Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

[JIMINZ]

OK, you are here. Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

If yes, then how can you have free will?

You have begun a thread by asking a question about a subject you are assuming is true, in order to disprove it.

If you cannot prove Free Will does not exist, without asking the question the way you have.

Then you cannot prove Free Will does exist, in order to ask your question in the first place.

 

[Hazelelponi]

OK, you are here. Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

If yes, then how can you have free will? For you had to click that button, and there is no way you could have done anything but read this.

But if God did not know, how can he be all knowing?

The question really is, did God know you question His omniscience?

The answer is yes, He knows...

 

[doubtingmerle]

When I decided to click the button I could have decided not to click the button, as soon as I did click the button, God then knew what choice I made and provided that information to Himself way before I clicked the button, so God knew before I clicked the button that I would (because I did) click the button.

10 seconds before you clicked the button, did God know you were going to do it?

 

[Aussie Pete]

OK, I asked everybody else for their answer. Here is my answer.

First, I won't include God. (I have no need for that hypothesis.) I will word it a little differently: If the current state of matter and energy around me were known exactly, would it be theoretically possible to conclude what I would do, with me unable to do otherwise? Immediately we run into the problem that Heisenberg's uncertainty principle makes it impossible to know the exact state of things. Say the current state was known as well as theoretically possible. Would my future actions then be predetermined?

I tend to think not. The cumulative quantum affects would allow me to make different decisions. An exact duplicate of me in two universes might make one decision in one universe, and a different decision in another.

Or maybe not. Maybe "exact" duplicates of me would always make the same decision. In that case, I--that is, the matter and energy that I consist of--am not free to do what "I" choose.

So it may or may not be that the current state of matter and energy has predetermined everything I do from now on.

So I see it is one way or the other. Either the entire state of the universe predetermines my actions (in which case I had no freedom to choose otherwise) or the universe leaves it to chance quantum effects. I see it is one of the other. I cannot buy the convoluted arguments I see here that claim that somehow it it all cast in stone, but yet I still have a choice.

The only convolution is your proposition. You make a decision. God knows what you will do. He may or or may not intervene. He saved my life by speaking to me before I carried out a decision that would have been catastrophic. If God intervenes, you may or may not change your decision. God knows if you will or will not. Him knowing what you will do has nothing to do with your ability to choose or not. Of course you are free to choose. Otherwise you are a helpless puppet. That is not how God created us.

 

[cloudyday2]

You have predetermined the outcome of your question before you asked it by qualifying it with ("That nobody can predict including God.")

Therefore, your question is based upon a false premise, which negates any answer given other than what you have already Predetermined.

You've got me confused with @doubtingmerle who asked the question in the OP. I'm trying to help answer the question.

 

[bling]

10 seconds before you clicked the button, did God know you were going to do it?

ten seconds in God's time may not even exist there is no "before" for God, but in my time He knew from the beginning of my time if I chose to push the button.
What you want to say: "if God knew 10 seconds ahead of time He could have stopped you, but it does not depend on what he could do but what He did do, since already happened as far as god is concerned.

 

[Radagast]

Back to the question: Do we or do we not have the option to do something different from what God foreknows we will do?

That's an incoherent question.

 

[Radagast]

When I decided to click the button I could have decided not to click the button, as soon as I did click the button, God then knew what choice I made and provided that information to Himself way before I clicked the button, so God knew before I clicked the button that I would (because I did) click the button.

That presupposes that God is in time, which He isn't.

 

[Radagast]

You have begun a thread by asking a question about a subject you are assuming is true, in order to disprove it.

Also very carefully not specifying which version of "free will" he is talking about.

 

[Radagast]

God must be surprised occasionally by our behavior.

Why? If God is "surprised by our behaviour," then He isn't omniscient.

If God isn't omniscient, then He isn't God.

 

[cloudyday2]

Why? If God is "surprised by our behaviour," then He isn't omniscient.

If God isn't omniscient, then He isn't God.

(1) I'm not convinced that God must be omniscient
(2) If we imagine that the future does not exist until it happens then God doesn't need to know the future. We can define "omniscient" to mean "knowing everything about the universe that is knowable so far".

