Did God predestine the Fall?

[Serving Zion]

No, you just posted other scripture. I showed you that we are like children of wrath. Please address that scripture and we will move on.

I showed you scripture saying that I was not born that way and I didn't ask to be that way, and the fact that God plonked me here in this world that tempts me to be that way means that I deserve to be saved.. and the same goes for anyone who calls upon His name for salvation! .. else, what kind of mercy is Genesis 6:8?

 

[Serving Zion]

It says that Christ is the propitiation. God’s wrath was satisfied.

God's wrath wasn't satisfied by that though (1 Thessalonians 2:16).

 

[Serving Zion]

It says that Christ is the propitiation. God’s wrath was satisfied.

I think you have a certain song in mind that you are mistaking as being scripture .. but it is not scripture to say that "on that cross He died, God's wrath was satisfied" - it is a false doctrine. You would do well to inquire and learn.

 

[Hammster]

I showed you scripture saying that I was not born that way and I didn't ask to be that way, and the fact that God plonked me here in this world that tempts me to be that way means that I deserve to be saved.. and the same goes for anyone who calls upon His name for salvation! .. else, what kind of mercy is Genesis 6:8?

Once again, you didn’t address the scripture I posted.

Have a good day.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I'm not sure if you realise how irresponsible that is ("sloth" is a mortal sin). Please consider James 5:19-20, Mark 9:41, 1 John 3:17 and Ephesians 4:16.

I think where the irresponsibility comes in, is in rejecting the plain teaching of Scripture:

Isaiah 53:10

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand."

You said, and I quote: "No I do not support any doctrine that says "God wanted to crush Him".

Instead of humbly submitting to God and loving your brother saying "sorry, guess I was wrong on that point", rather you point the proverbial finger at me and charge me with being "sloth" for what, for not spending hours on a full response on an internet forum where these things are common, and in a thread 300+ responses in, which not many are likely to have the endurance or patience or desire to read anyway. Just face up to fact you were wrong and talk to God about it, do I need to say we are all prone to error? The difference is in being able to man up to them. I hope you will in private at least. Lord have mercy.

 

[Serving Zion]

Once again, you didn’t address the scripture I posted.

Have a good day.

You just aren't reading me at all.

 

[Serving Zion]

I think where the irresponsibility comes in, is in rejecting the plain teaching of Scripture:

I agree with this, but you are not reading it right.

Isaiah 53:10

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand."

You said, and I quote: "No I do not support any doctrine that says "God wanted to crush Him".

Instead of humbly submitting to God and loving your brother saying "sorry, guess I was wrong on that point", rather you point the proverbial finger at me and charge me with being "sloth" for what, for not spending hours on a full response on an internet forum where these things are common, and in a thread 300+ responses in, which not many are likely to have the endurance or patience or desire to read anyway.

No, it is that you are wrong, and I have explained with much patience, but you are not interested to know, so you are stuck in your view, which is wrong. I do not reject scripture, I only read it for what it actually says and not for what someone has taught me to think it says.

Just face up to fact you were wrong and talk to God about it, do I need to say we are all prone to error? The difference is in being able to man up to them. I hope you will in private at least.

You have no right to make that judgement of me, and you have returned evil for good.

Lord have mercy.

I don't know why He should. You are not doing any good service here.

 

[redleghunter]

Well we have to look at the entirety of what the Scriptures teach. John the Baptist also said behold the lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world. Which the Jews would understand Leviticus 16

God's wrath wasn't satisfied by Jesus' crucifixion, as the apostates teach. It was extinguished.

Well that is odd:

Romans 5: NASB

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.(NASB)

Verse 9 says it all. Paul sets up verse 9 in chapter 1:

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

It was the wrath of man that crucified Him, because they "hated the light and refused to go near it for fear their deeds would be exposed" (John 3:19-21).

No it was Christ satisfying the wrath due us as children of wrath.

