Did Jesus claim Divinity?

[Gary51]

I agree that he's God incarnate. He created everything.
I like the explanations people have given here that show his divinity.

So you must know and understand the phrase, "Eternally Begotten" then....

Would you mind explaining it to me?

 

[Yekcidmij]

I agree that he's God incarnate. He created everything.
I like the explanations people have given here that show his divinity.

Here's what I think is a good one at Jesus' trial:

Matt 26:63 But Jesus was silent. The high priest said to him, “I charge you under oath by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” 26:64 Jesus said to him, “You have said it yourself. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 26:65 Then the high priest tore his clothes and declared, “He has blasphemed! Why do we still need witnesses? Now you have heard the blasphemy!

Why does the high priest accuse Jesus of blasphemy? Answering affirmitively to the question "Are you the Messiah" wasn't blasphemy. There were plenty of people around Jesus' time that claimed to be the messiah. Jesus, in his response, pulls from Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 to explain himself.

Psalm 110:1 Here is the Lord’s proclamation1 to my lord:2 “Sit down at my right hand3 until I make your enemies your footstool!”​

1 1 tn The word נְאֻם (né’um) is used frequently in the OT of a formal divine announcement through a prophet.

2 2 sn My lord. In the psalm’s original context the speaker is an unidentified prophetic voice in the royal court. In the course of time the psalm is applied to each successive king in the dynasty and ultimately to the ideal Davidic king. NT references to the psalm understand David to be speaking about his “lord,” the Messiah. (See Matt 22:43–45; Mark 12:36–37; Luke 20:42–44; Acts 2:34–35).





3 tn To sit at the “right hand” of the king was an honor (see 1 Kgs 2:19). In Ugaritic myth (CTA 4 v. 108–10) the artisan god Kothar-and Khasis is described as sitting at the right hand of the storm god Baal. See G. R. Driver, Canaanite Myths and Legends, 61–62.

sn The Lord’s invitation to the Davidic king to sit down at his right hand reflects the king’s position as the Lord’s vice-regent.​

Dan 7:9 “While I was watching, thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took his seat.​

....​

7:13 I was watching in the night visions, “And with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man was approaching. He went up to the Ancient of Days and was escorted before him.​

Jesus quotes from Dan 7 and Ps 110 in his response to explain what he was claiming. What was blasphemous was, for one, the claim that he was going to share the throne of GOD. Second, only in Dan 7:13 do we see "one like the son of man" riding on clouds. In every other Old Testament passage, and there aren't too many, the person riding on the clouds was YHWH Himself:

Deut 33:26 There is no one like God, O Jeshurun,​

who rides through the heavens to help you,

on the clouds in majesty.​

Psalm 68:32 O kingdoms of the earth, sing to God!​

Sing praises to the Lord, (Selah)

68:33 to the one who rides through the sky from ancient times!
Look! He thunders loudly​

68:34 Acknowledge God’s power,

his sovereignty over Israel,
and the power he reveals in the skies!​

Psalm 104:1 Praise the Lord, O my soul!​

O YHWH my God, you are magnificent.

You are robed in splendor and majesty.
104:2 He covers himself with light as if it were a garment.
He stretches out the skies like a tent curtain,
104:3 and lays the beams of the upper rooms of his palace on the rain clouds.
He makes the clouds his chariot,
and travels along on the wings of the wind.​

Isaiah 19:1 Here is a message about Egypt:​

Look, YHWH rides on a swift-moving cloud

and approaches Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him;
the Egyptians lose their courage.​

(See also Psalm 29 where God is described as a storm forming over Lebanon)

In other Ancient Near Easten beliefs the cloud rider was always a deity (eg. Ba'al).



Jesus, in this double quote to Ciaphas, claimed that He was going to share the throne of YHWH, and not only that, but He used the imagery in Dan. 7 to describe His vindication. Jesus was going to be the one riding on the clouds. No wonder Ciaphas tore his robe and screamed blasphemy - he understood perfectly what Jesus had just said.


