Did God gather Israel in 1948? I think not

[SuperCow]

Just to be clear, what scriptures make no sense unless GOD gathers them in 1948?

Perhaps "make no sense" is too strong. Everyone interprets and contorts these things every which way they want to suit their theology.

Amos gives the strongest argument in this regard. He prophesied during the reign of Jereboam II, according to Amos 1:1, when both kingdoms still were active monarchies. It starts off with several prophecies of a bunch of nations in the first chapters before zeroing in on Israel. Without a detailed analysis, we probably both believe they have come true.

Amos 9:1-10 predicts Israel's final downfall, which we know happened after their conquest by Assyria. Amos 9:11-14 says Israel will be restored. (Judah is mentioned separately in chapter 2 only. This is specific to Israel.) Israel was not restored by Persia, only the remnant of Judah was. Israel was already scattered by this time. (Other than a small remnant of ordinary citizens invited to passover by King Hezekiah of Judah)
Amos 9:15 confirms that this was not the restoration under Cyrus:
I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the Lord your God.

If it was the restoration under Cyrus then the prophecy has failed, because Judea was conquered and its citizens were deported out of the region in 70 AD by the Romans.

Furthermore, most of the prophecies about Israel's restoration have some kind of phrase like "...all the nations shall know that I am the LORD". Since all the nations are destroyed at Armageddon, a literalist would say that there are no nations to know, only the surviving remnant, even though they might have been living in those nations at the time. Unless some of this occurs before the tribulation.

 

[SuperCow]

That will likely never happen. If anyone thinks we need to wait for every Jew to move to Israel before the Tribulation, I suggest they have another think coming. A more concise indicator might be that the coalition slated to invade the nation is already mostly in place.

You wouldn't have to. Many of them don't even consider themselves Jewish anymore. And as you said, many of them are not righteous. But they may have family members that are. And if they don't wish to right now, it says nothing of conditions in the future. Anti-Semitism is on the rise again, and not just in Islamic countries, but in Europe and maybe here as well. The worse it becomes, the more incentive they will have to move to a country that gives them automatic citizenship if they are Jewish.

 

[BABerean2]

Great, so when all Israel is saved in the end, they will no longer be separated. Anything else?

The text does not say "when" Israel will be saved. Instead it says "how" Israel will be saved.
This method of "how" Israel will be saved refers back to verse 23.
It is a description of the manner, rather than the timing.
Does this "all" Israel refer also to the Baal worshippers in Romans 11:1-5, or does it refer to the faithful "remnant" in Romans 11:5? See Romans 9:27 for the answer.


Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
Total KJV occurrences: 212

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[power1]

The text does not say "when" Israel will be saved. Instead it says "how" Israel will be saved.
This method of "how" Israel will be saved refers back to verse 23.
It is a description of the manner, rather than the timing.
Does this "all" Israel refer also to the Baal worshippers in Romans 11:1-5, or does it refer to the faithful "remnant" in Romans 11:5? See Romans 9:27 for the answer.

OK, so a remnant will get saved.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

All believing Israel shall be saved. Not all people who have lived in Israel, or had Jewish roots.

G3779
οὕτω
houtō
hoo'-to
Or, before a vowel, οὕτως houtōs hoo'-toce.
From G3778; in this way (referring to what precedes or follows): - after that, after (in) this manner, as, even (so), for all that, like (-wise), no more, on this fashion (-wise), so (in like manner), thus, what.
Total KJV occurrences: 212

.

Not sure what point you are trying to make here. It seems to be saying that once all the gentiles who will be saved are saved, (fullness of the gentiles), so will all that is left of Israel (the remnant who accepts Jesus) be saved. Anything else?

 

[power1]

You wouldn't have to. Many of them don't even consider themselves Jewish anymore. And as you said, many of them are not righteous. But they may have family members that are. And if they don't wish to right now, it says nothing of conditions in the future. Anti-Semitism is on the rise again, and not just in Islamic countries, but in Europe and maybe here as well. The worse it becomes, the more incentive they will have to move to a country that gives them automatic citizenship if they are Jewish.

The thing is, it doesn't matter if the want to move there or not. All that matters is if they believe in their messiah. When He comes, He will take all the believing remnant and bring them back there Himself. That is when He gathers them.

 

[power1]

Perhaps "make no sense" is too strong. Everyone interprets and contorts these things every which way they want to suit their theology.

Amos gives the strongest argument in this regard. He prophesied during the reign of Jereboam II, according to Amos 1:1, when both kingdoms still were active monarchies. It starts off with several prophecies of a bunch of nations in the first chapters before zeroing in on Israel. Without a detailed analysis, we probably both believe they have come true.

