Did God predestine the Fall?

[dad]

More ridiculous claims.

Calling it ridiculous to point out that Jesus set no limits on who could come to Him and believe and be saved shows us all where you are at. Thanks for that.

Of course Christ sets us free when He regenerates us and gives us a new heart.

How else are the dead in trespasses made alive other than the act of God.

The born again, new heart thingie comes after we repent and ask. Cart...meet horse.

 

[dad]

Salvation happens exactly as YHWH commanded in Ezekiel 36:23-27 and John 3:1-8

Sorry, but spamming chapters that you have demonstrated abysmal ignorance about tells us nothing at all.

The question was.. So you do think salvation is a choice as well as rejecting Jesus is a choice?

Yes, or no is what we need from you here.

 

[Hammster]

Well, basically the majority of the city would not be at that time, nor in the past, as they refused His messengers and spirit. That did not mean that no one in the country would receive Him, many would.
In either case it depended on their choice!

Israel will call on Jesus before the very end and be saved. But by that time a greater number of Jews would die in unbelief and rebellion. So the 'all' Israel that will be saved will be basically 'all that is left'. Why? Because the ones who chose to die and rebel CHOSE, and the remnant at the end also CHOSE.

It still doesn’t say that they rejected Him. It says Jerusalem wasn’t willing to gather like Christ.

 

[mark kennedy]

The issue is not the insignificance of Bill, but the relation of the word with whatever verses or meanings you seek to claim.

people who repent make a choice to do so.

I suggest that being born again brings a new heart! We receive a new heart after we chose to be saved, NOT before.
​

I leave no gospel out anywhere ever.

A seed is not what gives a new nature, choosing to receive Jesus does. Otherwise God could have sent UFOs to drop seeds rather than having to come and die and suffer for us.

Funny you mentioned trying again. Not sure what this sentence is supposed to say. Try buying and selling a few vowels?
Nothing is replaced by a new birth until there IS a new birth.

He said it is free for the asking for anyone actually. Asking for it is required. So asking isn't a work, but a receiving of a gift. Calling the choosing/asking/accepting salvation is like saying if I reach out and take a Christmas gift, or pick it from under a tree, it is earned!

You keep arguing against something I'm not saying and neither is anyone else. You've not responded to a single exposition, have no interest in Christian scholarship and nothing concerning the gospel matters to you in the slightest. You keep chanting repentance is a choice, in circles, endlessly. I'm going to try to find a serious poster, welcome to my ignore list.

 

[JM]

You keep arguing against something I'm not saying and neither is anyone else. You've not responded to a single exposition, have no interest in Christian scholarship and nothing concerning the gospel matters to you in the slightest. You keep chanting repentance is a choice, in circles, endlessly. I'm going to try to find a serious poster, welcome to my ignore list.

He's not paying attention, not your fault.

 

[mark kennedy]

He's not paying attention, not your fault.

I know, sometimes I'll go ahead and try to follow up and see if the tone changes. Best to move on.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[zippy2006]

Because man sinned.

Let me ask you, could God have stopped it?

It would had violated man's free will.

We have an early equivocation in the thread:

1. God plans and ensures the Fall of man
2. God allows man to fall even though he could have prevented it

Do you see that those are not the same thing? Similarly, I could create a robot to murder Julius Caesar or I could see Brutus on his way to murder Caesar and do nothing to prevent him. Those are different acts in both a philosophical and moral sense.

 

[redleghunter]

Sorry, but spamming chapters that you have demonstrated abysmal ignorance about tells us nothing at all.

The question was.. So you do think salvation is a choice as well as rejecting Jesus is a choice?

Yes, or no is what we need from you here.

Sir you have presented absolutely no exegesis of the passages you were presented several times.

 

[redleghunter]

The born again, new heart thingie comes after we repent and ask. Cart...meet horse.

Show me.

 

[redleghunter]

We have an early equivocation in the thread:

1. God plans and ensures the Fall of man
2. God allows man to fall even though he could have prevented it

Do you see that those are not the same thing? Similarly, I could create a robot to murder Julius Caesar or I could see Brutus on his way to murder Caesar and do nothing to prevent him. Those are different acts in both a philosophical and moral sense.

