Did God predestine the Fall?

[mark kennedy]

No works save us, Jesus does, however, that does't mean choosing as we are commanded to do is some sort of saving work. Would you consider a drowning man reaching for a life preserver a work?

God does not fly over and force a drowning man to grab the life preserver. God does not change some attitude inside our mind and heart so much before we choose to get saved, that there is no need for us to choose. God made it a PART of HIS work of salvation of man, that man CHOOSES!

God chose to make the way so that there would be a church, a group of believers. That does not mean Saul was there before the earth was made having tea with Jesus, as you seem to allude to!

No, He predestined that all who called on Him/chose/believed/came to Him..etc would then start to be made holy. He did not choose that person 2267442 would be damned, and that person 33979865 would be saved!​

You keep arguing against somethibg I'm not saying, I saiid salvation was decided before the foundation of the world, because all who would be saved must be rge righteousness if God in Christ. To qhich you repeatedly said no, ramble avout a xhoice, then carry on your argument with someone who isn't poating to this thread. Paul telks us he chose us in him before the foundation if the world (Eph. 1:4). You have multiple exposition aling with exegetical details regarding faith and oredestination straight out of a lexicon. Your response is absolutely nothing. Reated expoaitions of the gospel and requisite texts, bothing. So what does it mean, 'chose us in him before the foundation of the world'?

 

[dad]

Paul telks us he chose us in him before the foundation if the world (Eph. 1:4).

Chose US, not what we would choose.

You have multiple exposition aling with exegetical details regarding faith and oredestination straight out of a lexicon. Your response is absolutely nothing. Reated expoaitions of the gospel and requisite texts, bothing. So what does it mean, 'chose us in him before the foundation of the world'?

Defining pre destiny is not applicable here, what is relevant is what and who and when some person or group was pre destined. If the pre arranging/predestination is speaking about a group of people that got to be a group BY choice, the issue becomes something far different than individual free will.

To try and paint God as some monster that violates our wishes and choices and who was telling fibs when He pointed out we must decide to be saved is wrong. That simply is not what Jesus is like.

It is not a matter of pre determined choices, but more of pre set outcomes for those choices.

 

[DZoolander]

I know the question was not directed to me, but if I may add a comment, just like to say, freedom to choose according to the nature of a will and not contrary to nature. Part of the problem of the whole debate are those who deny the will is in bondage, those who deny that the fall and extent of sin applies to the whole person, such that it impacts the will and by extension the choices from a will. Another way of stating or framing this is that for all the "good" (humanly speaking) choices a sinner is capable of, none of them no matter how good they may appear to us as fellow humans, none of them please God, they all fall short (of His glory of His righteousness), because without faith it is impossible to please Him, and faith is a gift from God authored and completed by Christ. Woops I said more than planned.

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I can accept most of that. Sure. The scope of choices available may all be sinful - and none are pleasing to God.

But when people talk about free will, they're not really talking about whether or not the individual has the choice between "Righteous action" or "sinful action"...but rather that they do actually have choice in action regardless. The person could do A, or they could do B. They have free will to decide between the two.

The part that gives me problems when it comes to free will and God's omniscience (perfect foreknowledge of what the choice will be) is that if God knows it "will be A" - then it cannot by definition ever be B. The fact that it cannot be B is known ahead of time. So when the time comes, it cannot be A or B. It can only be A.

...and if it can only be A, how does that work with the idea that man has been blessed with free will? Only one possible choice does not exactly sound like freedom to choose.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I can accept most of that. Sure. The scope of choices available may all be sinful - and none are pleasing to God.

But when people talk about free will, they're not really talking about whether or not the individual has the choice between "Righteous action" or "sinful action"...but rather that they do actually have choice in action regardless. The person could do A, or they could do B. They have free will to decide between the two.

The part that gives me problems when it comes to free will and God's omniscience (perfect foreknowledge of what the choice will be) is that if God knows it "will be A" - then it cannot by definition ever be B. The fact that it cannot be B is known ahead of time. So when the time comes, it cannot be A or B. It can only be A.

...and if it can only be A, how does that work with the idea that man has been blessed with free will? Only one possible choice does not exactly sound like freedom to choose.

I think the biggest help to me with sorting the omniscience of God and free will is in the Creator - creature distinction. In this is the provision for a first cause and secondary causality agents. So God knowing A does not necessitate Him causing A. It's not a complete answer by any means, and we can without cease question all the sin, suffering, and evil He allows, or we can trust Him and look to the cross of Christ and his sufferings and our sins he took upon Himself.

 

[mark kennedy]

Defining pre destiny is not applicable here, what is relevant is what and who and when some person or group was pre destined. If the pre arranging/predestination is speaking about a group of people that got to be a group BY choice, the issue becomes something far different than individual free will.

