Did God predestine the Fall?

[redleghunter]

Here's one

Matt 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
So, if they would have heeded, they would have been OK. They were not doomed without choice.

Maybe you can explain why they did not want to be gathered? And then how Jesus told the disciples He chose them?

 

[mark kennedy]

It seems to mean that a body of believers would exist, He chose that because He died to make it possible. Who that 'us' and when they exist are what matter. The 'us' is ANYONE at all on earth of all peoples, that come to Jesus (get saved, believe, etc). If you choose to repent, you become one of us! If your parents taught you right all your life, you basically always were one of us (at least since you decided at some age of reason)(of course even if you die before that age, if one parent is a believer that counts!)

Therefore the 'us' refers to people who choose Jesus.

I didn't ask you what repentance is, I can look that up myself.

Repent, Repentance:: lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," (Vine’s Dictionary G3340 metanoeo)
​

I'm not overly optimistic that this will ever sink in but repentance is a gift of grace:

Thomas Watson (ca. 1620–1686) writes: “Repentance is a grace of God’s Spirit whereby a sinner is inwardly humbled and visibly reformed.” In this simple statement, Watson helps to focus our attention on one of the most important aspects of true repentance, namely that repentance is a “grace of God’s spirit.” (Thomas Watson ca. 1620–1686, taken from The Gift of Repentance by Burk Parsons)
​

It's rather curious, how do you suppose God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, when you were not even born yet, unless he either knew what your choice was or, there were only two choices. I didn't ask you about our choice, I asked you how God chose us in him (Christ), before the foundation of the world. Paul doesn't say you became one of the elect when you chose to repent, he said God chose us. Notice how repentance is contrasted with providence in the definition, not that I think your all that interested in such an important Lexicon definition. Just trying to do my due diligence here while you chase this around the mulberry bush.

Have a nice day
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

Here's one

Matt 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
So, if they would have heeded, they would have been OK. They were not doomed without choice.

You seem to think Calvinists are unaware that there is such a thing as those who refuse to repent:

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” (Acts 7:51-53)
​

Some curse the light and flee to the darkness, others receive the grace of God in Christ. Yet it is God who gives us that light which is the glory of the only begotten of the Father:

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John 1:11-13)
​

Every aspect of salvation is a gift of grace, of course you must repent or perish, I've seen no arguments to the contrary from anyone in this thread. You receive repentance, of course there is a choice, who says otherwise? But you don't achieve repentance, you receive it as a gift of grace. In and of yourself you have no ability to do so or Christ died for nothing (Gal. 2:21).

 

[Hammster]

Here's one

Matt 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
So, if they would have heeded, they would have been OK. They were not doomed without choice.

Context is still king. The woe is against the leaders of Jerusalem. See the previous verses.

Look carefully. It doesn’t say “and you would not be gathered”.

 

[dad]

Maybe you can explain why they did not want to be gathered? And then how Jesus told the disciples He chose them?

Not want to? That seems like choice to me.

 

[dad]

I didn't ask you what repentance is, I can look that up myself.

Repent, Repentance:: lit., "to perceive afterwards" (meta, "after," implying "change," noeo, "to perceive;" nous, "the mind, the seat of moral reflection"), in contrast to pronoeo, "to perceive beforehand," (Vine’s Dictionary G3340 metanoeo)
​

I'm not overly optimistic that this will ever sink in but repentance is a gift of grace:

Thomas Watson (ca. 1620–1686) writes: “Repentance is a grace of God’s Spirit whereby a sinner is inwardly humbled and visibly reformed.” In this simple statement, Watson helps to focus our attention on one of the most important aspects of true repentance, namely that repentance is a “grace of God’s spirit.” (Thomas Watson ca. 1620–1686, taken from The Gift of Repentance by Burk Parsons)​

Regardless of what this guy I never heard of thinks, Jesus points out it is choice.

Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)

See how it works? IF you chose to repent, you live. If not, it's bedtime for bonzo. The choice is up to each man on earth.​

​

It's rather curious, how do you suppose God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, when you were not even born yet, unless he either knew what your choice was or, there were only two choices.

