Did God predestine the Fall?

[devin553344]

For those who believe in God predestine events, was the Fall one of them?

I'm not sure you can say that about God. Then by placing Adam and Eve in the garden God contributed to evil. Unless you believe that Adam and Eve and/or the serpent will take the blame for that. Then there may be a reality to freedom of choice and consequences. So then God can place Adam and Eve in the garden even knowing that they would commit evil in there and it's all the serpents fault. But Adam and Eve were cursed also, not just the serpent.

I have to say that I firmly believe that God does not sin or do any evil.

Then it's clear that there is freedom of choice and consequences to sin. And even if I put a person somewhere knowing they would sin due to an interaction with an evil being, it is not my fault So then we can put people in jails and when they're taught more evil and become worse sinners, it's not the polices or governments fault.

Hmmm, interesting concept. I must think about how that applies to my own guilt of enabling people to do evil?

 

[Chris V++]

If Calvinism is true and some are predestined to be saved and others lost, are there currently the souls of babies burning in hell?

 

[Hammster]

If Calvinism is true are some are predestined to be saved and others lost, are there currently the souls of babies burning in hell?

You should start a thread.

 

[RDKirk]

He designed the World and Creation, knew the outcome, and let it go down.

They chose to sin, and God knew that they were going to do it before he created them.

God did a bit more than "let it go down."

God created the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God gave a commandment not to eat of the tree.

Paul says this of God's commandments:

I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.

For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. -- Romans 7

It wasn't the tree--or it could have been any tree, a peach tree or an apple tree. It was the commandment. If God had never spoken the commandment, sin could not have occurred.

By speaking the commandment, God made sin possible where it had not been possible before. And from what Paul is saying, by speaking the commandment God not only made sin possible, but made sin inevitable.

And just in case sin wasn't inevitable enough from the commandment alone, God also created Lucifer, fully knowing that Satan would be the catalyst for sin.

 

[Chris V++]

You should start a thread.

Ok I can take a hint.
I started my first poll.

 

[DZoolander]

Personally, I believe in free will, which means the future is not set.

How that plays into the idea of an all knowing God I don’t know. But I’m far more prepared to accepting a boundary to God’s knowledge than I am to accept the implications carried with predestination.

 

[Hammster]

Personally, I believe in free will, which means the future is not set.

How that plays into the idea of an all knowing God I don’t know. But I’m far more prepared to accepting a boundary to God’s knowledge than I am to accept the implications carried with predestination.

That’s open theism, which is not allowed in General Theology. FYI

 

[rockytopva]

No, God did not predestination the fall.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Genesis 2:17

It was mans option to pick from good and from evil.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. - Genesis 6:5-6

God had no delight at all in the choices and decisions man would make.

 

[rockytopva]

No, God did not predestination the fall.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Genesis 2:17

It was mans option to pick from good and from evil.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. - Genesis 6:5-6

God had no delight at all in the choices and decisions man would make.

If anyone predestined the fall it was the devil himself....

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? - Genesis 3:1

 

[DZoolander]

That’s open theism, which is not allowed in General Theology. FYI

Ahhh - never even heard of that before now (just looked it up). lol. My apologies.

 

[Hammster]

No, God did not predestination the fall.

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. -Genesis 2:17

It was mans option to pick from good and from evil.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. - Genesis 6:5-6

God had no delight at all in the choices and decisions man would make.

He didn’t need to give a law.

 

[Roidecoeur78]

How is man's fault then if it was part of God's plan?

Romans 9:18-21

"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

 

[liberty of conscience]

That’s open theism, which is not allowed in General Theology. FYI

Yet, though absolutely false (and blasphemous), its (OpTh.) relationship to God's promises in scripture (Rev_21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. & Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.), is like certain aspects of 'Calvinistic predestination', for in OpTh. how could God know that for certainty, since in such wicked theology God does not know the future (end from the beginning, without making it happen by omnipotence)?, and in such theology, God cannot, but through brute force Omnipotence, God makes it so, which is yet another removal of freedom of will (just as OSAS, TULIP Calvinism does), from another angle. Those theologies effectively call God a slave master.

 

[twin.spin]

No, God did not.
The Bible only speaks of predestination in connection with believers being chosen prior to creation for certain reasons and subsequent actions God does to the believer.

• Rom 8: 29-30
• Eph 1: 4-6
• Eph 1:11-12

To associate any other intent or purpose for predestination is incorrect, and\or improper reading of Scripture, and\or misleading or false teaching.

 

[MDC]

Ahhh - never even heard of that before now (just looked it up). lol. My apologies.

