Did God gather Israel in 1948? I think not

[2PhiloVoid]

God knew Israel would be there, but I have not yet seen Scriptural evidence that it was a result of GOD gathering them. God does gather them after they repent. He will then destroy their enemies and etc. Can anyone make a case that God already gathered them in 1948?

Some of how we interpret all of this in relation to the historic rebuilding of the nation of Israel in 1948 might also come in the fact that today's "Israel" is a mixed lot---some of them are even fellow Christians!

So, as we all carefully ponder and consider the significance of the present state of Israel, we might want to remember this. We might also want to remember that God can gather together again the nation of Israel as a sign of His sovereignty (and of His mercy) even and despite the fact that a number of non-Christian Jewish people still don't see Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah ...

I'd suggest we not be drawn to hasty generalizations either way. It's something we all need to pray about for deeper, ongoing understanding, and we need to do so without getting all politicized about it through aligning only with the purely one-sided ideological measures which a lot of folks on the outside seem to do all too easily.

 

[power1]

I don't see how any of this is relevant. Ezekiel's prophecy clearly says that the people of Israel will be gathered before they are deemed worthy. Amos concurs.

Ezekiel 36:22-23 - “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

Do what things? Not gather them together, it does not say that does it?

Amos 9:8-10 - “Surely the eyes of the Sovereign Lord are on the sinful kingdom. I will destroy it from the face of the earth. Yet I will not totally destroy the descendants of Jacob,” declares the Lord. “For I will give the command, and I will shake the people of Israel among all the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, and not a pebble will reach the ground. All the sinners among my people will die by the sword, all those who say, ‘Disaster will not overtake or meet us.’

NOTHING in there about God having gathered them there, just that they are a sinful kingdom. Of course a remnant will be saved. That has zero to do with God having supposedly already gathered them in 1948.
You have struck out.

 

[power1]

You totally misunderstood my question.

"So where [in the text of the book of Isaiah that you quoted] is the gathering?"

What would it matter? The timing is obvious.

 

[power1]

Some of how we interpret all of this in relation to the historic rebuilding of the nation of Israel in 1948 might also come in the fact that today's "Israel" is a mixed lot---some of them are even fellow Christians!

The same can be said of China. So?

So, as we all carefully ponder and consider the significance of the present state of Israel, we might want to remember this.

That is true and will be more and more true as God deals with that nation in the last several years.

We might also want to remember that God can gather together again the nation of Israel as a sign of His sovereignty (and of His mercy) even and despite the fact that a number of non-Christian Jewish people still don't see Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah ...

He could do anything. The problem is He didn't. They gathered themselves as far as I can see. They sure do not fit prophesy about when God gathers them from the nations yet.

I'd suggest we not be drawn to hasty generalizations either way. It's something we all need to pray about for deeper, ongoing understanding, and we need to do so without getting all politicized about it through aligning only with the purely one-sided ideological measures which a lot of folks on the outside seem to do all too easily.

What is there to pray about in regards to whether David (Jesus) is ruling there today and has destroyed all their enemies and etc etc? Not even an issue. They are in abject unbelief.

 

[SuperCow]

What would it matter? The timing is obvious.

How is it obvious? That chapter of Isaiah doesn't even mention a gathering of Israel. Yes, it's obvious that the timeline is post-Armaggedon, which is why your reference in the first place to chapter 66 is irrelevant.

If you're looking for a reference to Israel's regathering in Isaiah, that is in chapter 11.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The same can be said of China. So?

Can it be said the same? I don't think so. China isn't the 'peculiar historical people' that God specifically and definitively gave His Law to, a Law by which the people of Israel would either be Blessed or Cursed beyond measure depending on how they historically responded to all that God would reveal and direct them by.

So, my apologies if it sounds like hand-waiving, but I don't think China is analogous for comparison in this instance. Maybe it is analogous in other instances or in connection to other spiritual specifics regarding the Christian faith, but not likely where identity with the Old Testament is concerned.

That is true and will be more and more true as God deals with that nation in the last several years.

He could do anything. The problem is He didn't. They gathered themselves as far as I can see. They sure do not fit prophesy about when God gathers them from the nations yet.