Since you didn't get it the first several times, no problem, I'll try again.

He chose that there would and could be an 'us'. That group of 'us' are only those people that choose to accept Jesus and His gift. So that does not mean an individual before he was born was predestined to be out or in the group! That seems to mean that the fact there could and would be an 'us' was predetermined. WHO that 'us' was depends wholly on who chooses Him. Therefore the equation is this


Those who choose Jesus = us
Those who choose to reject Jesus = not us.

So whoever chooses Jesus is also chosen of Him! Those who choose are the chosen!

I didn't ask you about our choice, I asked you how God chose us in him (Christ), before the foundation of the world. Paul doesn't say you became one of the elect when you chose to repent, he said God chose us.

Yes, He chose that all who choose Him could be saved, because He paid the price. That is how He chose us. That does not mean He gave us no choice to be the chosen!

If all men would repent and believe in Christ all would be chosen! God is no respecter of persons!

Notice how repentance is contrasted with providence in the definition, not that I think your all that interested in such an important Lexicon definition. Just trying to do my due diligence here while you chase this around the mulberry bush.

Providence seems maybe to be how God provided the Way, and repentance is how we avail ourselves of that provision.

 

[dad]

You seem to think Calvinists are unaware that there is such a thing as those who refuse to repent:

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.” (Acts 7:51-53)
​

Some curse the light and flee to the darkness, others receive the grace of God in Christ. Yet it is God who gives us that light which is the glory of the only begotten of the Father:

He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God. (John 1:11-13)
​

Every aspect of salvation is a gift of grace, of course you must repent or perish, I've seen no arguments to the contrary from anyone in this thread. You receive repentance, of course there is a choice, who says otherwise? But you don't achieve repentance, you receive it as a gift of grace. In and of yourself you have no ability to do so or Christ died for nothing (Gal. 2:21).

Here is the Calvie problem...if salvation was not a choice nor damnation, then we have your god tossing most people with no hope or choice into eternal damnation. I do not know that god.

 

[dad]

Context is still king. The woe is against the leaders of Jerusalem. See the previous verses.

Look carefully. It doesn’t say “and you would not be gathered”.

Well, basically the majority of the city would not be at that time, nor in the past, as they refused His messengers and spirit. That did not mean that no one in the country would receive Him, many would.
In either case it depended on their choice!

Israel will call on Jesus before the very end and be saved. But by that time a greater number of Jews would die in unbelief and rebellion. So the 'all' Israel that will be saved will be basically 'all that is left'. Why? Because the ones who chose to die and rebel CHOSE, and the remnant at the end also CHOSE.

 

[JM]

Here is the Calvie problem...if salvation was not a choice nor damnation, then we have your god tossing most people with no hope or choice into eternal damnation. I do not know that god.

I can explain the Gospel if you like? Salvation isn't deserved, it's not a choice...it's a gift of God.

 

[JM]

Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3, 5)
​

​

This passage doesn't mention the will of man - you are assuming.

 

[redleghunter]

Not want to? That seems like choice to me.

Based on the bondage of the will. Which only Christ can rescue us from.

 

[redleghunter]

Here is the Calvie problem...if salvation was not a choice nor damnation, then we have your god tossing most people with no hope or choice into eternal damnation. I do not know that god.

Here’s the problem... that’s not Calvinism.

 

[mark kennedy]

Regardless of what this guy I never heard of thinks, Jesus points out it is choice.​

Ok, you've never heard of William Vine and apparently can't nbe bothered with a simple word search of basic insight into New Testament Greek.

Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

(Luke 13:3, 5)

Again, no one is arguing against repentance. I'm trying to acquaint you with the concept of new birth. Repentance requires a new heart, the natural man at odds with the things of God.

See how it works? IF you chose to repent, you live. If not, it's bedtime for bonzo. The choice is up to each man on earth.

You xhose to recieve the word of God and the promise of the gospel. That seed results in a new nature which is why you must be born again. You keep leacing the gospel out of this.​

Since you didn't get it the first several times, no problem, I'll try again.

Yea lets try this again.