Did Jesus claim to be God? Yes. This is a simple example from the gospels. There are plenty.

 

[FrederickM]

This is interesting I always thought Jesus was God's son and whom God was with the whole time and not God himself.

 

[Nadiine]

This is interesting I always thought Jesus was God's son and whom God was with the whole time and not God himself.

Ya... the whole "Let US make man in OUR own image" thing?
Just who was God talking to there, aliens?
(man is only made in God's image and Jesus was the one who did the creating of us)

You'de think that would be a pretty good clue.
Not to mention the verses that call Him GOD outright..... they claim they want proof He's called God, you hand it to them & they try to shred it apart as if it doesn't exist.

 

[Nadiine]

Here's what I think is a good one at Jesus' trial:



Why does the high priest accuse Jesus of blasphemy? Answering affirmitively to the question "Are you the Messiah" wasn't blasphemy. There were plenty of people around Jesus' time that claimed to be the messiah. Jesus, in his response, pulls from Psalm 110 and Daniel 7 to explain himself.
















Jesus quotes from Dan 7 and Ps 110 in his response to explain what he was claiming. What was blasphemous was, for one, the claim that he was going to share the throne of GOD. Second, only in Dan 7:13 do we see "one like the son of man" riding on clouds. In every other Old Testament passage, and there aren't too many, the person riding on the clouds was YHWH Himself:



























(See also Psalm 29 where God is described as a storm forming over Lebanon)

In other Ancient Near Easten beliefs the cloud rider was always a deity (eg. Ba'al).



Jesus, in this double quote to Ciaphas, claimed that He was going to share the throne of YHWH, and not only that, but He used the imagery in Dan. 7 to describe His vindication. Jesus was going to be the one riding on the clouds. No wonder Ciaphas tore his robe and screamed blasphemy - he understood perfectly what Jesus had just said.


Did Jesus claim to be God? Yes. This is a simple example from the gospels. There are plenty.

Hey these are awesome - I'm going to check them out today in my bible study time.
Thanks for adding these other views. The one view I think proves they knew He was claiming to be God (ie. blasphemy) is with the Sanhedrin they blindfolded Him & then struck Him. They told him to tell them who had struck Him without Him seeing who it was - it was asking a supernatural claim of Jesus to know who hit Him without physically seeing who it was. (that meshes with your additional information on Jesus claims while with them too).

You don't ask a normal person who isn't claiming to have supernatural ability to do something humanly impossible.

 

[Gary51]

So you must know and understand the phrase, "Eternally Begotten" then....

Would you mind explaining it to me?

Any takers on this?

I believe there is division on the "Begotten" aspect of Jesus.

Some believe He was not begotten until His Human birth... While others believe He was "Eternally Begotten". However, the phrase "Eternally Begotten" is not in scripture, and I have no understanding of what "Eternally Begotten" means.

 

[Nadiine]

Any takers on this?

I believe there is division on the "Begotten" aspect of Jesus.

Some believe He was not begotten until His Human birth... While others believe He was "Eternally Begotten". However, the phrase "Eternally Begotten" is not in scripture, and I have no understanding of what "Eternally Begotten" means.

I don't use "eternally begotten"... (but it's clearly taught that Christ is eternal & was with God clear back before the creation - AS the CREATOR of all things & principalities & powers. All life.).

The problem in what you're seeking to do is this issue would only act to refute other verses that PLAINLY teach Christ's Deity elsewhere.
Again using 1 verse to usurp many others. Self refutation.
It only makes the Bible faulty and useless to teach one consistent truth if you're going to use it that way.

It teaches heresy right now if Jesus isn't God.

It's written plainly - it's a matter of accepting it or not.
And biblically, Jesus said that the truth of His identity is something the Father has to reveal to us - if not, people won't get it.
It's a spiritual discernment issue - given plainly, yet hidden. Just like the parables Christ used on the crowds.