Actually, the pattern we can see in regard to how God would handle the spiritually flailing people of Israel is mentioned in both Leviticus and Deuteronomy, so the structure and force of 'how' God said He'd handle the people of Israel seems to still fit within the pattern of events we find in history, especially with all of the terrible events leading up to and through both World War 1 and 2. It seems fitting to me to explain it this way, but I won't be dogmatic about it. I just recognize the pattern that's there in recent history and that it seems to reflect what we find in Scripture.

What is there to pray about in regards to whether David (Jesus) is ruling there today and has destroyed all their enemies and etc etc? Not even an issue. They are in abject unbelief.

Are they? Are there not at least some Jewish Christians living in Israel even today? There are.

So, I think 'abject' is a bit too stretching and can't be used as an umbrella qualifier to stereotype Jewish people in Israel; it's more like a predominant number of Jewish people are in a state of existential questioning, many are in fact atheists rather than being even O.T. style religious observers or believers who reject Jesus in order to adhere to Moses.

 

[SuperCow]

Do what things? Not gather them together, it does not say that does it?

NOTHING in there about God having gathered them there, just that they are a sinful kingdom. Of course a remnant will be saved. That has zero to do with God having supposedly already gathered them in 1948.
You have struck out.

Because gathering them together occurs immediately after that in both books. So these quotes refer to the state of Israel when they are gathered. The gathering occurs in the scriptures that I referenced in the immediately preceding post that you apparently didn't read, since you ignored them. If Israel is gathered after they are cleansed, then these scriptures make no sense.

And I never said the gathering happened in 1948. I said that is likely the beginning of a long process of gathering. (Or maybe the beginning could stretch back to the 19th century when the Zionist movement was born.)

 

[power1]

How is it obvious? That chapter of Isaiah doesn't even mention a gathering of Israel. Yes, it's obvious that the timeline is post-Armaggedon, which is why your reference in the first place to chapter 66 is irrelevant.

If you're looking for a reference to Israel's regathering in Isaiah, that is in chapter 11.

Maybe we are arguing the same thing? Of course Israel gets saved at the end of the Trib. Why, when did you think Armageddon was?

 

[BABerean2]

I don't see how any of this is relevant. Ezekiel's prophecy clearly says that the people of Israel will be gathered before they are deemed worthy. Amos concurs.

Ezekiel 36:22-23 - “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,declares the Sovereign Lord, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

Amos 9:8-10 - “Surely the eyes of the Sovereign Lord are on the sinful kingdom. I will destroy it from the face of the earth. Yet I will not totally destroy the descendants of Jacob,” declares the Lord. “For I will give the command, and I will shake the people of Israel among all the nations as grain is shaken in a sieve, and not a pebble will reach the ground. All the sinners among my people will die by the sword, all those who say, ‘Disaster will not overtake or meet us.’

Which of the two Israels in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5 are you talking about?

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in the passage below.
On that day about 3,000 Israelites came to faith in Christ. The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several days later.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in the passage below.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Based on these passages, faithful Israel cannot be separated from the Church of Jesus Christ.

.

 

[power1]

Can it be said the same? I don't think so. China isn't the 'peculiar historical people' that God specifically and definitively gave His Law to, a Law by which the people of Israel would either be Blessed or Cursed beyond measure depending on how they historically responded to all that God would reveal and direct them by.

So, my apologies if it sounds like hand-waiving, but I don't think China is analogous for comparison in this instance. Maybe it is analogous in other instances or in connection to other spiritual specifics regarding the Christian faith, but not likely where identity with the Old Testament is concerned.

There is nothing more special about the nation of Israel today than there is about China. I hear there could be hundreds of millions of believers in China secretly. That is pretty special. Now Israel is special also, as are we all. They have promises made to them that will be fulfilled one day. The issue in the thread is not whether God will restore them one day. He will restore all the believers there. The topic here is whether the self gathering of Israel (unrepentant) is a result of the promises about How the desert will one day bloom like a rose, and God will comfort and bring the people back to the land etc.