 

[Radagast]

(1) I'm not convinced that God must be omniscient

Yes, but you're an agnostic; you're not convinced that God exists at all.

For the Christian concept of God, omniscience is an essential attribute (my understanding is that the same is true for Islam, as taught in Al-Hujurat 16).

However, Christians understand God as existing outside of time, so that the whole concept of "God does not know this yet" is incoherent from a Christian point of view.

(2) If we imagine that the future does not exist until it happens then God doesn't need to know the future.

AKA the growing block universe: Growing block universe - Wikipedia

That is a perspective that's inconsistent both with special relativity (which does not permit a single universe-wide "now") and with Christian theology.

We can define "omniscient" to mean "knowing everything about the universe that is knowable so far".

If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have? Answer: 4.

 

[doubtingmerle]

That's an incoherent question.

Why is it incoherent to ask if we can do something different from what God knows we will do? Do you or do you not have free will?

 

[Radagast]

Why is it incoherent to ask if we can do something different from what God knows we will do?

Because knowledge is, by definition, justified true belief. If God knows X, then X must be true. Hence, if God knows that I will eat eggs for breakfast tomorrow, it must be the case that I will eat eggs for breakfast tomorrow.

You're seem to be trying for the modal logic equivalent of "Can God create a stone heavier than he can lift?", which is equally incoherent, and equally pedestrian.

Do you or do you not have free will?

I've already pointed out that there are several definitions of "free will." Not specifying which one you are talking about suggests bad faith.

God's omniscience is fairly obviously compatible with compatibilist free will. For other definitions of free will, your mileage may vary. See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

 

[doubtingmerle]

The question really is, did God know you question His omniscience?

The answer is yes, He knows...

There was a follow-up question that you ignored.

If yes, then how can you have free will? For you had to click that button, and there is no way you could have done anything but read this.

Care to address that question?

 

[doubtingmerle]

If God knows X, then X must be true. Hence, if God knows that I will eat eggs for breakfast tomorrow, it must be the case that I will eat eggs for breakfast tomorrow.

Wait, we actually have a person here that addresses questions.



So for you, faith does not consist of repeating memorized talking points. You deal with questions.

Multiple people have said that question cannot be answered. You just answered the unanswerable question.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I've already pointed out that there are several definitions of "free will." Not specifying which one you are talking about suggests bad faith.

If God knows you will eat eggs tomorrow, you have said it must be the case that you will eat eggs tomorrow. That does not sound like free will to me. So explain to me, please, your definition of free will which, for some people, has meant that they could not choose to avoid eggs the next day. That does not sound like free will to me.

 

[Radagast]

If God knows you will eat eggs tomorrow, you have said it must be the case that you will eat eggs tomorrow. That does not sound like free will to me. So explain to me, please, your definition of free will which, for some people, has meant that they could not choose to avoid eggs the next day. That does not sound like free will to me.

I've already pointed out that there are several definitions of "free will." The words "that does not sound like free will to me" do not constitute a rigorous philosophical argument.

God's omniscience is fairly obviously compatible with compatibilist free will, which is the definition I hold to personally. See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/compatibilism/

In particular, when I have eggs for breakfast tomorrow (if indeed that is what I will do) it will be because that's what I want to do (or because I've got eggs in the refrigerator and I'm too lazy to go out and buy breakfast cereal). There is no incompatibility with God's foreknowledge there.

For other definitions of free will, your mileage may vary. See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/free-will-foreknowledge/

 

[cloudyday2]

If God knows you will eat eggs tomorrow, you have said it must be the case that you will eat eggs tomorrow. That does not sound like free will to me. So explain to me, please, your definition of free will which, for some people, has meant that they could not choose to avoid eggs the next day. That does not sound like free will to me.

What if God knows that he will eat eggs tomorrow? It seems that God would sacrifice his own ability to choose and change his mind in favor of his ability to know the future.

 

[Radagast]

What if God knows that he will eat eggs tomorrow?

God doesn't eat eggs.

And since God is outside of time, terms like "past" and "future" do not apply to God Himself, but only to the created Universe.