You see this even after Jesus' resurrection - He was walking on the road with His own disciples and they didn't recognize Him until God gave them the ability. Same with scripture understanding when it says Jesus opened their understanding. It's a supernatural giving from God in what people grasp.

Scripture itself is spiritually discernable - many don't get it even tho it's clear to others.

 

[Gary51]

Thanks for that...

I look forward to other opinions

 

[Yekcidmij]

Any takers on this?

I believe there is division on the "Begotten" aspect of Jesus.

Some believe He was not begotten until His Human birth... While others believe He was "Eternally Begotten". However, the phrase "Eternally Begotten" is not in scripture, and I have no understanding of what "Eternally Begotten" means.

I think "eternally begotten" was just a summary that's in the nicene creed. I think the authors of the creed were doing their best to sum up what scripture said, and that's a phrase they used among others ("light of light", "true God of true God", "eternally begotten, not made", etc..).

I think "only begotten son" as used in John (Jn 1:18, 3:16) refers to Jesus' uniqeness; His unique status.


In Psalm 2, the King is refered to as God's "begotten" son since the king had a unique status in relation to God and God's people:

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying ,
...

2:6 Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
"I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

And in Heb 11, Isaac is called Abrahams "only begotten son" as Isaac would be the son that the covenant was fulfilled through:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son

I think John uses the term "begotten son" to refer at least to Jesus' status as Messiah and King, but I think Johns gospel takes it a step further and refers to Jesus as the "begotten son" in the sense that Jesus has a unique relation to the Father in that Jesus is somehow equal with Him; Jesus was the visible image of the invisible Father.

As far as why the nicene council attached "eternally" onto "begotten", I think it's fairly easy to see. There are several passages from which they probably got the idea of Jesus' eternality. The familiar ones being John 1, 8, 10, and 14 where Jesus says things about being "before Abraham" or Jesus was "the Word with God in the beginning", etc.. There are some more probably lesser known passages that show the same thing. Take an interesting passage from Jude which seems to place Jesus in the pillar of fire/cloud at the Exodus and possibly responsible for judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah:

Jude 1:4 For certain men have secretly slipped in among you – men who long ago were marked out for the condemnation I am about to describe – ungodly men who have turned the grace of our God into a license for evil and who deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
1:5 Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all ) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe. 1:6 You also know that the angels who did not keep within their proper domain but abandoned their own place of residence, he has kept in eternal chains in utter darkness, locked up for the judgment of the great Day. 1:7 So also Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns, since they indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire in a way similar to these angels, are now displayed as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire.

And there are other curious passages in the gospels that probably caught their eye:

Matt 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

What did Jesus say that for?

Matt 12:42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon – and now, something greater than Solomon is here!

What does that mean?

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things written about himself in all the scriptures.

John 5:45 “Do not suppose that I will accuse you before the Father. The one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have placed your hope. 79 5:46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me.

John 1:45 Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the law, and the prophets also wrote about – Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

Appearantly Jesus and some other people thought that Moses wrote about Jesus. Where exactly did they find that?


It's understandable that the people at the nicence council viewed Jesus as unique and somehow eternal. I think they figured the best way to reflect that was with the phrase: "light of light, true God of true God, eternally begotten not made". It's a hard thing to try to sum up in so few words and it seems to me that they did a pretty good job.

 

[johnd]

Did Jesus say he is a God?

Sure, many times.

Genesis 17:1
1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless.

Genesis 31:13
13 I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Now leave this land at once and go back to your native land.’”

Exodus 3:6
6 Then he said, “I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Exodus 3:14-15
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

Isaiah 43:10-11
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.

John 14:26
26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 1:3
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Colossians 1:13-18
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

Isaiah 44:24
24 “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,

Genesis 1:1
1 In the beginning JESUS created the heavens and the earth.

(Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.)

The evidence is in, Jesus_Islam, from Genesis to Revelation Jesus is God. He made the claims to be God. Proved it by the evidence and his abilities. All you have to do now is accept the facts.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Thanks for that...