To try and paint God as some monster that violates our wishes and choices and who was telling fibs when He pointed out we must decide to be saved is wrong. That simply is not what Jesus is like.

It is not a matter of pre determined choices, but more of pre set outcomes for those choices.

I don't know where you get a word like predestiny, the word for predestination in the New Testament on the other hand I'm familiar with. There are only two groups of people, the saved and unsaved, we are not Catholic so we can dispense with any reflections of limbo or purgatory for temporal sin. What we are predestined to, God's eternal purposes according to his good and perfect will, is the righteousness of God 'in Christ'. Technically we are all predestined to that simply because there is no other way to be in God's presence for eternity without it. Those who go on to perdition are the opposite of being born again, they are born of their father the Devil, that's why Judas was called a Devil by Jesus.

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.” (John 8:44-47)
​

I don't know why we are arguing over a time of decision, since I've never doubted that there is such a thing. What I'm talking about is what seals your fate and this group Jesus is talking to had already sealed theirs, they were children of their father the devil. You can't really hold to justification by grace through faith and deny a choice, or free will for that matter, but when it comes to the gospel the emphasis is always on what God does for us, not what we do, not even the choice we make.

More importantly, I asked you a question, 'So what does it mean, 'chose us in him before the foundation of the world?' I would really appreciate a straight answer because so far I feel like your arguing against someone who isn't involved in the conversations, which is awkward to say the least.

 

[mark kennedy]

I know the question was not directed to me, but if I may add a comment, just like to say, freedom to choose according to the nature of a will and not contrary to nature. Part of the problem of the whole debate are those who deny the will is in bondage, those who deny that the fall and extent of sin applies to the whole person, such that it impacts the will and by extension the choices from a will. Another way of stating or framing this is that for all the "good" (humanly speaking) choices a sinner is capable of, none of them no matter how good they may appear to us as fellow humans, none of them please God, they all fall short (of His glory of His righteousness), because without faith it is impossible to please Him, and faith is a gift from God authored and completed by Christ. Woops I said more than planned.

I was actually wondering why you stopped there, it was just getting good. I did like the bondage of the will part, that is certainly a key point.

 

[dad]

I don't know where you get a word like predestiny, the word for predestination in the New Testament on the other hand I'm familiar with. There are only two groups of people, the saved and unsaved,

People have two choices they can make, so they end up saved..or not. This depends on their choice not any pre determination.

Technically we are all predestined to that simply because there is no other way to be in God's presence for eternity without it.

False, if we were pre destined to choose one or the other that is not choice.

Neither hell nor heaven is predestined for any man. What is predestined is that if we choose Jes we have eternal life, and He will start to work on us, make us better, send His spirit..etc etc. Conversely if we reject Jesus we start the journey to hell. What we choose is not predetermined, only what we can choose.

Those who go on to perdition are the opposite of being born again, they are born of their father the Devil, that's why Judas was called a Devil by Jesus.

Nevertheless they go there by choice also.

​

I don't know why we are arguing over a time of decision, since I've never doubted that there is such a thing. What I'm talking about is what seals your fate and this group Jesus is talking to had already sealed theirs,

Yes THEY did BY their choice!

they were children of their father the devil. You can't really hold to justification by grace through faith and deny a choice, or free will for that matter, but when it comes to the gospel the emphasis is always on what God does for us, not what we do, not even the choice we make.

When we are preached to that is a choice to accept or not. When we chose to accept Jesus and salvation that is a choice. So there is emphasis on choice. Of course it is only because of what Jesus did we have one.

More importantly, I asked you a question, 'So what does it mean, 'chose us in him before the foundation of the world?' I would really appreciate a straight answer because so far I feel like your arguing against someone who isn't involved in the conversations, which is awkward to say the least.

I would think that may refer to how He chose to provide a choice to us to accept His sacrifice. If we are talking about that group that did choose, then we can say 'we were chosen'. That doesn't mean He choses FOR us, it means we chose to be among the chosen. the we that are chosen are we that choose Jesus.

'We' in this instance then seems to refer to the we who chose Jesus and His gift of life. So of course we were chosen. Those who choose Jesus are the chosen of God.

 

[mark kennedy]

People have two choices they can make, so they end up saved..or not. This depends on their choice not any pre determination

What the choices are, are not random.

False, if we were pre destined to choose one or the other that is not choice.

We talked about what God predestined, you ignored that. We talked about the primacy of the gospel, you ignored that. I tried to tell you that God purposed that all who will be saved will be saved in Christ and you ignored that. What exactly is your point?

Neither hell nor heaven is predestined for any man. What is predestined is that if we choose Jes we have eternal life, and He will start to work on us, make us better, send His spirit..etc etc. Conversely if we reject Jesus we start the journey to hell. What we choose is not predetermined, only what we can choose.

