. But, also I find it sad when so called enlighten modern day man uses it as a tool for intimidation.

That word was used at the counsil of Nicea as a tool for intimidation. And the 318 Bishops assembled there feared it, along with other words like, excommunication, funny how fear can affect one's vote.

Now, let me try and make it plain for you...

If somebody was given the Bible for the first time and was free of Church doctrine and theology, they would most certainly not discover God a trinity.

The most obvious reason would be that the word itself appears nowhere in the Bible. Then there are other obvious reasons like, Jesus is called, "The Son of God" in countless passages, but nowhere in scripture is Jesus called, "God the Son."

Jesus calls the Father, "His God and our God". Jesus said, "the Father is greater than the Son." The Father SENT His Son as sacrifice. He did not send Himself. God cannot die, Jesus did. God cannot be tempted, Jesus was.

I could go on and on with obvious passages that would prove to any unindoctrinated open minded person that, God the father is one God, and Jesus His Son is the Messiah. But I know it would fall on deaf ears to those that prefer the word of 4th century man rather than the Holy Writ.

Just my understanding.

Enjoy.

Welcome back Gary, I was surprised your not even a christian? You are Biblically sound, what holds you back?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

What idolatry are you talking?

Idolatry: the worship of idols. In this case, the worship of the Bible. It seems you are placing it before God.

 

[Uphill Battle]

You said, "abundant proof" but you mentioned only two... which can be translated/interpreted contrary to what you believe....



(LONT) expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(Murdock) looking for the blessed hope, and the manifestation of the glory of the great God, and our Life-giver, Jesus the Messiah;

see!!! Our great God YHWH is different from our Messiah.... the anointed one of God....

what translations are those? never heard of them. searching them out on a parallel site:

................................................................................
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
................................................................................
................................................................................
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,
................................................................................
................................................................................
awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Savior Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

................................................................................
From: Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus, the Messiah. To: Those who have received faith that is as valuable as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
From Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ. To those who have obtained a faith that is as valuable as ours, a faith based on the approval that comes from our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the'saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who with us have a part in the same holy faith in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, bondman and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:


In all cases, the tense is that the Great God, and Jesus Christ, are one and the same. They do not separate the two subjects in the passage, as in your passages.

most, you have Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

the others, Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (I'm sure you'll argue that this means that it is separated because of the And our.... but there is no clause separation. Much like if you said something like "she is our aunt and our friend." Same subject.



so then, what are these "Translations" you are using?

 

[scriptures]

Idolatry: the worship of idols. In this case, the worship of the Bible. It seems you are placing it before God.

The Bible is the word of God.... I know God because of The Bible.... but I don't worship it.....

 

[scriptures]

what translations are those? never heard of them. searching them out on a parallel site:

................................................................................
as we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearance of our great God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
................................................................................
................................................................................
At the same time we can expect what we hope for-the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for the glad hope, the revelation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for the blessed hope and coming of the glory of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ,
................................................................................
................................................................................
awaiting the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Savior Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
in expectation of the fulfilment of our blessed hope--the Appearing in glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;
................................................................................
................................................................................
waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ,

................................................................................
From: Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus, the Messiah. To: Those who have received faith that is as valuable as ours through the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus the Messiah.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
From Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ. To those who have obtained a faith that is as valuable as ours, a faith based on the approval that comes from our God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the'saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and Apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who with us have a part in the same holy faith in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained equal faith with us in the justice of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, bondman and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have received like precious faith with us through the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Savior Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a bondservant and Apostle of Jesus Christ: To those to whom there has been allotted the same precious faith as that which is ours through the righteousness of our God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
................................................................................
................................................................................
Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:


In all cases, the tense is that the Great God, and Jesus Christ, are one and the same. They do not separate the two subjects in the passage, as in your passages.

most, you have Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.

the others, Great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ. (I'm sure you'll argue that this means that it is separated because of the And our.... but there is no clause separation. Much like if you said something like "she is our aunt and our friend." Same subject.



so then, what are these "Translations" you are using?

Which translation agrees with Titus 1:4..... "God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior"?

(Tit 1:4 RV) to Titus, my true child after a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Saviour.

 

[Zebra1552]

Don't worry, I'll be patient with you.... it's something I have learned from the Bible.....

So now, what's your argument????

Go back and read it.

 

[Zebra1552]

Boy, you sure lack the Christian attitude that Christ taught. You certainly don't make me feel that you are lovingly sharing the good news of the Gospel. Maybe that's because you don't understand it. I don't claim to be a Christian, so I have an excuse if you don't find me Christ like. What is your excuse?

I don't care how I make you feel. Given your lack of logic on this and any other thread I've seen you in (even the ones you've stalked me in), your feelings are the least of my concerns. You don't know how I live my life. You only know how I deal with frustrating people on the internet- I call it what it is. It's called being honest and concerned. It's also called being sick of being disrespected, mocked, and ridiculed by one particular member for an extended period of time. While you sit there and attack my character, you fail to realize that your character isn't even close to a shining example of respect, nevermind anything remotely Christain. Respect is something that is worldwide that Christianity happens to endorse, yet you ignore it because the mods let you get away with it.