Free Will theology logically leads to open theism on this topic of predestination. It’s basically what it is advocating. Isaiah 46:9-10 says God declares the end from the beginning.. God is Sovereign over His creation purposes to do all according to His will or man is sovereign and God is just a reactionary force as some would want it.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Since Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth, then it was known and even planned from eternally. What is why a creation of the possible was necessary. Just as Christ had to become flesh and vulnerable to death, so to creation and man had to be susceptible to degeneration. All designed so that the Father could have a family.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

In the realm of eternal things, man is a child. Less than a child. He cannot see, hear, or perceive eternal things. He cannot decide on eternal matters of which he is not cognizant. They are invisible. He is fallen. He does not nor can he seek eternal things. When faced with evidence of eternal things his soul is incapable of conceiving the reality of these things.
You have a blind, deaf, 3 year old child. You take this blind, deaf 3 year old and place him in the middle of a 6 lane intersection. You tell the child (who cannot hear you) "You must make the correct choice as to where to go. You have free will." The blind child who has no idea where it is or the danger it faces immediately is destroyed. The concept of "free will" is meaningless if the person is blind, deaf, and totally incapable of any genuine perception of the choices, or the ramification of those choices. The child is simply not culpable. One would ask who is truly responsible for the destruction of this child... the child or the parent? This same concept is true concerning man in the area of eternal things. What good is free will if you do not possess the facilities to effect a change? You have the free will to change the moon to whatever color you want.. but do you have the ability? In things eternal you possess neither the perception of choice nor the ability to effect a change.
Therefore there is grace. It is all on the parent to save the child from the danger it can neither perceive or save itself from.
The idea that God is going to trust the eternal destiny of His child to a fallen nature and the fickleness of mere "choice" is very much like placing that blind deaf child in that intersection and telling it "make the right choice... it is your broken 'free will' that rules my creation. You get to burn in hell for eternity if you guess wrongly."
Free will to a blind deaf man who cannot perceive or even conceive it's state of being is nothing more than a guess. Not free will. It cannot even be said to be free will if one cannot fully perceive and correctly assess the scenario and the dilemma.
Free will is for choosing your tie and selecting your entree' at dinner. Not your eternal destiny.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Adam naturally wanted to sin upon hearing the Law or he would not have. But he did not sin until he acted on it. James says lust turns into sin when acted on.

Look at the Genesis account. God created Adam sinless. Because sin is the violation of a law. And Adam did not have the law at this time.

God then gave Adam a law. Adam wanted to break this law or he would not have.

But Adam did not actually sin until he broke the law. (that is, until he ate from the forbidden tree).

Sin happened when Adam broke God's Law. But the law also revealed that Adam wanted to sin or he would not have.

From reading Scripture I am led to think that original sin started in the mind of Eve, and it appears Adam had little or no qualms about going along with his lover. Some time ago I listened to a message by S. Lewis Johnson that greatly gave me pause to think deeper on the fall verses in Genesis. The temptation in the form of crafty words through the possessed serpent, using other words, put into question the promise of God along with a promise of autonomy. Up until that point, all Adam and Eve knew was theonomy, but through temptation and given freedom to choose they turned from theonomy to the promise of the serpent believing they could become autonomous like God knowing good and evil, like God is important there.

 

[mark kennedy]

I don't see how you can have it both ways. To say that I have free will is to say that I could go here, or I could go there. Both are possible.

If it is known with 100% certainty that I will go *there* - then by definition it's impossible for me to do otherwise. There's only the illusion of choice.

You have left out the key to the whole thing, without righteousness sin is inevitable, technically Adam and Eve were never righteous, only innocent, there is a difference. As a matter of fact God hasn't revealed his thoughts regarding original sin, he has revealed that righteousness is by grace through faith in Christ. Sin isn't an offense committed, as much as the lack of the only thing that will prevent you from committing an offense, the righteousness of God in Christ. God was teaching them a lesson in righteousness, they choose the wisdom, actually a skill set, to know how evil works. They rejected the word of God and fell into sin and when they ate we did not fast. Blaming God for sin is not an option, God is by nature righteous, Adam and Eve were not, that's why they sinned and God knew they would, without the righteousness of God in Christ.

We are without free will because our conscience and will are poisoned by sin. It's really as simple as that just as the solution is simple, a child could understand.

 

[Not David]

No Jesus was fully human and fully God.

Yet Peter in Acts 2:23 says Jesus being handed over and crucified by evil men was God’s predetermined plan and by the foreknowledge of God.

Again it’s ok to admit you have identified a paradox and fully cannot comprehend we act according to the bondage of our will and that God too has a will and purpose and His Will and Purpose will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. It seems Peter had no issues communicating this in Acts 2:23 and again in Acts 4:

27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (NASB)

So here it says Pilate and Herod along with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel did whatever God’s Hand and Purpose predestined to occur.

Were these people temporarily Calvinist robots and then afterwards returned to their free will state? Or were they acting in accordance to their bondage will?

So was Jesus human will predestined?