God choses what you can chose, there are only two choices. How hard is that?

Nevertheless they go there by choice also.

Still just two choices

Yes THEY did BY their choice!

Still not a point of contention.

When we are preached to that is a choice to accept or not. When we chose to accept Jesus and salvation that is a choice. So there is emphasis on choice. Of course it is only because of what Jesus did we have one.

Without a clear idea of what that choice is your still not making a statement here.

I would think that may refer to how He chose to provide a choice to us to accept His sacrifice. If we are talking about that group that did choose, then we can say 'we were chosen'. That doesn't mean He choses FOR us, it means we chose to be among the chosen. the we that are chosen are we that choose Jesus.

Does God get a choice in this?

'We' in this instance then seems to refer to the we who chose Jesus and His gift of life. So of course we were chosen. Those who choose Jesus are the chosen of God.

I asked for a straight answer and you gave me that. I ask again, So what does it mean, 'chose us in him before the foundation of the world'? Because that makes no sense that it was our choice. It's more like what the choices have to be.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

People have two choices they can make, so they end up saved..or not. This depends on their choice not any pre determination.

Did you choose the period of time in history you would be born?
Did you choose the geological location you would be born?
Did you choose your nationality?
Did you choose the initial constitution your physical body would inherit?
Did you choose the parents you would be born to?
Did you choose to take care of yourself when you were in diapers?
Did you choose the economy you would raised under?
Did you choose whether or not your parents would or not take you to Church growing up?
Did you choose where you would go to elementary school?
Do we choose whether or not the hairs on our head will turn grey?

The list goes on and on, we could go into the physical sciences and how they depend on causality, in fact it is assumed in order to operate. It is by far more difficult to prove freedom within a will than it is to prove causality. Not that I have not already spelled out (in other posts) what is called "compatiblism" in philosophy, which is a far cry from the Greek goddess of fate or any other other non-Christian concept of "fate", as though God were held captive, and under the sovereignty of this goddess of fate...pshh...not even.

 

[DZoolander]

I think the biggest help to me with sorting the omniscience of God and free will is in the Creator - creature distinction. In this is the provision for a first cause and secondary causality agents. So God knowing A does not necessitate Him causing A. It's not a complete answer by any means, and we can without cease question all the sin, suffering, and evil He allows, or we can trust Him and look to the cross of Christ and his sufferings and our sins he took upon Himself.

It seems to me, though, that a lot of the time when I engage in this topic with people, that those I'm discussing it with get hung up on the issue of God *causing* things to happen and it's that question that they want to talk about. Kind of like - it's the issue of "can God cause sin" that motivates their answer...and of course...the answer is "no"

But - in a sense - that's a separate issue from what I'm interested in. I understand how they're related - but I think the "can God cause sin" issue brings into it a lot of other topics that need to be hashed out - and then the other (more simple) question never really gets addressed.

TBH - I really don't have an answer for the "does God *cause* your actions" question. Philosophically, I have a lot of deist leanings...so I could go into what my PERSONAL view is on the topic...but that's just my personal opinion(s) which are just like everyone else's.

The question I'm interested in is a lot simpler.

If your action is known with absolute divine certainty beforehand (heck, even back to the beginning of time), is there actually choice when the moment arrives?

I think once that is answered, then it's a lot easier to address those other questions (or at least you have a more solid basis to address them).

 

[Hammster]

If you say that we have the nature of the children of wrath, it appears to contradict 2 Corinthians 5:17:

"The old has passed away, the new has come".

and 2 Corinthians 5:21:

"in Him, we might become the righteousness of God"

and Romans 7:5-6:

"when we were in the flesh, sinful passions that came through the law were working in our body parts to bear fruit for death - but now we have been released from the law, having died to that which confined us, so that we may serve in the new way of the spirit"

How can you explain that apparent contradiction?

There isn’t any when you read things in context and not pull verses out to stand on their own.

We have no righteousness in and of ourselves. Any righteousness we have is imputed to us by Christ.

 

[Hammster]

What is the point of trying then if it is all fixed?

Because we are commanded to. Do you need more?

 

[Hammster]

Sure, men come to think what they believe is true.

Again, nobody believes what they think is a lie. And you cannot come up with any examples.

 

[mark kennedy]

Again, nobody believes what they think is a lie. And you cannot come up with any examples.

I don't know, if the Devil is really perfect in wisdom and he knows he can't be God, does he believe it anyway? Cause that would be insane right?

 

[dad]

What the choices are, are not random.

Correct, we have the choice..Jesus, or no Jesus. Not some random choice.

We talked about what God predestined, you ignored that.

No, I pointed out what He predestined was that He would die so we could have a choice.

We talked about the primacy of the gospel, you ignored that.