I’d like to see the robot first.

 

[dad]

It still doesn’t say that they rejected Him. It says Jerusalem wasn’t willing to gather like Christ.

No...be gathered BY Christ.

 

[dad]

You keep arguing against something I'm not saying and neither is anyone else. You've not responded to a single exposition, have no interest in Christian scholarship and nothing concerning the gospel matters to you in the slightest. You keep chanting repentance is a choice, in circles, endlessly. I'm going to try to find a serious poster, welcome to my ignore list.

Not what you were saying? Didn't you get asked if you thought man had the actual choice to accept or reject Jesus resulting in their eternal fate? Didn't you side with those who say that it was all pre destined?? Don't blame me if you were not clear, or confused, or unable to focus.

 

[dad]

Sir you have presented absolutely no exegesis of the passages you were presented several times.

I explained the passages had nothing whatsoever to do with man not having a real choice to receive or reject Salvation. We were not doomed to hell, or brats that heaven was reserved for.

 

[dad]

Show me.

Show me how He will answer when we call on Him, if we do not choose to call? Show me how we can be born again of the spirit without asking? Show me how every one that asketh receiveth doesn't really mean asketh?

A google search yielded this

"Salvation is simply a process of confessing and believing. A man must confess that Jesus is Lord, which signifies his realization that Christ must have full rule over his life with all of His righteous requirements. This confession of Christ as Lord also assumes that it is Christ who will work and fulfill His own righteousness within man.

Next, he must believe that God has raised Jesus Christ from the dead. This belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus carries with it the realization that the penalty has been paid for sin and power is provided for man to live a life free from sin. Thus man’s relationship to God is restored. “For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Bible tells us, “For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved” (Romans 10:9-11)."

How To Be Saved


So we need to choose to confess with the mouth, and believe. Some call that repenting...just as those who reject God make a decision, so do we also who accept Him. Your predestination idea renders this useless. We are not just along for the ride, we have a decision to make.

 

[redleghunter]

I explained the passages had nothing whatsoever to do with man not having a real choice to receive or reject Salvation. We were not doomed to hell, or brats that heaven was reserved for.

You did not address the text but kept on with the fallacious argument that we choose God without the intervention of the Holy Spirit quickening us.

 

[redleghunter]

Show me how He will answer when we call on Him, if we do not choose to call? Show me how we can be born again of the spirit without asking? Show me how every one that asketh receiveth doesn't really mean asketh?

A google search yielded this

"Salvation is simply a process of confessing and believing. A man must confess that Jesus is Lord, which signifies his realization that Christ must have full rule over his life with all of His righteous requirements. This confession of Christ as Lord also assumes that it is Christ who will work and fulfill His own righteousness within man.

Next, he must believe that God has raised Jesus Christ from the dead. This belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus carries with it the realization that the penalty has been paid for sin and power is provided for man to live a life free from sin. Thus man’s relationship to God is restored. “For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved. As the Bible tells us, “For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved” (Romans 10:9-11)."

How To Be Saved


So we need to choose to confess with the mouth, and believe. Some call that repenting...just as those who reject God make a decision, so do we also who accept Him. Your predestination idea renders this useless. We are not just along for the ride, we have a decision to make.

What leads a dead in trespasses sinner to Romans 10:9-11.

 

[bling]

The God of any point in time would know everything that the Gods of each point in time know simultaneously. The God of pre-creation knows what the God of every succeeding moment knows, thus every action of every man in all of time.

That is what I am saying, but that does not keep humans from making limited autonomous free will choices?

 

[Hammster]

No...be gathered BY Christ.

You need to reread it.

Here what you think it says.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered you together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing! -

Here’s what it says.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing! - Matthew 23:37

 

[ToBeLoved]

What leads a dead in trespasses sinner to Romans 10:9-11.

The Bible says faith comes by hearing the gospel.

 

[Hammster]

The Bible says faith comes by hearing the gospel.

Always?