He chose that there would and could be an 'us'. That group of 'us' are only those people that choose to accept Jesus and His gift. So that does not mean an individual before he was born was predestined to be out or in the group! That seems to mean that the fact there could and would be an 'us' was predetermined. WHO that 'us' was depends wholly on who chooses Him. Therefore the equation is this


Those who choose Jesus = us
Those who choose to reject Jesus = not us.

So whoever chooses Jesus is also chosen of Him! Those who choose are the chosen!

Yes, He chose that all who choose Him could be saved, because He paid the price. That is how He chose us. That does not mean He gave us no choice to be the chosen!

If all men would repent and believe in Christ all would be chosen! God is no respecter of persons!



Providence seems maybe to be how God provided the Way, and repentance is how we avail ourselves of that provision.

He xhose Christ, the eternal Son if Gid to procide the righteousness of Gid. Our defective will had to be replaced via new birth, which is not based on our desires or effirts but God's work in Christ.

 

[dad]

I can explain the Gospel if you like? Salvation isn't deserved, it's not a choice...it's a gift of God.

Only if we choose. Sorry if you thought Jesus tossed folks into a burning hell forever with no choice. A child should be able to see He was NOTHING like that.

 

[dad]

​

This passage doesn't mention the will of man - you are assuming.

No. Repenting is a choice. Otherwise why ask anyone to repent!? Ha. What is it about the obvious that is soooo elusive to many here?

 

[dad]

Based on the bondage of the will. Which only Christ can rescue us from.

The bondage of the will is a figment of your dreams. Jesus sets us free and asks us to choose Him. He sets no limits on who He died for! Those who claim the billions who reject the gift of salvation never had any access to Jesus and choice are out of their biblical gourd.

Those cultish Calvinists that claim they were so special and chosen and that the rest of the world had no hope are out of sync with the heart of God.

 

[dad]

Here’s the problem... that’s not Calvinism.

No? So you do think salvation is a choice as well as rejecting Jesus? Out with it.

 

[redleghunter]

The bondage of the will is a figment of your dreams. Jesus sets us free and asks us to choose Him. He sets no limits on who He died for! Those who claim the billions who reject the gift of salvation never had any access to Jesus and choice are out of their biblical gourd.

Those cultish Calvinists that claim they were so special and chosen and that the rest of the world had no hope are out of sync with the heart of God.

More ridiculous claims.

Of course Christ sets us free when He regenerates us and gives us a new heart.

How else are the dead in trespasses made alive other than the act of God.

 

[redleghunter]

No? So you do think salvation is a choice as well as rejecting Jesus? Out with it.

Salvation happens exactly as YHWH commanded in Ezekiel 36:23-27 and John 3:1-8

 

[dad]

Ok, you've never heard of William Vine and apparently can't nbe bothered with a simple word search of basic insight into New Testament Greek.​

The issue is not the insignificance of Bill, but the relation of the word with whatever verses or meanings you seek to claim.

people who repent make a choice to do so.

Again, no one is arguing against repentance. I'm trying to acquaint you with the concept of new birth. Repentance requires a new heart, the natural man at odds with the things of God.

I suggest that being born again brings a new heart! We receive a new heart after we chose to be saved, NOT before.
​

You xhose to recieve the word of God and the promise of the gospel. That seed results in a new nature which is why you must be born again. You keep leacing the gospel out of this.​

I leave no gospel out anywhere ever.

A seed is not what gives a new nature, choosing to receive Jesus does. Otherwise God could have sent UFOs to drop seeds rather than having to come and die and suffer for us.

He xhose Christ, the eternal Son if Gid to procide the righteousness of Gid.

Funny you mentioned trying again. Not sure what this sentence is supposed to say. Try buying and selling a few vowels?

Our defective will had to be replaced via new birth,

Nothing is replaced by a new birth until there IS a new birth.

which is not based on our desires or effirts but God's work in Christ.

He said it is free for the asking for anyone actually. Asking for it is required. So asking isn't a work, but a receiving of a gift. Calling the choosing/asking/accepting salvation is like saying if I reach out and take a Christmas gift, or pick it from under a tree, it is earned!