Did God predestine the Fall?

[Serving Zion]

What drove the men to crucify Christ was their suppression of the truth in unrighteousness.

It was really their desire to suppress the truth in unrighteousness that drove them. The fact that they did it is a result of that desire having come forth in action.

They desired to suppress the truth because they could not endure the wrath of God that came upon them, as conviction of their sin in light of the truth.

That is what John the Baptist was expressing by saying "whoever does not obey the son, the wrath of God abides on him".

They were not obeying the son, always accusing Him wrongly, and because they were taking God's name in vain in order to do so, the wrath of God came upon them and they could not endure it. It drove them to murder (to suppress the truth) because they refused to repent (do righteousness).

You can keep making up doctrine by hop scotch theology but the apostle Paul clearly shows we are children of wrath and it is God who makes us alive in Him through Christ.

As I explained, a baby is not born as a child of wrath, but they are conformed into the thinking of the world and lured into sin before they have encountered the knowledge of the truth that empowers them to resist sin. It is the world that makes us become children of wrath.

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

I agree with that translation, but I do not agree that it is teaching the doctrine that you are teaching. There is subtle difference in the meaning of the words we are reading, and so far, all indications are that you don't understand the way I am reading it.

Furthermore, it is difficult to explain the way I am reading it when you are not interested in understanding it. (I already understand the way that you are reading it, btw).

You quoted one verse and then unfolded your own doctrine not addressing the text.

Are you asking me to provide my own commentary on the whole of Isaiah 53? .. that's a lot of work! (and I don't think you will really make it worth my effort). Can you identify a couple of verses in particular that you think I cannot read in absence of your doctrine of Inherited (imputed) Sin? .. then I will explain the way I am reading those verses. I can see how that could be useful.

 

[Serving Zion]

Because there are those who are children of wrath, and those with the same nature. The only difference between the two is God. To understand that is to understand why we should be humble. We have nothing to boast about, not even making a “choice”.

Are you suggesting that those who are saved are still having the same nature as the children of wrath?

 

[Hammster]

Are you suggesting that those who are saved are still having the same nature as the children of wrath?

Yes. We have nothing good in us. Our righteousness is from Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(NASB)

You quoted it but did not address it.

 

[redleghunter]

And the mechanical explanation for that is found in Hebrews 10:26-27. It is obedience that justifies us, and the key is knowing that the blood of Christ is not a license to sin, but an offer of mercy that we may repent before the coming Day of Adonai (Zephaniah 1, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 10:28-29).

Whose obedience is that exactly?

 

[redleghunter]

As I explained, a baby is not born as a child of wrath, but they are conformed into the thinking of the world and lured into sin before they have encountered the knowledge of the truth that empowers them to resist sin. It is the world that makes us become children of wrath.

I understand the emotionalism of not thinking babies cooing and pooping in their diapers are not under the condemnation of the disobedience of Adam. But that is what the apostle Paul teaches. We all are as the physical manifestation of death is apparent to all. We all die. Unfortunately babies do as well.

I agree with that translation, but I do not agree that it is teaching the doctrine that you are teaching. There is subtle difference in the meaning of the words we are reading, and so far, all indications are that you don't understand the way I am reading it.

Furthermore, it is difficult to explain the way I am reading it when you are not interested in understanding it. (I already understand the way that you are reading it, btw).

The wages of sin is death. Both physically and spiritually. Christ came to give us eternal life.

Are you asking me to provide my own commentary on the whole of Isaiah 53? .. that's a lot of work! (and I don't think you will really make it worth my effort). Can you identify a couple of verses in particular that you think I cannot read in absence of your doctrine of Inherited (imputed) Sin? .. then I will explain the way I am reading those verses. I can see how that could be useful.

Just acknowledge the portions like 99% you ignore.

 

[Serving Zion]

Yes. We have nothing good in us. Our righteousness is from Christ.

If you say that we have the nature of the children of wrath, it appears to contradict 2 Corinthians 5:17:

"The old has passed away, the new has come".

and 2 Corinthians 5:21:

"in Him, we might become the righteousness of God"

and Romans 7:5-6:

"when we were in the flesh, sinful passions that came through the law were working in our body parts to bear fruit for death - but now we have been released from the law, having died to that which confined us, so that we may serve in the new way of the spirit"

How can you explain that apparent contradiction?

 

[Serving Zion]

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(NASB)

You quoted it but did not address it.

It looks like you didn't notice, but I did address it. It happens to have been inserted half-way through the quote though, which doesn't help you to find it. Here you go:

This is saying that because we are being redeemed to life after having known the true cost of our sin, then we are wiser to not fall as in James 1:14 again - and in this way, the gift of grace that came to the world through Christ abounds more than the sting of death that came to the world through Adam.

.. let me know if you need more clarification.

 

[Serving Zion]

Whose obedience is that exactly?

It is our obedience, of course, just as Romans 6:16 says.

I am forced to wonder why you asked that question.. I have no idea. Could you explain? I think that would be useful, thank you.

