Did God predestine the Fall?

[mark kennedy]

You assume wrongly about Saul, he was a Pharisee of Pharisees before his conversion. He had great zeal, and pride (at the time) in being a persecutor of early Christians...until Jesus knocked him off his horse with a question and blinded him. Saul wasn't seeking after Christ at all, he didn't ask Christ to "come into his heart", it was just the opposite, Christ came after him, Christ pursued him, and brought Saul into a most humbling submission. Thinking about it, I cannot imagine facing those you once persecuted, the shame and humility of it.

Just wanted to mention in passing, some fine expositions and excellent source material. It would have been nice if they had gotten a little more attention, some really good material there. Saul hardly seems like a seeker when he was stopped on the road to Damascus. I don't know what he went through in the dessert of Arabia as he digested what had happened, but I'm sure he went through a lot of things we can scarcely imagine. In his zeal he persecuted the church of the living God, it must have been devastating to realize how wrong he had been, he laments it whenever he mentions this fact.

Saul was the lest of us because of what he had done, and freely admits it, but goes on to be the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul, after he took on the new name, freely confesses that it was God's grace that made him work so hard in the mission field. When the new church was inundated by the Pharisees to circumcise Gentile believers he was adamant, as were the other Apostles and the church, the Gentiles were purifying themselves by faith. Paul would go on after the controversy at Jerusalem to write a scathing letter denouncing a works righteousness as being an affront to grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[mark kennedy]

You are of a mind that says a baby is born without the spirit of God in them. That is false teaching, not scriptural. You have no scriptural support for that view.

Most of the rest seems fine but you won't find that in the New Testament. I won't even try to defend what he said, because it's such an odd thing to say something like this. There are occasions where a child in the womb can be filled with the Holy Spirit but to say all are hardly seems like a New Testament doctrine. Perhaps you could explain that a little.

 

[Serving Zion]

Most of the rest seems fine but you won't find that in the New Testament. I won't even try to defend what he said, because it's such an odd thing to say something like this. There are occasions where a child in the womb can be filled with the Holy Spirit but to say all are hardly seems like a New Testament doctrine. Perhaps you could explain that a little.

To be holy is to be without sin. Everyone has spirit, that is the "breath". So a spirit that is expressing itself through us without sin, is holy - love. St. John writes "he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him" .. and so it is, that when children are handled right, they do not manifest sin but love.

St. Paul writes "I was alive once apart from the law .. but when the commandment came, sin came to life and I died", and that shows that there was something about the commandment, that when it came, it caused sin to manifest to the detriment of his natural state of life. Sin rose up within him and put him to death. We have to read that as a spiritual life and death just as Jesus speaks of in John 5:24.

So whenever a child has been provoked to demonstrate sin (eg: pride, envy, wrath etc), that is just it: they have been provoked. However, their sins are usually brought out of them quickly through repentance, because they are not clever enough or independent enough to conceal the truth when parents begin asking questions. But grown-ups get clever, and the get independent, and they begin to rely on deceit in a sustainable way.. and that leads them to not only lie to their parents, but also to The Holy Spirit when He begins convicting them in their conscience.

That is why Jesus says "unless you turn and become again as a little child, you shall never enter the kingdom of heaven" - it is about being honest and repentant. When we learn that our doctrine is in error, we need to receive that conviction in order to remain "in" the true vine of Christ (John 15). Otherwise, if we reject the conviction of the truth, (for fear of shame or loss etc), then we also must become demonic in spirit, cut off from Christ (1 John 1:6-7).

 

[Radagast]

Absolute foreknowledge negates free will, IMHO.

Negates libertarian free will. Not the other kind.

 

[DZoolander]

Define then what the “other kind” looks like in practice?

 

[Hammster]

We cannot change Yahweh,
and cannot change what Yahweh knows, since He Knows All Things Forever and always has Known all things forever.

We can proclaim the Gospel of Jesus , Christ Crucified, so sinners may hear the truth from Yahweh's Word and repent of their sin and their lives and turn to Yahweh and be immersed in Jesus' Name to be saved.

The sinners who see us every day should see the life of Jesus in our lives and when we speak they should hear the Word of ABBA YAHWEH our FATHER ,
and the sinners can change.

Yahweh never changes.

That really didn’t answer my question.

 

[Hammster]

I didn't ignore the text you posted. I showed how you are misinterpreting it. You did not read what I wrote, otherwise you would have addressed what I said.

You know I have said that I was not born as a son of disobedience, but I became a son of disobedience after James 1:14-15 - I was tempted into sin, bringing forth death, just as Romans 7:9 says I was alive until that time, when the commandment empowered sin to put me to death.

You are of a mind that says a baby is born without the spirit of God in them. That is false teaching, not scriptural. You have no scriptural support for that view.

And so the point of that discourse in our conversation, was from post #266: you think that I don't deserve salvation? .. what, do you think I would not resent God if He had given me a life that led to hell with no opportunity to escape that doom?

