Did God predestine the Fall?

[Hammster]

Maybe you forgot.

No, I didn’t. But if you find where I have, let me know.

 

[dad]

It’s prescriptive, not indicative. You have it backwards.

Who would love Jesus unless He first loved us?

 

[dad]

No, we don’t choose to be regenerated. Why would we? We hate God. He’s our enemy. We don’t seek him. This describes the unregenerate. God’s love changes us, though.

So you say we do not choose to get this 'regeneration' that people need to be saved. OK. You do realize that this means we do not choose to get saved in your logic?

 

[dad]

Their choice, made freely, is to continue to hate God and reject him. You seem to think that’s not a choice.

Some choose to get saved. No middle man process of some special enabling wand waving magic needed.

 

[dad]

No, we don’t choose to be regenerated. Why would we? We hate God. He’s our enemy. We don’t seek him. This describes the unregenerate. God’s love changes us, though.

There we have it, you say NO choice is involved in this made up step of pre salvation regeneration.
( I say made up because we cannot be regenerated before we get saved/generated)

You also claim if I read you right, that no one gets saved unless they are first regenerated. By extension it seems you also suggest that the unsaved cannot be regenerated. Feel free to correct any item if it does not fit your scheme of things.

 

[dad]

Their choice, made freely, is to continue to hate God and reject him. You seem to think that’s not a choice.

I know it is a choice. However being a choice that means they could choose freely also to go to heaven instead. You seem to suggest they can't because they didn't get that extra special pre arranged no choice involved 'regeneration' thingie.

 

[Hammster]

Who would love Jesus unless He first loved us?

That’s not the point.

Let’s look a little further.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. - 1 John 5:1

What is John saying? That unless you are born again, you don’t believe Jesus is the Christ. So we are born again, we love the Father, and we love the Son.

 

[Hammster]

So you say we do not choose to get this 'regeneration' that people need to be saved. OK. You do realize that this means we do not choose to get saved in your logic?

Yes. And it’s not my logic. It’s biblical theology.

 

[Hammster]

Some choose to get saved. No middle man process of some special enabling wand waving magic needed.

I agree. I’ve never mentioned a waving of a magic wand.

 

[Hammster]

There we have it, you say NO choice is involved in this made up step of pre salvation regeneration.
( I say made up because we cannot be regenerated before we get saved/generated)

You also claim if I read you right, that no one gets saved unless they are first regenerated. By extension it seems you also suggest that the unsaved cannot be regenerated. Feel free to correct any item if it does not fit your scheme of things.

You should turn down the vitriol just a tad.

It’s hard to respond when you are using biblical concepts incorrectly. Regeneration IS salvation, along with justification, sanctification and glorification.

And the unsaved can be regenerated. That’s how you and I were saved. We went from lost to found via regeneration.

 

[Hammster]

I know it is a choice. However being a choice that means they could choose freely also to go to heaven instead. You seem to suggest they can't because they didn't get that extra special pre arranged no choice involved 'regeneration' thingie.

Okay, you are way too bitter. I think it’s time to stop now.

 

[dad]

That’s not the point.

Let’s look a little further.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. - 1 John 5:1

What is John saying? That unless you are born again, you don’t believe Jesus is the Christ. So we are born again, we love the Father, and we love the Son.

No, don't think John is saying that.

Let's dissect it.

1 Jn 5:Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:[/QUOTE]
So if we (choose to try and believe, and accept) Jesus, we then are born of God. Saved. That does not mean we magically somehow are the special few chosen to have believing power on steroids, and THIS is WHY we believe!! You kidding? This simply reminds us that we who believe in Jesus are born of God.

and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

So naturally, now that we are in the Family of God and have Jesus, the Father loves us to smithereens.

NOTHING whatsoever to do with Calvinist pre arranged damnation/salvation.

 

[dad]

And the unsaved can be regenerated. That’s how you and I were saved. We went from lost to found via regeneration.

I look at this verse and see that the holy Ghost gets renewed. One cannot have the Holy Ghost until one decides to ask Jesus for salvation, generally. Correct?

Tit 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Surely you are not trying to tell us we are washed by the Holy Ghost before being saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

That’s not the point.

Let’s look a little further.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. - 1 John 5:1

What is John saying? That unless you are born again, you don’t believe Jesus is the Christ. So we are born again, we love the Father, and we love the Son.

That is a huge point though. That God loves us first.

Not because it says anything about us. But because it shows us something major about who God is in His Holiness. This is the path we all follow. Loving those who do not love us. Praying for those who persecute us.

 

[BBAS 64]

No, don't think John is saying that.

Let's dissect it.

1 Jn 5:Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:

So if we (choose to try and believe, and accept) Jesus, we then are born of God. Saved. That does not mean we magically somehow are the special few chosen to have believing power on steroids, and THIS is WHY we believe!! You kidding? This simply reminds us that we who believe in Jesus are born of God.
So naturally, now that we are in the Family of God and have Jesus, the Father loves us to smithereens.

NOTHING whatsoever to do with Calvinist pre arranged damnation/salvation.[/QUOTE]


Good Day, Dad

Still waiting...

Calvinist pre arranged damnation

Primary source please.... you baseless assertion is growing old.

In Him,

Bill

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes. And it’s not my logic. It’s biblical theology.

I disagree a bit.

Regeneration is Biblical of course, but at what step or point in the process it takes place is what we are discussing

 

[Hammster]

I disagree a bit.

Regeneration is Biblical of course, but at what step or point in the process it takes place is what we are discussing

Right. And I’ve posted passages that show that it precedes faith. Also, I’ve shown that you cannot please God in the flesh, which would describe the unregenerate.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Right. And I’ve posted passages that show that it precedes faith. Also, I’ve shown that you cannot please God in the flesh, which would describe the unregenerate.

It will always e one of those disputed doctrines on both sides. It just will.

 

[Hammster]

It will always e one of those disputed doctrines on both sides. It just will.

It really shouldn’t be.

I was in your shoes when I started at CF. Debated those nasty Calvinists all of the time.

So I understand where you’re coming from, and why.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It really shouldn’t be.

I was in your shoes when I started at CF. Debated those nasty Calvinists all of the time.

So I understand where you’re coming from, and why.

Of course. Everyone should flip to my theological side