Amos 9:1-10 predicts Israel's final downfall, which we know happened after their conquest by Assyria. Amos 9:11-14 says Israel will be restored. (Judah is mentioned separately in chapter 2 only. This is specific to Israel.) Israel was not restored by Persia, only the remnant of Judah was. Israel was already scattered by this time. (Other than a small remnant of ordinary citizens invited to passover by King Hezekiah of Judah)

That is future. The plowman does not overtake the reaper today.

Amos 9:15 confirms that this was not the restoration under Cyrus:
I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them, says the Lord your God.

If it was the restoration under Cyrus then the prophecy has failed, because Judea was conquered and its citizens were deported out of the region in 70 AD by the Romans.

Since it is future, correct, it is not history.

Furthermore, most of the prophecies about Israel's restoration have some kind of phrase like "...all the nations shall know that I am the LORD". Since all the nations are destroyed at Armageddon, a literalist would say that there are no nations to know, only the surviving remnant, even though they might have been living in those nations at the time. Unless some of this occurs before the tribulation.

There is no process of restoration, GOD restores them. That will be after the repent. Not today. Not yesterday. Yes there will be nations since we know Jesus will judge them.

 

[BABerean2]

OK, so a remnant will get saved.


All believing Israel shall be saved. Not all people who have lived in Israel, or had Jewish roots.
Not sure what point you are trying to make here. It seems to be saying that once all the gentiles who will be saved are saved, (fullness of the gentiles), so will all that is left of Israel (the remnant who accepts Jesus) be saved. Anything else?

Based on the words of Christ below, the fullness of the Gentiles comes at the Second Coming of Christ.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Based on Paul's words below, nobody will be saved on the day of His Second Coming, when He comes in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not obey the Gospel.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

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[Bobber]

To my way of thinking God did bring Israel back into the land. He did so this time not so much that they were a righteous people as he might have in times past but rather for one reason. God gave promise that Christ would sit upon the throne in Israel and in order for that to happen the nation would have to exist. How things occurred in 48 and the 6 Day War of 67, I just can't believe those things were coincidence. There has to be something very supernatural about it.

 

[BABerean2]

How things occurred in 48 and the 6 Day War of 67, I just can't believe those things were coincidence. There has to be something very supernatural about it.

Almost nobody talks about June 8,1967, which occurred during the 6 Day War. On that day the Israelis attacked the U.S.S. Liberty. Very few Americans even known the attack occurred, because the survivors were threatened with Court Martial if they told what happened that day. Some are now speaking the truth in the book "Remember the Liberty".


The Day Israel attacked America:

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[power1]

Based on the words of Christ below, the fullness of the Gentiles comes at the Second Coming of Christ.

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That makes sense, since all who will be saved of the Gentiles (and even Israel) will be saved when He returns to earth.

 

[SuperCow]

Almost nobody talks about June 8,1967, which occurred during the 6 Day War. On that day the Israelis attacked the U.S.S. Liberty. Very few Americans even known the attack occurred, because the survivors were threatened with Court Martial if they told what happened that day. Some are now speaking the truth in the book "Remember the Liberty".

The Day Israel attacked America:

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I saw that story about 10 years ago on the History Channel. Not sure how it's relevant to this thread.

 

[BABerean2]

I saw that story about 10 years ago on the History Channel. Not sure how it's relevant to this thread.

I have heard preachers describe the 6 Day War as a miracle of God, but how many of them mentioned the Israelis attack on the U.S.S. Liberty?


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[SuperCow]

I have heard preachers describe the 6 Day War as a miracle of God, but how many of them mentioned the Israelis attack on the U.S.S. Liberty?

Preachers are imperfect humans, and don't have any more credibility regarding what is or is not a miracle than any of us, regardless of how much study they have.

Battles that are won with superior tactics and/or overwhelming military force are not typically described as a miracle, even in the Biblical battles. Most often ancient Israel is outnumbered, and God won the day for them by confusing the enemy, causing them to kill each other or do inexplicably stupid things.

The 1973 Yom Kippur war would better fit the pattern of a miracle than the 1967 battle. This is because once the 1967 battle started there was never much doubt who was winning, but in 1973 the surprise was on the other foot and they could have been defeated.

Anyway, the U.S.S. Liberty was an unfortunate accident; which often happens during wartime. It is not particularly noteworthy to determining whether the 6 day war was a miracle of God one way or the other. I'd lean on it not being a God-given miracle, because in the past he has made it obvious when he wanted credit. If he already knows Israel will win, and it isn't time for him to reveal his purpose, then he doesn't have to do anything. He can let the wars play out.

 

[BABerean2]

Anyway, the U.S.S. Liberty was an unfortunate accident; which often happens during wartime.

If you listen to the testimony of the survivors in the book "Remember the Liberty", and in the video above, you will hear them say loudly, and clearly, it was no "accident".