I look forward to other opinions

I gave you mine already . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes!
and MIGHTY GOD, HO THEOS (THE GOD), YHWY OF HOSTS (armies)...
CREATOR OF ALL THINGS...

(you might have forgotten to add those by accident)

All of them when combined show us that there is 1 true God, consisting of 3 separate & distinct persons who all 3 perform the acts of God, AS GOD, in complete unity together.

Small correction for you sister

NOT separate . . . just distinct. Otherwise we have three gods and accusations of tri-theism can stand.

 

[Gary51]

I gave you mine already . . .

Yes I remember... but it did not include the phrase, "Eternally Begotten"... just, "Begotten."

 

[Gary51]

I think "eternally begotten" was just a summary that's in the nicene creed. I think the authors of the creed were doing their best to sum up what scripture said, and that's a phrase they used among others ("light of light", "true God of true God", "eternally begotten, not made", etc..).

Thanks for that...

If the idea of "Eternally Begotten" is linked to the Nicene Creed, wouldn't that mean that 4th century Christians did not believe that Jesus was begotten at His human birth?

I've spoken to many Trinitarians that Believe the phrase, "The Only Begotten Son Of God," refers to His human birth....

Isn't that why, "Eternally Begotten" was made up, as to avoid confusion?

I think "only begotten son" as used in John (Jn 1:18, 3:16) refers to Jesus' uniqeness; His unique status.

But, begotten is begotten... Jesus is unique no matter what. If Jesus is eternal, why give Him a title that would under any other circumstance suggest a beginning.

It makes little sense to me...

Here is a title that would make sense, and would probably be universally understood...

"Jesus the only eternal unbegotten Son of God"...

Now that would make sense.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Thanks for that...

If the idea of "Eternally Begotten" is linked to the Nicene Creed, wouldn't that mean that 4th century Christians did not believe that Jesus was begotten at His human birth?

I've spoken to many Trinitarians that Believe the phrase, "The Only Begotten Son Of God," refers to His human birth....

Isn't that why, "Eternally Begotten" was made up, as to avoid confusion?

But, begotten is begotten... Jesus is unique no matter what. If Jesus is eternal, why give Him a title that would under any other circumstance suggest a beginning.

It makes little sense to me...

Here is a title that would make sense, and would probably be universally understood...

"Jesus the only eternal unbegotten Son of God"...

Now that would make sense.

I think the nicence creed qualifies why they use "begotten" instead of "unbegotten". "Unbegotten" seems to imply seperate/dinstinct from the Father, and that wasn't their intent. They use "begotten" and surround it with phrases like:

"light of light"
"true God of true God"
"...not made"
"one substance"


The attempt, I think, is to try to show unity yet diversity at the same time. A hard thing to do. They are trying to show that Jesus is one with the Father, proceeding from the Father, yet somehow distinct. Confusing sure, but it is grounded in scripture (and it's Jewish at that).

(b. Sanh 38a)

Our Rabbis taught: Man was created alone.And why so? — That the Sadducees might not say: There are many ruling powers in Heaven.

....

Our Rabbis taught: Adam was created on the eve of Sabbath. And why? — Lest the Sadducees say: The Holy One, blessed be He, had a partner in His work of creation.

......

For it is written: Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars. She hath prepared her meat, she hath mingled her wine, she hath also furnished her table. She hath sent forth her maidens, she calleth upon the highest places of the city. Wisdom hath builded her house, — this is the attribute of the Holy One, blessed be He, who created the world by wisdom. She hath hewn out her seven pillars, — these are the seven days of creation. She hath prepared her meat, she hath mingled her wine, she hath also furnished her table, — these are the seas and the rivers and all the other requirements of the world. She hath sent forth her maidens, she calleth, — this refers to Adam and Eve.

(cf: Prov 8-9)



Matt 11:18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 11:19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”



Is Jesus God's wisdom in the flesh?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes I remember... but it did not include the phrase, "Eternally Begotten"... just, "Begotten."

I think that it confuses the topic.

