Did God predestine the Fall?

[redleghunter]

Sure, evil is not.

Who said evil? You attribute that to God’s Sovereignty I don’t.

Evil came about by the human will.

That would not have happened if the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not in Eden. But the tree was there.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I asked you a question related to your OP. Please stop deflecting and just answer it.

Don't hold your breath on that. You know, as well as I do, that with God there never was a Plan B, which means that Plan A is, was, and always will be Plan A.

 

[Not David]

But you do believe God has His own Purpose and Will, right?

Was it God’s predetermined plan for Jesus Christ to suffer and die?

Yes, Jesus could have abandon his mission but both his human and divine will cooperated. To say otherwise is to be Monothelitic or thinking Jesus has one will or Monophysitic and thinking Jesus' divine nature overcomes the human nature.

 

[redleghunter]

Calvinists believe God made man sin and fall, not that God allowed man to choose communion with him or sin.

No if you explore what I provided from Ephesians 1, it has always been God’s plan for us to be in union with Him through the Divine Logos for His Glory Alone.

 

[Not David]

I asked you a question related to your OP. Please stop deflecting and just answer it.

Salvation is not his plan B, he just worked with what people messed up.
Now answer my question.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Salvation is not his plan B, he just worked with what people messed up.
Now answer my question.

If I understand you correctly, God never has had any plan, but He merely reacts to what happens. Am I correct in thinking this?

 

[Not David]

Ca

Who said evil? You attribute that to God’s Sovereignty I don’t.

Evil came about by the human will.

That would not have happened if the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not in Eden. But the tree was there.

Calvin's quotes that God is the author of evil:
...how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission... It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them... (John Calvin, The Eternal Predestination of God, 10:11)

The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)

thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

…it is utterly inconsistent to transfer the preparation for destruction to anything but God’s secret plan… God’s secret plan is the cause of hardening. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

 

[Not David]

If I understand you correctly, God never has had any plan, but He merely reacts to what happens. Am I correct in thinking this?

Reacts to what happens is wrong.
Like I said, God is. God works through both the past, present and future since he is there.
Like some people say God in the Old Testament was different from the New Testament, that's not true rather he dealt with people in different time in different manner.

 

[liberty of conscience]

Luk_22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

[1] Sovereingty of God is seen. The devil has to ask permission from Jesus in order to tempt Peter. God does not make/ordain satan to tempt Peter, but simply allows it. God does not make/ordain Peter to fail or succeed. Both possibilites existed and the outcome was simply known ahead by Jesus. The devil chooses to do this temptation, and God allows it to take place for a reason.

[2] Peter has freedom of will (choice) to either choose Christ or satan. Peter's freedom of will is granted by God, even as God granted it to satan/lucifer.

[3] Jesus foreknew Peter would fail (they all would fail) and even told him (them) so, yet Jesus did not make Peter fail, make Peter choose to deny Christ, but rather allowed Peter the decision, between affirmation or denial of Christ Jesus. Jesus' foreknowledge does not negate the choice given to Peter, it simply reveals beforehand what that choice would be at the moment of choice. Peter did not have to deny Christ, but he did deny Christ in the moment of decision (which was foreknown what that decision of Peter would be, this foreknowledge doesn't take away the choice of Peter at all, it only reveals that choice made). Again, do not confuse foreknowledge with a false understanding of predestiny.

[4] That Jesus foreknew Peter's failure and recovery, does not mean that there was no decision or choice, or freedom of will. It only means that God knew in advance what Peter's thoughts and actions would be in response to the devil's temptation and the pleadings of the Holy Ghost for repentance. God gives choices to men, and even angels, but those decisions (outcomes from possibilities) which arise from the choices given are never forced by God, even when God foreknows the outcomes.

[5] Freedom of will granted by God, does not ever grant man/angel omniscience, or omnipotence.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Reacts to what happens is wrong.
Like I said, God is. God works through both the past, present and future since he is there.
Like some people say God in the Old Testament was different from the New Testament, that's not true rather he dealt with people in different time in different manner.