You called me a heretic. In one way I find that quite amusing. It's a word that was used by the barbarians of the middle ages. You know, the ones that burnt people alive at the stake. But, also I find it sad when so called enlighten modern day man uses it as a tool for intimidation.

I would hope the term 'hypocrite' would concern you more. I am merely pointing out the obvious. Your understandings are in direct contradiction with Scripture itself, and you claim that Scripture is your basis for your argument.

If somebody was given the Bible for the first time and was free of Church doctrine and theology, they would most certainly not discover God a trinity.

Then show us such a person, and show us that it is actually a logical conclusion by giving us more than circular arguments.

The most obvious reason would be that the word itself appears nowhere in the Bible. Then there are other obvious reasons like, Jesus is called, "The Son of God" in countless passages, but nowhere in scripture is Jesus called, "God the Son."

Check out John 3:18, 36; 5:25, 6:27, 10:36, and an assortment of other verses found in John where Jesus refers to himself in the third person.

Joh 19:6 So when the chief priests and the officers saw Him, they cried out saying, "Crucify, crucify!" Pilate *said to them, "Take Him yourselves and crucify Him, for I find no guilt in Him."
Joh 19:7 The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

That's another kicker for you.

Jesus calls the Father, "His God and our God". Jesus said, "the Father is greater than the Son." The Father SENT His Son as sacrifice. He did not send Himself. God cannot die, Jesus did. God cannot be tempted, Jesus was.

Your argument here presupposes that Jesus cannot be fully God and fully man, then points out that Jesus cannot be God. It is fallacious from the get go, it is circular.

I could go on and on with obvious passages that would prove to any unindoctrinated open minded person that, God the father is one God, and Jesus His Son is the Messiah. But I know it would fall on deaf ears to those that prefer the word of 4th century man rather than the Holy Writ.

Sorry, I prefer to let the text speak for itself rather than reading into it my own understanding and opinion.

You have given Christians on this thread and others nothing but grief. Nothing but your own blasted opinion and your own presuppositions, despite repeated requests to back your arguments by myself and others. From all appearances, you are hear just to further 'your own understanding' and ridicule anyone else's. I am not asking because I want to see you gone. I am asking because I have seen you hound me in plenty of threads and comment only on my posts. I am asking because I have seen nothing from you that indicates you're searching for anything. This is not my understanding only, others have noticed it too. I personally do not understand why the mods haven't done anything about it. If I were anywhere but the internet, it would be considered stalking, rude, and impolite. Not to mention childish and immature.

 

[scriptures]

Go back and read it.

It's better to re-post them...... Anyway I glance at them..... they are empty.... usual reasoning from your camp.....

 

[scriptures]

I said that he is both fully God and fully man. I am very sure, because that is the context of John 17- he is praying first for himself, then for his disciples, then those his disciples will reach. And he is not praying to 'his' God, he is praying to THE God, YHWH.

Just where in JH17 did it say that Jesus is fully God and fully man? quotation please.....

 

[scriptures]

Hm. Maybe because he's praying? Making a request, seeing as he's the Son?

Maybe???? You are not sure of your belief????

 

[Gary51]

I don't care how I make you feel.

Yes, that is my point, about your un-Christ like attitude...

Sorry I didn't read the rest of your post... the first part put me off.

Enjoy.

BTW, my posts hold fast to the truth that Elohim is our one God, and Jesus Christ is His Only begotten Son. No mystery there!

 

[Gary51]

Welcome back Gary, I was surprised your not even a christian? You are Biblically sound, what holds you back?

I don't call myself a Christian yet because I'm still searching.

I used to be a traditional Christian, until I started thinking for myself. That's when I saw a difference between what the Church teaches and what the Bible teaches. Not really the same thing, are they!

The is an old saying, "A wise man changes his mind, a fool never does".... Yes, I changed my mind from being a part of mainstream Christianity... A wise move me thinks.

 

[Zebra1552]

Yes, that is my point, about your un-Christ like attitude...

Sorry I didn't read the rest of your post... the first part put me off.

Enjoy.

BTW, my posts hold fast to the truth that Elohim is our one God, and Jesus Christ is His Only begotten Son. No mystery there!

Christ insulted the Pharisees, Gary, and He didn't care what they felt about it. He cared about proclaiming the truth with false teachers for the sake of the people.

No, your post holds fast to an incomplete doctrine based on your own notions of what the Bible says rather than what is there. And if you really are 50 some years old, Gary, I would think you could have the maturity to listen to what other people have to say. You're really only proving what I just posted when you give me posts like this one.

 

[Zebra1552]

Just where in JH17 did it say that Jesus is fully God and fully man? quotation please.....

I didn't say that, sorry. I repeated what I claimed, then answered a question.

 

[Zebra1552]

Maybe???? You are not sure of your belief????

I've already told you that I am sure and why I am sure. Apparently you missed it or are ignoring it.

 

[scriptures]

I've already told you that I am sure and why I am sure. Apparently you missed it or are ignoring it.

Then what's the use of "Maybe"????? doubt????