Did God send this virus into the world

[renniks]

They were confused. As scripture developed clear cut doctrines formed and we no see longer see through a glass darkly as they did. But now face to face.

So, the ones who learned directly from the Apostles were confused. That's hilarious.

 

[renniks]

Pelagius and Arminius end up in the same place. Trusting in free will instead of Christ to save them.

That's just a flat out fallacy.

 

[Dave L]

That's just a flat out fallacy.

Pelagius = Free will. Arminius = Free will with a smokescreen.

 

[Dave L]

So, the ones who learned directly from the Apostles were confused. That's hilarious.

Who learned directly from the Apostles? And what did he teach?

 

[renniks]

Who learned directly from the Apostles? And what did he teach?

Polycarp. Look into it.

 

[renniks]

Pelagius = Free will. Arminius = Free will with a smokescreen.

The bible teaches free will from the first page to the last.

 

[Dave L]

The bible teaches free will from the first page to the last.

Not really. The OT is ALL free will and Law. But the law cannot save.

The NT is ALL grace that saves apart from Law.

Free will turns grace into Law that cannot save.

 

[Dave L]

Polycarp. Look into it.

What did he teach that didn't agree with the Ecumenical Creeds?

 

[renniks]

Free will turns grace into Law that cannot save

That doesn't make any sense.

 

[renniks]

What did he teach that didn't agree with the Ecumenical Creeds?

The first 300-350 years AD we had a complete agreement among the early church fathers that man has a free will, that we are not ”once saved always saved”

The only ones that taught against freewill were the gnostics, a heretical sect.

I already gave you quoted on free will from iraneus, Polycarps student. Apparently, you must think the apostle John taught heresy (according to you,) to his student Polycarp.

 

[Dave L]

The first 300-350 years AD we had a complete agreement among the early church fathers that man has a free will, that we are not ”once saved always saved”

The only ones that taught against freewill were the gnostics, a heretical sect.

I already gave you quoted on free will from iraneus, Polycarps student. Apparently, you must think the apostle John taught heresy (according to you,) to his student Polycarp.

What is your reference?

 

[Dave L]

That doesn't make any sense.

This is what happens. The OT Law cannot save. It was a rule God forced wicked people to obey under threat of death. He also promises temporal earthly promises fort obedience. That's it.

You turn the gospel back into this same Law then you speak of it as Law. When you say the eternal rewards are conditioned on obedience. And a refusal to accept the terms results in eternal death.

Both depend on free will which rules out salvation by grace.

The real gospel is not an offer. It is an announcement that Christ paid for the sins of all who believe the gospel. And if you believe, you need to repent and be baptized and follow the teaching of Christ in your daily life.

 

[renniks]

The real gospel is not an offer. It is an announcement that Christ paid for the sins of all who believe the gospel. And if you believe, you need to repent and be baptized and follow the teaching of Christ in your daily life.

Lol, which you can not do, according to your theology, unless God irresistibly causes you to. So the whole thing becomes a game God is playing with people where he constantly asks them to obey while only causing some to obey. It's just God pulling strings on puppets. There's no gospel if there's no real choices. There's only what has been fated for you to be.

 

[renniks]

You turn the gospel back into this same Law then you speak of it as Law. When you say the eternal rewards are conditioned on obedience. And a refusal to accept the terms results in eternal death.

Only that's exactly what scripture teaches, that refusing the gospel leads to eternal death. We are not under the law. Grace isn't irresistible. Grace goes like this: My father gave me a piece of land. True story. I didn't earn it. I didn't really deserve it for any reason. It was a free gift. I would have been foolish to reject it, but I certainly could have. I could have been like many people who reject grace because they want to earn anything that is given to them. It's free, it's not earned, but grace still has to be accepted.

 

[Dave L]

Lol, which you can not do, according to your theology, unless God irresistibly causes you to. So the whole thing becomes a game God is playing with people where he constantly asks them to obey while only causing some to obey. It's just God pulling strings on puppets. There's no gospel if there's no real choices. There's only what has been fated for you to be.

You are trying to Calvinize Arminianism and it won't work. Start clean and examine Calvinism for what it is. Calvinism VS Arminianism Comparison Chart by L. Boettner

 

[Dave L]

Only that's exactly what scripture teaches, that refusing the gospel leads to eternal death. We are not under the law. Grace isn't irresistible. Grace goes like this: My father gave me a piece of land. True story. I didn't earn it. I didn't really deserve it for any reason. It was a free gift. I would have been foolish to reject it, but I certainly could have. I could have been like many people who reject grace because they want to earn anything that is given to them. It's free, it's not earned, but grace still has to be accepted.

They are already damned. You cannot believe the gospel unless you are already saved by grace.

 

[renniks]

What is your reference?

The early churches writings are my reference.

Gnostics also believed that mankind was wholly evil and some sects even renounced marriage and procreation. They also believed in two gods, one evil god and one good god. Their teachings are believed to have influenced Saint Augustine in the development of his theology of ”total depravity” of mankind and concept of God. For nine years St. Augustine adhered to Manichaeism, a Persian philosophy proclaimed in southern Babylonia (Iraq) that taught a doctrine of ”total depravity” and the claim that they were the ”elect.” He then turned to skepticism. Next, Augustine was attracted to the philosophy of Neoplatonism. He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine’s writings. It is very easy to follow the trail of John Calvin’s theology from the pagan religion of Mani in Babylonia to his writings in France and Geneva”

Tertullian (Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus) 160-225 AD

Apologist and a polemicist against heresy. He is perhaps most famous for being the oldest extant Latin writer to use the term Trinity. Cyprian’s teacher.

I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience of resistance. (c. 207, Vol. 3, pp. 300-301

 

[renniks]

They are already damned. You cannot believe the gospel unless you are already saved by grace.

Circular reasoning. Everybody is damned unless they have the gospel forced into them by God is what you mean.

It's theological fatalism.

 

[Dave L]

Circular reasoning. Everybody is damned unless they have the gospel forced into them by God is what you mean.

It's theological fatalism.

That's your level of understanding. Not what scripture says.

 

[Dave L]

The early churches writings are my reference.

Gnostics also believed that mankind was wholly evil and some sects even renounced marriage and procreation. They also believed in two gods, one evil god and one good god. Their teachings are believed to have influenced Saint Augustine in the development of his theology of ”total depravity” of mankind and concept of God. For nine years St. Augustine adhered to Manichaeism, a Persian philosophy proclaimed in southern Babylonia (Iraq) that taught a doctrine of ”total depravity” and the claim that they were the ”elect.” He then turned to skepticism. Next, Augustine was attracted to the philosophy of Neoplatonism. He blended these beliefs with his later Gnostic Christian teachings. His teachings were in turn passed on to John Calvin in his extensive study of Augustine’s writings. It is very easy to follow the trail of John Calvin’s theology from the pagan religion of Mani in Babylonia to his writings in France and Geneva”

Tertullian (Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus) 160-225 AD

Apologist and a polemicist against heresy. He is perhaps most famous for being the oldest extant Latin writer to use the term Trinity. Cyprian’s teacher.

I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience of resistance. (c. 207, Vol. 3, pp. 300-301

Let's have some solid backing for this. Any reliable sources?