That about shows how stark the difference is between your idea of God, vs mine. God is love, but what your doctrine says Him to be does not add up to that conclusion. That is why many hear that doctrine and they are forever shut off from Christianity. They see the hypocrisy and injustice that you don't see, and they can never see God as a just and loving God, because that doctrine doesn't lead to that conclusion.

So what do you do with Ephesians 2 that says believers have the same nature as children of wrath?

 

[Serving Zion]

So what do you do with Ephesians 2 that says believers have the same nature as children of wrath?

St. Paul is speaking in a past tense, to say that there was a time when they were children of wrath, but now that they have been saved (v4) they no longer walk in that way (ie: fulfilling the desires of their flesh and mind - Romans 12:2). Galatians 5:24 says specifically that we have crucified the desires of the flesh.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That really didn’t answer my question.

It seems that if someone wants to avoid the truth, their questions are never answered in a way satisfactory to them unless ....... .....

well , forget that. It is better to seek the truth, to seek Yahweh, as only He can enlighten someone's mind with understanding.

 

[dad]

Yahweh ALWAYS keeps His Promises, His Word, every one.

NO matter what we do or choose.

Right, except the promise of salvation is totally dependent on what we choose. It could not be kept unless we chose.

 

[dad]

People are told by Yahweh
to CHOOSE WHO TO SERVE;

that doesn't always result in their salvation - they do not "choose to be saved" .... they cannot become saved by choosing anything.

If the way to heaven is choosing Jesus, and we do that, this means that we do choose. In every way. He leaves that choice up to us. His choice was to make it possible.

 

[dad]

That wasn’t written to you.

ok

 

[dad]

“Many will come to Me that day...”.

None of those people came to Him in the way of repenting and asking to be saved. Not a one. If they had done that He promised they would be saved.

Yes. That’s not even what I asked. I asked if there is any way to change what God already knows what will happen?

Since the choice to accept Him and salvation is TOTALLY up to us, it doesn't matter about God knowing the outcome. He is not to blame for wrong choices.

For instance, if God knows your neighbor will never believe, is there anything you can do to change that?

Since we don't know what God knows we must try! If they were saved or not totally depends on THEIR personal human choice.

 

[dad]

No, nobody does. They may believe lies, but not things they know are lies.

I don't agree. I think there comes a time when we choose to accept things not of God, that we get deluded strongly. All as a result of our own original choice...and heart condition.

 

[dad]

You assume wrongly about Saul, he was a Pharisee of Pharisees before his conversion. He had great zeal, and pride (at the time) in being a persecutor of early Christians...until Jesus knocked him off his horse with a question and blinded him. Saul wasn't seeking after Christ at all, he didn't ask Christ to "come into his heart", it was just the opposite, Christ came after him, Christ pursued him, and brought Saul into a most humbling submission. Thinking about it, I cannot imagine facing those you once persecuted, the shame and humility of it.

Baloney. You have no way of knowing what was going on in his heart and mind at that time. Your idea is seemingly like God swatted an evil man against his will, and presto chango the man was some saint. That is not the way it works. Yes he was knocked from the horse, but I have to believe it was because Paul had been seeking the truth. Just because he was caught up in the false religion of the day, and had a good job in it, does not mean he was above having a conscience, and praying sincerely. Since that is the way God works usually in the bible it is logical to assume it to be true here also.

 

[dad]

Saul served Yahweh , kept TORAH, with ZEAL, but in ignorance.
He never thought of serving Jesus until after struck down, as Yahweh and Jesus planned before the Creation of the world, and set Paul/Saul aside for the Gospel since his birth, as written.

Remember someone did pray for Saul, but it wasn't himself ..... it was someone he oversaw the execution of .... praying for him that he be forgiven , because he knew not what he did.

We have no idea what his heart was like or if he prayed sincerely or not at this time. You are guessing. I am looking at the rest of the bible, and how people repented and prayed as a guide to what probably happened.

 

[Hammster]

St. Paul is speaking in a past tense, to say that there was a time when they were children of wrath, but now that they have been saved (v4) they no longer walk in that way (ie: fulfilling the desires of their flesh and mind - Romans 12:2). Galatians 5:24 says specifically that we have crucified the desires of the flesh.

That’s not it. He says, and I quote, “among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”

He never says that they were once children of wrath, but their nature was that of the children of wrath.

 

[Hammster]

It seems that if someone wants to avoid the truth, their questions are never answered in a way satisfactory to them unless ....... .....

well , forget that. It is better to seek the truth, to seek Yahweh, as only He can enlighten someone's mind with understanding.

I think it more likely that if one wants to avoid the truth, they pretend to answer a question, but really don’t.

 

[dad]

That's what you got out of that post, wow.

I can see carefully prepared expositions don't appeal to you much. Cursed till the atonement Christ made at the cross.

Equally as cursed AFTER THE CROSS ALSO, UNLESS THEY CHOOSE TO ACCEPT THE GIFT MADE POSSIBLE BY THE CROSS!