 

[redleghunter]

It looks like you didn't notice, but I did address it. It happens to have been inserted half-way through the quote though, which doesn't help you to find it. Here you go:

This is saying that because we are being redeemed to life after having known the true cost of our sin, then we are wiser to not fall as in James 1:14 again - and in this way, the gift of grace that came to the world through Christ abounds more than the sting of death that came to the world through Adam.

.. let me know if you need more clarification.

James is not addressing original sin as Paul is.

Here we can start here:

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

 

[redleghunter]

It is our obedience, of course, just as Romans 6:16 says.

I am forced to wonder why you asked that question.. I have no idea. Could you explain? I think that would be useful, thank you.

That verse says servants to obedience.

So Whose obedience is that?

 

[Serving Zion]

I understand the emotionalism of not thinking babies cooing and pooping in their diapers are not under the condemnation of the disobedience of Adam. But that is what the apostle Paul teaches.

Where do you see him teaching that? I have shown you that he doesn't appear to be teaching that at all. How do you explain Romans 7:9 according to your doctrine?

We all are as the physical manifestation of death is apparent to all. We all die. Unfortunately babies do as well.

It is not speaking of physical death, is it? To be "born again" is speaking of a spiritual life and a spiritual death.. or are you otherwise going to teach that St. Paul was physically killed by a commandment of the Torah at some time?

The wages of sin is death. Both physically and spiritually. Christ came to give us eternal life.

Just acknowledge the portions like 99% you ignore.

Alright, please list them.

 

[Serving Zion]

That verse says servants to obedience.

So Whose obedience is that?

You mean "obedience to whom"? .. because your language is saying "who is to obey?". .. I think that is a bit of evidence of the problem we have here today.

Of course, it is obedience to The Truth, as when you join John 8:37 and John 5:22, we see what John the Baptist said: He who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

 

[Serving Zion]

Here we can start here:

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Our difference is in the understanding of how that one transgression resulted in condemnation to all men. You are of a mind that God is righteous to blame me for what some guy did 6,000 years before I even had a chance to talk him out of it. That just plainly isn't justice, so it doesn't reflect the nature of God.

I am saying that James 1:14-15 does in fact explain how that one transgression has let death (the instant spiritual death of Adam and Eve), that has "spread" to all mankind, and that is how the condemnation comes to all men before they come to the awareness of sin in order that they can resist sin and not follow their desires as James 1:14-15.

But we live in a fallen world that actually teaches us that the way of wrath is the right way.

 

[dad]

I never said or implied that we shouldn’t try. That’s how souls are won. Faith comes by hearing. But, you and I can try all day long and if they are not to be saved, they won’t.

What is the point of trying then if it is all fixed?

 

[dad]

If we are deluded, then we think we are believing the truth. We never believe something that we think is a lie. Unless there some mental issue going on.

Sure, men come to think what they believe is true.

 

[dad]

This is what you rejected in my statement:

What is more repentance isn't as much an act of the will as a change of attitude that happens at the seat of moral reflection which is itself an act of God. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, another point of doctrine you have completely missed.
​

You ignored the fact that Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, as well as the faith being once and for all delivered to the saints. (Jude 1:3) That makes faith a work, which isn't how the gospel is presented in the New Testament.

No works save us, Jesus does, however, that does't mean choosing as we are commanded to do is some sort of saving work. Would you consider a drowning man reaching for a life preserver a work?

God does not fly over and force a drowning man to grab the life preserver. God does not change some attitude inside our mind and heart so much before we choose to get saved, that there is no need for us to choose. God made it a PART of HIS work of salvation of man, that man CHOOSES!

Your still not dealing with Paul telling us he was chosen before the foundation of the world. There is a simple way of resolving this unless you ignore the text.

God chose to make the way so that there would be a church, a group of believers. That does not mean Saul was there before the earth was made having tea with Jesus, as you seem to allude to!

God predestined that all who would be saved, would be made holy, blameless and sons according to the glorious riches of his grace, in Christ. You keep leaving out the essential element of what God does and has done.

No, He predestined that all who called on Him/chose/believed/came to Him..etc would then start to be made holy. He did not choose that person 2267442 would be damned, and that person 33979865 would be saved!​

 

[dad]

Please explain

Whosoever WILL, let him come....if any man come to me...he that asketh receives..this is my commandment that ye believe...etc etc etc etc etc etc.

 

[dad]

Yes that is correct. What I was referring to was Romans 6 and by extension chapters 7 and 8.

Ok

 

[dad]

Did Saul call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ before being swatted and confronted?

How would I know what went on late at night, or as he traveled on the roads, or as he saw the suffering he was helping cause, or as he was reading some verses...etc etc etc?

If you mean, 'did the bible record Saul screaming to Jesus for forgiveness the moments before he fell from the horse' no, of course not.

If you suggest that Saul never prayed, or that he was not desperate inside to know the truth about Jesus...well, good luck proving that.