Audio recordings of the Israeli pilots were captured by a spy plane during the time and have now been released to the public. These recordings reveal the pilots knew it was an American ship.

All of this is revealed in the video in Post #69 above.

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[SuperCow]

If you listen to the testimony of the survivors in the book "Remember the Liberty", and in the video above, you will hear them say loudly, and clearly, it was no "accident".

Audio recordings of the Israeli pilots were captured by a spy plane during the time and have now been released to the public. These recordings reveal the pilots knew it was an American ship.

All of this is revealed in the video in Post #69 above.

Okay, but so what? Nobody is blameless in war. Whether it was intentionally done by some rogue military general, or whether the United States knew about it as well for some classified propaganda purpose doesn't change the fact that it was a mistake. We just don't know if it was a mistake in orders, or a mistake in the geo-political aftermath gone wrong, or if someone on the ship was targeted for some nefarious reason. Interviews of the lower level officers or enlisted men won't tell you the reason.

Everyone already knows that governments around the world do evil things for evil, tactical, or misguided reasons. Wikileaks was probably the tip of the iceberg.

 

[BABerean2]

Okay, but so what? Nobody is blameless in war. Whether it was intentionally done by some rogue military general, or whether the United States knew about it as well for some classified propaganda purpose doesn't change the fact that it was a mistake.

When something is done on purpose, it is not a "mistake".

Papers in the Library of Lyndon Johnson suggest Johnson wanted the ship sunk so that the U.S. could blame it on Egypt and bring the U.S. into the war against Egypt. Johnson also wanted to get re-elected. When the admiral of the 6th fleet sent aircraft to help the Liberty, Johnson ordered the admiral to recall the aircraft.

One thing went wrong for Johnson's plan that day. The U.S.S. Liberty refused to sink, even after being hit by an Israeli torpedo.

Read the book "Remember the Liberty", if you want the truth.

Unprovoked attack on America:

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[SuperCow]

When something is done on purpose, it is not a "mistake".

Papers in the Library of Lyndon Johnson suggest Johnson wanted the ship sunk so that the U.S. could blame it on Egypt and bring the U.S. into the war against Egypt. Johnson also wanted to get re-elected. When the admiral of the 6th fleet sent aircraft to help the Liberty, Johnson ordered the admiral to recall the aircraft.

One thing went wrong for Johnson's plan that day. The U.S.S. Liberty refused to sink, even after being hit by an Israeli torpedo.

Read the book "Remember the Liberty", if you want the truth.

Unprovoked attack on America:

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Again, so what? I already had a low opinion of Lynden Johnson. He gets a big plus on the civil rights movement, but for everything else he was crap. And if some Israelis and our president (probably through the Secretary of State or defense) colluded on this in their failed stunt I’m not the least bit surprised.

People say FDR provoked Japan into attacking to get us into WW2.

Most of the world rejected the Jews when Hitler wanted to deport them all in 1938. (Except apparently the Dominican Republic who would have accepted 100K of them.) It was probably a stunt by Hitler anyway just to help the propaganda war that nobody wanted them.

Practically every government has blood on their hands. That’s not what this thread is about.

 

[BABerean2]

Again, so what?

"So what", if most people in the United States have no idea the Israelis attacked the U.S.S. Liberty during the 6 Day War killing 34 of our military personal and wounding many others.

"So what"?

Ask that question of the family members of those killed, or maimed.

Ask that question of God, who demands justice for the death of innocent men.

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[SuperCow]

"So what", if most people in the United States have no idea the Israelis attacked the U.S.S. Liberty during the 6 Day War killing 34 of our military personal and wounding many others.

"So what"?

Ask that question of the family members of those killed, or maimed.

Ask that question of God, who demands justice for the death of innocent men.

So what can anyone do? All the people in charge at the time are dead. Israel apologized and paid restitution. (Not that money can bring back the dead) Maybe it was funneled back to them somehow through other diplomatic circles from the United States, but if that is true it becomes more likely someone in the U.S. had something to do with it. If you think pushing this might make it less likely to happen again, I think that boat has sailed. All this would seem to accomplish is to encourage more anti-semitic outrage.

A similar analogy is the media getting upset whenever someone called COVID-19 the China virus or the Wuhan virus, thinking it is causing anti-Chinese sentiment in the U.S. Maybe we should put the Jews in internment camps like FDR did to the Japanese immigrants in WW2.

What are you trying to accomplish? Go ahead and push it if you want to. Maybe it would encourage continued Jewish migration to Israel and make it more likely that it is in fulfillment of prophecy.

 

[BABerean2]

So what can anyone do?

The survivors of the attack have already answered your question.

They want the people of the United States to know the truth about what happened that day.

The only people who should be put in an internment camp (prison) are those who gave the orders, and as you stated all of them are probably dead.


What did Christ say below about the truth?

Luk 12:2 For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known.

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