Did God know if you were going to read this thread?

[Qwertyui0p]

Ah, so if God told you what I was choosing for breakfast tomorrow and you told me, that would be a problem. I would just choose something else, and the wave collapses.


Uh, huh. It is like eating at an ice cream shop that serves any flavor you want, provided you want vanilla.

Likewise you can do anything you want to do tomorrow, but you can't possibly want to do anything different from what the script says you will want to do.

In your view every thing you do today is already written down. Every breath you take. Every move you make. Every bond you break, every step you take. (He'll be watching you.) Every single day and every word you say. Every game you play, every night you stay, it will all be scripted beforehand. You will do nothing more than act out the script that had been written out for all eternity. And in your view you cannot possibly do anything different from what the script says you will do today. It is all cast in stone. If the script says you next move your left foot forward, you cannot possibly even want to move your right foot forward. If it says you will hit reply, you cannot possibly choose not to. If it says you will ignore my post, you cannot possibly respond. It has all been scripted. There is not a thing you can do to change it.

If you want to call that freewill, fine. But that does not sound like freewill to me.

I'm not a Calvinist.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I'm not a Calvinist.

I didn't say you were a Calvinist.

I just said that, in your view, everything that you will do tomorrow is already cast in stone today. You cannot possibly do one thing different from what has already been cast in stone for all eternity past. That is your view, yes?

 

[Qwertyui0p]

I didn't say you were a Calvinist.

I just said that, in your view, everything that you will do tomorrow is already cast in stone today. You cannot possibly do one thing different from what has already been cast in stone for all eternity past. That is your view, yes?

No, and I never said so.

 

[doubtingmerle]

No, and I never said so.

OK, this was in response to: "in your view, everything that you will do tomorrow is already cast in stone today. You cannot possibly do one thing different from what has already been cast in stone for all eternity past."

So now you claim that your view is the opposite. Fine. Then, in your view, everything that you will do tomorrow is not already cast in stone today. You can possibly do things different from anything that has already been cast in stone that you will do.

So therefore the record that God has from all eternity past about what you will do tomorrow might be wrong. You can do things different from what he knows.

Your God must not be all knowing.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

OK, this was in response to: "in your view, everything that you will do tomorrow is already cast in stone today. You cannot possibly do one thing different from what has already been cast in stone for all eternity past."

So now you claim that your view is the opposite. Fine. Then, in your view, everything that you will do tomorrow is not already cast in stone today. You can possibly do things different from anything that has already been cast in stone that you will do.

So therefore the record that God has from all eternity past about what you will do tomorrow might be wrong. You can do things different from what he knows.

Your God must not be all knowing.

Here we go again. God knows what I will do because I will choose to do it, and if I were to choose to do something else, God would know that instead.
It's really quite simple and I don't see how this is a problem.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Ok, everything you will do today is already known.

If everything you will do today is already known, do you have the option of doing anything different from what God already knows you will do? Yes or no, please.

Let me guess. You will just ignore that question, yes?

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Ok, everything you will do today is already known.

If everything you will do today is already known, do you have the option of doing anything different from what God already knows you will do? Yes or no, please.

Let me guess. You will just ignore that question, yes?

I am not ignoring the question! I have answered it, as have many others. Perhaps you don't understand because you aren't thinking outside of time. That God knows my choices beforehand, does not mean he is making those choices for me, and although I am not going to choose anything else, since it is still my choice, my free will is not violated.

 

[doubtingmerle]

I am not ignoring the question! I have answered it, as have many others. Perhaps you don't understand because you aren't thinking outside of time. That God knows my choices beforehand, does not mean he is making those choices for me, and although I am not going to choose anything else, since it is still my choice, my free will is not violated.

Ok, so you do not have the option to do anything different from what God knows will happen. Everything you will do tomorrow is already determined, in your view, and there is nothing you can do to change it.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Ok, so you do not have the option to do anything different from what God knows will happen. Everything you will do tomorrow is already determined, in your view, and there is nothing you can do to change it.

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even though nothing will happen that contradicts God's fore knowledge, what God knows will happen is determined by what will happen, rather than vice versa.

 

[doubtingmerle]

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You say this in response to, "Everything you will do tomorrow is already determined, in your view, and there is nothing you can do to change it."

OK so if it is not true that everything you will do tomorrow is already determined, then it must be true that some things you do tomorrow are undetermined.

In that case, your God does not know everything. He does not know everything you will do tomorrow.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

You say this in response to, "Everything you will do tomorrow is already determined, in your view, and there is nothing you can do to change it."

OK so if it is not true that everything you will do tomorrow is already determined, then it must be true that some things you do tomorrow are undetermined.

In that case, your God does not know everything. He does not know everything you will do tomorrow.

Please explain how knowing something will happen beforehand is part and parcel with being the sole determining factor of it.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Please explain how knowing something will happen beforehand is part and parcel with being the sole determining factor of it.