If people do not repent and ask for the salvation Jesus offers, they remain under the curse.

No, we receive the ingrafted word described as incorruptible seed. That is a work of God, now I never disputed that there is a time of decision or some semblance of surrender, but everything is a work of God in salvation.

False, we have a part to play in salvation, we must choose Jesus. His work was to die for us, we must accept it..or not.

Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for sin is the essence of justification by grace through faith, no self respecting Calvinist would deny this.

The issue is whether we choose to try and believe and ask and accept, or whether it is all arranged in advance and we are but robots.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except by him. You want to emphasize how we must choose but you seem to forget what we are choosing isn't something apart from a work of God through special revelation, otherwise we will never make the insight into who Jesus Christ is or what he has done for us.

If not for the work of the cross we would not be ABLE to choose life and salvation. Now..we can, because of His work. His work was not forcing us to choose Him. (or reject Him and go to hell)

You must believe that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God, receive the Holy Spirit of promise which is where the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit comes from. Repentance itself is a work of God since the seat of moral reflection is poisoned by sin and we are weak in our natural selves.

We have a choice to repent or not! If we are sincere and want to believe and repent, He helps us..NOT predestinates us and forces us and makes the choice for us. What was pre destined was that He died for us and made the way.

Read the Pauline epistles much?

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Eph. 1:3-6)​

In simple terms and language I would express this as

'He chose to die for us, so we could become the group of believers we are' 'He chose that there would be Christians as a result of the sacrifice of the Lamb of God'.

NOT..'He choose individually for every person to be saved or damned beforehand'!

​

Sure, at the time of decision child like faith is sufficient, I don't know a single Calvinist that would deny that. Faith is a work of God in our lives, unless God makes the revelation to you you can do nothing. What is more repentance isn't as much an act of the will as a change of attitude that happens at the seat of moral reflection which is itself an act of God. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, another point of doctrine you have completely missed.

Wrong. The change can and does only come after the choice. We get an attitude adjustment...a new heart in us. Born again.

Oh, you are having a problem with the definition, why didn't you say so:

Predestine (προορίζω proorizō G4309) - from G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.​

He pre destined that HE would die for us and we could choose Him, who is salvation. He did not pre determine our choices.

For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done. (Act 4:28),​

That was not talking about you or me choosing to ask Jesus for salvation. Sorry.

Acts 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


In other words He plans that when the heathen rage against Jesus, that they be totally defeated. That does not mean He forced them to reject Jesus or accept Him. It means if people and kings do reject and fight Jesus, they are doomed to be clobbered.

For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)​

The pre determined thing was that those who chose Jesus would then be worked on and changed within. NOT that He picked who could accept Jesus!

Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:30)

Right, so those who choose Jesus are justified and will be glorified etc etc.

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory: (1Co 2:7)

The plan of salvation was a mystery. Not that He chose FOR us and that was the mystery!!

Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph 1:5)

Yes what was pre destined was that we could be adopted as His children BY choosing to do so! NOT that He made billions of people orphans and they had no choice.

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph 1:11)

It is destiny that anyone can have the inheritance who accepts Jesus. Not that their choice to do so was pre programmed!!​

​

That's the 7 times the word is used in 6 verses, along with the direct quotes where it is used.

Great, so hopefully you see the light now.

It pales in insignificance to what God has done for us, is what this Calvinist would tell you in no uncertain terms.

This is going in circles, predictable. There is nothing in those verses about being predestined to hell, that's an absurd strawman argument, no one is making. A child of perdition can be doomed to the lake of fire but it's not like God chose that for them. I wouldn't have so much a problem with arguments against predestination if it actually dealt with the formal doctrine, I haven't seen that much at all.

This is actually what people who know Jesus and the bible reject...that we have no real choice to accept or reject Jesus of oue own will. We could only be doomed after we choose to reject Jesus. We are not born saved or doomed.

God predestined that all who would be holy and blameless, adopted as sons and indwelled with the Holy Spirit of promise would do so in Christ. Your arguing against pagan fate, which has never had anything to do with Calvinist predestination.

Sorry but the messages we are getting from other Calvies here do not seem to agree with your assessment. I am arguing against ANY fate regarding a real ability to choose Jesus in this life.The pre determined bits come after people choose. We might say the 2 highways were build in advance and where they lead/go. What was NOT pre determined was our choice to take one or the other!

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9:14-16)​

Correct, we all can have mercy for the asking/choosing by Christ.

'It does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God mercy'.

Wrong. If we desire to know Jesus and repent and ask for salvation, then we can do so, because He made the way possible. It is not our works that save us. It is asking/choosing to avail ourselves of Jesus, and His work. His work was not stuffed down man's throats.

THAT is the gospel.​

 

[Hammster]

Since we don't know what God knows we must try! If they were saved or not totally depends on THEIR personal human choice.

I never said or implied that we shouldn’t try. That’s how souls are won. Faith comes by hearing. But, you and I can try all day long and if they are not to be saved, they won’t.