That's what you got out of that post, wow.
Cursed till we choose Jesus. Not after.
I can see carefully prepared expositions don't appeal to you much. Cursed till the atonement Christ made at the cross.
Yes, and the way we do that is choice. We choose to ask for and accept His free gift.
Of course what we are saved from and for isn't going to make it into the conversation, it never does.
Christians were chosen, yes. Because they chose Him
No, we receive the ingrafted word described as incorruptible seed. That is a work of God, now I never disputed that there is a time of decision or some semblance of surrender, but everything is a work of God in salvation. Believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for sin is the essence of justification by grace through faith, no self respecting Calvinist would deny this.
What he worked out was providing us a way to choose eternal life. That is the will of God.
Jesus is the way, the truth and the light, no one comes to the Father except by him. You want to emphasize how we must choose but you seem to forget what we are choosing isn't something apart from a work of God through special revelation, otherwise we will never make the insight into who Jesus Christ is or what he has done for us.
There we have it WHEN we chose to believe. Not before. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thous shalt be saved.
You must believe that Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Living God, receive the Holy Spirit of promise which is where the washing, renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit comes from. Repentance itself is a work of God since the seat of moral reflection is poisoned by sin and we are weak in our natural selves.
?? What does this even mean?
Read the Pauline epistles much?
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. (Eph. 1:3-6)
Thirty five times in the first three chapters Paul speaks of being saved, 'in Christ'. You don't know that God chose us before the foundation of the world to be holy, blameless and adopted sons through Christ? That's the gospel, there was never a plan b. You talk a lot about the fact that we believe, but not so much about what we are supposed to believe.
What was determined before was that all who believe in Jesus, (ask to be saved) would be saved. THAT is how.
Sure, at the time of decision child like faith is sufficient, I don't know a single Calvinist that would deny that. Faith is a work of God in our lives, unless God makes the revelation to you you can do nothing. What is more repentance isn't as much an act of the will as a change of attitude that happens at the seat of moral reflection which is itself an act of God. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, another point of doctrine you have completely missed.
Well, long as you define 'predestinity' as having the choice, fine. Too bad that is not really what most people define it as.
Oh, you are having a problem with the definition, why didn't you say so:
Predestine (
προορίζω proorizō G4309) - from
G4253 and
G3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate.
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done. (Act 4:28),
For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom 8:30)
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory: (1Co 2:7)
Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (Eph 1:5)
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph 1:11)
That's the 7 times the word is used in 6 verses, along with the direct quotes where it is used.
No. The issue here is whether billions of people were pre fated to go to hell, and others pre fated to go to heaven regardless of choice. We just had one Calvie here recently say that our choice was 'insignificant'.
It pales in insignificance to what God has done for us, is what this Calvinist would tell you in no uncertain terms.
This is going in circles, predictable. There is nothing in those verses about being predestined to hell, that's an absurd strawman argument, no one is making. A child of perdition can be doomed to the lake of fire but it's not like God chose that for them. I wouldn't have so much a problem with arguments against predestination if it actually dealt with the formal doctrine, I haven't seen that much at all.
God predestined that all who would be holy and blameless, adopted as sons and indwelled with the Holy Spirit of promise would do so in Christ. Your arguing against pagan fate, which has never had anything to do with Calvinist predestination.
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. (Romans 9:14-16)
'It does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God mercy'. That is how the gospel works, it always depends on what God does for us and in us, not of works lest any man should boast.
Grace and peace,
Mark