 

[redleghunter]

Just to be clear: the false doctrines of Inherited Sin teach that children are spiritually condemned because of the sin of Adam.. but I reject that doctrine.

Then you condemn Paul.

Romans 5: NASB
15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which camethrough the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arosefrom many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.(NASB)

There’s a reason original sin was an early church doctrine. Because it was apostolic teachings. There’s no wiggle room in the above text to suggest otherwise we are all under condemnation for the one transgression.

 

[redleghunter]

To reject the fact that children are born pure and without sin, spiritually alive, is to condemn the innocent - and that is an inferior spirit that doesn't belong in Christianity, it is a perversion of justice and a root of all the lies that 2 Peter 2:2 "many follow their depraved conduct and bring the way of truth into disrepute".

An out of context ad hominem is not an argument.

 

[redleghunter]

I did. You are not listening (We are from God; whoever knows God listens to us, but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.).

The self appointed prophet message is a form of ad hominem as well.

 

[redleghunter]

God's wrath wasn't satisfied by that though (1 Thessalonians 2:16).

That verse is not helping you.

 

[redleghunter]

I agree with this, but you are not reading it right.

No, it is that you are wrong, and I have explained with much patience, but you are not interested to know, so you are stuck in your view, which is wrong. I do not reject scripture, I only read it for what it actually says and not for what someone has taught me to think it says.

You have no right to make that judgement of me, and you have returned evil for good.

I don't know why He should. You are not doing any good service here.

Can you exegete Isaiah 53 please instead of just saying it doesn’t say what it actually says?

 

[Serving Zion]

That verse is not helping you.

How about you explain yourself for saying this?

 

[Serving Zion]

Then you condemn Paul.

No, I don't condemn St. Paul, but rather I defend him. I am proclaiming that you are misreading Paul and twisting what he has said. Furthermore, you don't understand the wrath of God. That is why your speech is without grace, and you are not paying attention to what is being said, only wanting to dominate to win a debate.

 

[Serving Zion]

The self appointed prophet message is a form of ad hominem as well.

That's ok to say, but it doesn't invalidate my point. You do not hear what I say because you have the spirit of error.

 

[Serving Zion]

Romans 5:9 says it all.

It says that we will be saved from the wrath of God through Him: that is, just as John 3:36 says "the one who does not obey the son, the wrath of God abides on him".

You do not understand the wrath of God - that wrath that drove them to nail Jesus to the cross because they were suffering condemnation in His presence (John 3:19), the wrath that drove them to cover their ears when Stephen spoke to them. It is the same wrath that when you are condemned for speaking blasphemy against children, you cover your ears and refuse to hear too. I bet that if I was speaking to your face, you would have some feeling of rage that you would want to get violent (that is what happens - they hate the light).

Here is an article that I wrote that helps to explain the wrath of God: Adonai Reigns : Food For Thought : Wrath of God: Divine Punishment?

No it was Christ satisfying the wrath due us as children of wrath.

No it wasn't, that is the devil's doctrine. God says "it is not wrath in me! .. who will confront me with thorns and briars in the day of battle? I would trample them altogether and set them on fire!" (Isaiah 27:4).

No, as I said, they could not endure the wrath of God that was coming upon them for their disobedience, and they were driven to murder because they refused to repent. (That is the same course that you are on by fixing yourself on such heresy, btw).

 

[Serving Zion]

Can you exegete Isaiah 53 please instead of just saying it doesn’t say what it actually says?

Start at post #317 and let me know what more you need.

 

[dad]

Because the Scriptures are loaded with "religious labels"? From where or what are they based on? Gibberish eh? What a sound scholarly rebuttal, one only need to insert pejorative labels like "monster" and "gibberish" into their conversations to have confidence they are servants of the way, the truth, and the life.

If they show that the false teaching that God predestined billions to hell, that is perpetuated by certain religious pretenders, they don't need to insert anything into the truth.

 

[dad]

You should care. It helps with humility.

Admitting you are wrong also helps.