Not at all. I just showed that the gospel was nothing related to some lack of ability to choose Jesus or reject Him.

I tried to tell you that God purposed that all who will be saved will be saved in Christ and you ignored that.

Of course He presupposed that all people on earth who chose Jesus are saved. What's to ignore? Hr did not purpose that billions go to hell, or to heaven though, of course. Our choice is part of what was presupposed.

God choses what you can chose, there are only two choices. How hard is that?

Ridiculous. If you are trying to say God chooses what will choose. If you are saying that just the choices we have to choose from were arranged by God, yes, of course. How we would choose was not.

Without a clear idea of what that choice is your still not making a statement here.

His gift of eternal life to all who ask is pretty clear. Not sure what you think is unclear. You choose to accept Him (and eternal life) or to reject Him. That is your clear choice, and the choice of all people.

Does God get a choice in this?

No!!!!!!! We get to choose Jesus or reject Him, God has left that to us to decide. No forcing. Real free choice. No pre arrangement for our choice, only what we can choose from.

I asked for a straight answer and you gave me that. I ask again, So what does it mean, 'chose us in him before the foundation of the world'? Because that makes no sense that it was our choice. It's more like what the choices have to be.

It seems to mean that a body of believers would exist, He chose that because He died to make it possible. Who that 'us' and when they exist are what matter. The 'us' is ANYONE at all on earth of all peoples, that come to Jesus (get saved, believe, etc). If you choose to repent, you become one of us! If your parents taught you right all your life, you basically always were one of us (at least since you decided at some age of reason)(of course even if you die before that age, if one parent is a believer that counts!)

Therefore the 'us' refers to people who choose Jesus.

 

[dad]

Again, nobody believes what they think is a lie. And you cannot come up with any examples.

Nor can you to the contrary because you do not know the heart of man. God does. He says they will be sent strong delusion if they love not the truth.

 

[redleghunter]

Our difference is in the understanding of how that one transgression resulted in condemnation to all men. You are of a mind that God is righteous to blame me for what some guy did 6,000 years before I even had a chance to talk him out of it. That just plainly isn't justice, so it doesn't reflect the nature of God.

Romans 5 makes the distinction between the one sin which condemns all and the ones we pile up for ourselves.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (NASB)

Even for those who did not sin as Adam did were under the curse of death.

I am saying that James 1:14-15 does in fact explain how that one transgression has let death (the instant spiritual death of Adam and Eve), that has "spread" to all mankind, and that is how the condemnation comes to all men before they come to the awareness of sin in order that they can resist sin and not follow their desires as James 1:14-15.

Yet the reality is we all suffer the curse of physical death which is along with spiritual death due to the one transgression of disobedience in Adam. This is why Paul is comparing the one act of disobedience to the one act of righteousness.

But we live in a fallen world that actually teaches us that the way of wrath is the right way.

Indeed but would actually say this is the suppression of righteousness.

 

[dad]

Did you choose the period of time in history you would be born?

I don't know. I assume no.

Did you choose the geological location you would be born?
Did you choose your nationality?
Did you choose the initial constitution your physical body would inherit?
Did you choose the parents you would be born to?

Good questions. In other words did we exist before we came to earth. I used to assume we did, and that I maybe helped pick my parents. Now, I am not sure. Any verses on that issue? We do know He was with us in the womb. Even before He formed us in the belly as Jeremiah says.

I can't take that to necessarily mean we existed and watched when He created the universe though...can you?

Did you choose to take care of yourself when you were in diapers?

That is not the way God set it up. He did set it up that we need to choose to repent and accept Jesus though (or reject Him).

The list goes on and on, we could go into the physical sciences and how they depend on causality, in fact it is assumed in order to operate. It is by far more difficult to prove freedom within a will than it is to prove causality. Not that I have not already spelled out (in other posts) what is called "compatiblism" in philosophy, which is a far cry from the Greek goddess of fate or any other other non-Christian concept of "fate", as though God were held captive, and under the sovereignty of this goddess of fate...pshh...not even.

Maybe this is where common sense should enter in. If we had no real choice in life to accept God's spirit rather than the enemy, why would He need to die? It would all just be some big destined event in which we were zombie pawns. We are loved by God and made in His image and shall judge angels and rule with Him. That tells me we are special, and loved and not on some pre arranged cosmic roller coaster.

 

[redleghunter]

Whosoever WILL, let him come....if any man come to me...he that asketh receives..this is my commandment that ye believe...etc etc etc etc etc etc.

“Will” is the operative word.

 

[dad]

Because we are commanded to. Do you need more?

Yes. If billions were doomed to hell and never had any choice or chance, and all who were to go to heaven were pre arranged, regardless of what they chose, then I would need to review whether God was good. His word indicates otherwise.