 

[Gary51]

I think the nicence creed qualifies why they use "begotten" instead of "unbegotten". "Unbegotten" seems to imply seperate/dinstinct from the Father, and that wasn't their intent. They use "begotten" and surround it with phrases like:

"light of light"
"true God of true God"
"...not made"
"one substance"

If the term Eternally Unbegotten was in scpriture, there would be no confusion, it would be very simple to grasp.

Eternally = No Beginning
Unbegotten = Not Offspring

The man-made term, "Eternally Begotten" makes no sense. Surrounding it with poetic phrases and calling it a title does not make it a logical statement.

The biblical statement reads, "The Only Begotten Son"

Begotten = Offspring

Which leads many to believe this refers to His Human birth... Conceived of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Yekcidmij]

The man-made term, "Eternally Begotten" makes no sense. Surrounding it with poetic phrases and calling it a title does not make it a logical statement.

Feel free to demonstrate the illogic. That's going to be a tough mountain to climb though.

The biblical statement reads, "The Only Begotten Son"

Begotten = Offspring

Which leads many to believe this refers to His Human birth... Conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Again:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son


Is Abraham talking about physical birth with Isaac? Was Isaac Abraham's "only begotten son". No. There was Ishmael. "Only begotten son" doesn't necessarily refer to physical birth. Here it's talking about Isaac as being unique in the sense that the covenant is going to be fulfilled through him. The only other example of where a "begotten son" type of phrase occurs (that I'm aware of) is in Psalm 2:

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying ,
...

2:6 Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
"I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.



That doesn't refer to birth either. That's refering to the kings unique relation to God and to Israel. In neither case does "begotten" refer to physical birth.

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten son...."

Jn 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him "


The phrase is, like Hebrews, used to demonstrate Jesus' uniqeness in His relation to the Father. What exactly that uniqueness really is and what it entails is what John goes at lengths to show in his gospel.


I think the Nicene council is trying to summarize a lot of information from the entire bible when they say "eternally begotten" and aren't necessarily trying to repeat the phrase as it occurs in John 1:18 and 3:16.

 

[Gary51]

Again:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son


Is Abraham talking about physical birth with Isaac? Was Isaac Abraham's "only begotten son". No. There was Ishmael. "Only begotten son" doesn't necessarily refer to physical birth. Here it's talking about Isaac as being unique in the sense that the covenant is going to be fulfilled through him. The only other example of where a "begotten son" type of phrase occurs (that I'm aware of) is in Psalm 2:

Psalm 2:2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel together, Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying ,
...

2:6 Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."
"I will declare the decree: The LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.



That doesn't refer to birth either. That's refering to the kings unique relation to God and to Israel. In neither case does "begotten" refer to physical birth.

Jn 3:16 "For God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten son...."

Jn 1:18 "No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him "


The phrase is, like Hebrews, used to demonstrate Jesus' uniqeness in His relation to the Father. What exactly that uniqueness really is and what it entails is what John goes at lengths to show in his gospel.


I think the Nicene council is trying to summarize a lot of information from the entire bible when they say "eternally begotten" and aren't necessarily trying to repeat the phrase as it occurs in John 1:18 and 3:16.

I'm talking about Jesus, not Abraham...

Logic is left behind, when one incorporates poetic licence.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7269600

 

[Nadiine]

I'm talking about Jesus, not Abraham...

Logic is left behind, when one incorporates poetic licence.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7269600

He's relaying that the TERM "only begotten" doesn't mean SIRED (created by another), or that one is an ONLY child - or the first and only child...
In the use of the term "only begotten" of Abraham, it meant neither.

I had given the same information in a previous post about this term.
and He's right.
When the bible applies the term in other ways, you cannot hold it dogmatically as meaning something else when it clearly has other meanings.

Our English unfortunately hacks the Bible's word meanings and we lose alot in the translation for sure. This is why we need teachers to teach us these details for proper understanding.
(AND THE HOLY SPIRIT SURE WOULD HELP TOO)