Suppose God were to give me a script of everything you will do tomorrow. Then I sit back and watch everything you do.

Do you or do you not say that every single thing you do tomorrow will be exactly as the script says will happen?

Do you or do you not say that there is nothing that could possibly change the fact that you will exactly follow the script that I would be holding in my hand?

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Suppose God were to give me a script of everything you will do tomorrow. Then I sit back and watch everything you do.

Do you or do you not say that every single thing you do tomorrow will be exactly as the script says will happen?

Do you or do you not say that there is nothing that could possibly change the fact that you will exactly follow the script that I would be holding in my hand?

I agree that I would do nothing different from what the script says.
However, this has no bearing on my free will.

That is because what the script says is determined by what I will do tomorrow, even though the script was created beforehand.

If I were to go swimming tomorrow, the script would say that. If I were to play golf instead, the script would say that. In both cases what I choose to do determines what the script will tell you I will do, even though you know what I will do before I do it.

Do you understand now?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I agree that I would do nothing different from what the script says.

Say what?

Last time when I asked you if you would do everything tomorrow that had been predetermined, you said, "No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That is an exact quote of what you said in response to that question.

Now you say yes. Could you make up your mind, please?

However, this has no bearing on my free will.

That is because what the script says is determined by what I will do tomorrow, even though the script was created beforehand.

If I were to go swimming tomorrow, the script would say that. If I were to play golf instead, the script would say that. In both cases what I choose to do determines what the script will tell you I will do, even though you know what I will do before I do it.

Do you understand now?

Yes, of course I understand that you think this does not change your freewill. You and others have said that repeatedly. I still see a problem with calling this freewill.

In the scenario we discussed, I am holding a script in my hand written by God detailing everything you will do in the future. I am watching you in a camera. The script says in 5 minutes you will read my post. Sure enough, my post comes up on your screen exactly when my script says it will. My script says you will hit the reply button. You do exactly what the script says. My script says you will type the word "I". You do. Then it says you will type "agree that". You do. Then it says you will write "I would do nothing different from what the script says." You write it out exactly as the script says. If the script had said you will write it out 100 times, you would have written, "I would do nothing different from what the script says. I would do nothing different from what the script says. I would..." The script says you will do it. You will do it. And it would be impossible for events to transpire in any other way than what the script says. And yes, you may tell us that it just so happens that your freewill always chooses to do exactly what is written beforehand in that script. But I have a hard time believing that the person that is following that script is truly free.

 

[Qwertyui0p]

Say what?

Last time when I asked you if you would do everything tomorrow that had been predetermined, you said, "No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" That is an exact quote of what you said in response to that question.

Now you say yes. Could you make up your mind, please?

I have not changed my position one single time throughout this entire circular discussion.

Yes, of course I understand that you think this does not change your freewill. You and others have said that repeatedly. I still see a problem with calling this freewill.

In the scenario we discussed, I am holding a script in my hand written by God detailing everything you will do in the future. I am watching you in a camera. The script says in 5 minutes you will read my post. Sure enough, my post comes up on your screen exactly when my script says it will. My script says you will hit the reply button. You do exactly what the script says. My script says you will type the word "I". You do. Then it says you will type "agree that". You do. Then it says you will write "I would do nothing different from what the script says." You write it out exactly as the script says. If the script had said you will write it out 100 times, you would have written, "I would do nothing different from what the script says. I would do nothing different from what the script says. I would..." The script says you will do it. You will do it. And it would be impossible for events to transpire in any other way than what the script says. And yes, you may tell us that it just so happens that your freewill always chooses to do exactly what is written beforehand in that script. But I have a hard time believing that the person that is following that script is truly free.

I just want you to give a simple, yes/no answer to this question, and I will explain how this is relevant once I know we are on the same page.

Suppose God gave you a written account of everything I did yesterday. Would you say that I don't have free will, and I couldn't have done anything else, based on the fact that you have an entirely truthful account of everything I did?

 

[doubtingmerle]

I have not changed my position one single time throughout this entire circular discussion.




I just want you to give a simple, yes/no answer to this question, and I will explain how this is relevant once I know we are on the same page.

Suppose God gave you a written account of everything I did yesterday. Would you say that I don't have free will, and I couldn't have done anything else, based on the fact that you have an entirely truthful account of everything I did?

no

 

[Qwertyui0p]

no

Now suppose the manuscript was sent back in time. I am not going to anything different from what it says, but since what it says is determined by what I will do, I still have free will.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Now suppose the manuscript was sent back in time. I am not going to anything different from what it says, but since what it says is determined by what I will do, I still have free will.

I well understand the claim.

Once again, if everything I will do can be written down before I do it, then it is hard to see that I really have free will. For I then have no choice but to do what is written down.