Let me rephrase my question. Do you believe that God acts (makes the initial plan and acts upon it) or reacts (responds to what happens because He has never had any plan to put into action)?

 

[dad]

For those who believe in God predestine events, was the Fall one of them?

I would say Adam had a real choice. There are a few ways to learn what is needed. the easy way, and the hard way. Adam took the hard way.

 

[Not David]

Let me rephrase my question. Do you believe that God acts (makes the initial plan and acts upon it) or reacts (responds to what happens because He has never had any plan to put into action)?

God plans something but the plan does not overcome our free will

 

[bbbbbbb]

God plans something but the plan does not overcome our free will

In essence, if I understand you correctly, you believe that God might desire an outcome, but He lacks either the will and/or the ability to effect His desire. Thus, there is no Plan A with God except in the sense that he has a desire and if it is thwarted, then He reconnoiters and alters course to fit the events.

 

[Not David]

In essence, if I understand you correctly, you believe that God might desire an outcome, but He lacks either the will and/or the ability to effect His desire. Thus, there is no Plan A with God except in the sense that he has a desire and if it is thwarted, then He reconnoiters and alters course to fit the events.

God does not want people to commit fornication, are you going to either say that God is weak by not doing something against it or that he wants fornication to happen?

 

[bbbbbbb]

God does not want people to commit fornication, are you going to either say that God is weak by not doing something against it or that he wants fornication to happen?

God will judge fornicators. The fact that He does not so according to our desires, does not negate that fact that He will judge them even as He judged Adam and Eve.

Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin? If so, why do you think He did nothing to stop it?

 

[redleghunter]

It was his chance of giving us redemption. You probably believe it is God's plan for people to commit adultery rather than working through it.

That’s quite absurd. Will you address why it was God’s plan before the foundations of the Earth to have us redeemed and reconciled through and in Christ? And that this was predestined?

It’s the same passage from Ephesians 1

In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

STRONGS NT 4309: προορίζω

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶναἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand, Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰςτί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))

 

[Not David]

God will judge fornicators. The fact that He does not so according to our desires, does not negate that fact that He will judge them even as He judged Adam and Eve.

Did God know that Adam and Eve would sin? If so, why do you think He did nothing to stop it?

You see, how is it logical that God judges people who do what God wants them to do?
Also God intervening would had done nothing since both Adam and Eve already doubted God in their hearts.

 

[redleghunter]

How it is what Paul's saying contradictory to God giving people redemption from their own doing?

Because Paul makes it clear God’s plan before He created mankind was to redeem mankind through Jesus Christ.

It’s ok to say you don’t know and that there is an apparent paradox you need to humbly study and pray over. That’s fine.

 

[redleghunter]

You answer me:
A man and a woman get married and they divorce, later both of them remarry. Was the second marriage God's plan B?

No all of the above hu-mans operated within the bondage of the will.

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, Jesus could have abandon his mission but both his human and divine will cooperated. To say otherwise is to be Monothelitic or thinking Jesus has one will or Monophysitic and thinking Jesus' divine nature overcomes the human nature.

No Jesus was fully human and fully God.

Yet Peter in Acts 2:23 says Jesus being handed over and crucified by evil men was God’s predetermined plan and by the foreknowledge of God.

Again it’s ok to admit you have identified a paradox and fully cannot comprehend we act according to the bondage of our will and that God too has a will and purpose and His Will and Purpose will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. It seems Peter had no issues communicating this in Acts 2:23 and again in Acts 4:

27“For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. (NASB)

So here it says Pilate and Herod along with the Gentiles and peoples of Israel did whatever God’s Hand and Purpose predestined to occur.

Were these people temporarily Calvinist robots and then afterwards returned to their free will state? Or were they acting in accordance to their bondage will?