Actually, the pattern we can see in regard to how God would handle the spiritually flailing people of Israel is mentioned in both Leviticus and Deuteronomy, so the structure and force of 'how' God said He'd handle the people of Israel seems to still fit within the pattern of events we find in history, especially with all of the terrible events leading up to and through both World War 1 and 2. It seems fitting to me to explain it this way, but I won't be dogmatic about it. I just recognize the pattern that's there in recent history and that it seems to reflect what we find in Scripture.

The only issue is whether God Himself specifically gathered Israel in 1948 and whether that was the fulfillment of prophesy or not. Have you a verse that says God will gather them Himself to Israel in the last day? (not a verse that they will be there, but that it is God gathering them)

Are they? Are there not at least some Jewish Christians living in Israel even today? There are.

Yes, something like 2%. So? That does not mean they are a Christian or godly nation.

So, I think 'abject' is a bit too stretching and can't be used as an umbrella qualifier to stereotype Jewish people in Israel; it's more like a predominant number of Jewish people are in a state of existential questioning, many are in fact atheists rather than being even O.T. style religious observers or believers who reject Jesus in order to adhere to Moses.

In other words the country as a whole is absolutely not Christian or accepting God and His word.

 

[power1]

Because gathering them together occurs immediately after that in both books. So these quotes refer to the state of Israel when they are gathered. The gathering occurs in the scriptures that I referenced in the immediately preceding post that you apparently didn't read, since you ignored them. If Israel is gathered after they are cleansed, then these scriptures make no sense.

And I never said the gathering happened in 1948. I said that is likely the beginning of a long process of gathering. (Or maybe the beginning could stretch back to the 19th century when the Zionist movement was born.)

Just to be clear, what scriptures make no sense unless GOD gathers them in 1948?

 

[power1]

edit: I see that I responed to a post I thought was about something else. Oh well...

Which of the two Israels in Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5 are you talking about?

If you are talking about the remnant, that is the ones who accept Jesus and are saved. All Israel in the end will do that. Not all of the current population, since most will be killed prophesy says. Only the remnant is the Israel that will come on over to everlasting life and to see the promises made to the prophets fulfilled.

On the Day of Pentecost Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel" in the passage below.
On that day about 3,000 Israelites came to faith in Christ. The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several days later.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Yes and that house consisted of people that were not saved or believers for the most part.

Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

The untoward generation was not saved. They needed to believe in Jesus so they could be saved from that generation and their fate.

James addressed his letter to "the twelve tribes", who were his "brethren" in the "faith" in the passage below.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Only the believers in the tribes were his brothers. They had faith as the verse says. Yet the tribes still existed as did the nation.

Based on these passages, faithful Israel cannot be separated from the Church of Jesus Christ.

.

Great, so when all Israel is saved in the end, they will no longer be separated. Anything else?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There is nothing more special about the nation of Israel today than there is about China.

I didn't say there was something 'more special' today about Israel in their spiritual significance than any other other nation. I simply made the modest claim that the pattern in recent history seems to reflect the pattern we find in Scripture in regard to how God says that He would handle a spiritually flailing Israel.

I hear there could be hundreds of millions of believers in China secretly. That is pretty special. Now Israel is special also, as are we all. They have promises made to them that will be fulfilled one day. The issue in the thread is not whether God will restore them one day. He will restore all the believers there. The topic here is whether the self gathering of Israel (unrepentant) is a result of the promises about How the desert will one day bloom like a rose, and God will comfort and bring the people back to the land etc.

Sure. I can understand how you might have a question about that. But, I'm going to have to stop you right there and cite that I personally DON'T subscribe to, let alone purely adhere to, any particular Eschatological or Prophetic view. So, I can't be pinned in and criticized from the get go by being cited as somehow falsely holding this or that eschatological view about Israel in relation to history and prophecy. I've read too much and studied too much to do so.

The only issue is whether God Himself specifically gathered Israel in 1948 and whether that was the fulfillment of prophesy or not.

And I'm saying that we can't know for SURE either way, and that it's more or less BEST to keep it open that it could be, especially with the patterns be find in Scripture.

Have you a verse that says God will gather them Himself to Israel in the last day? (not a verse that they will be there, but that it is God gathering them)

You're asking me a question that is laced with an attempt to discern where I stand. The truth is, I have a lot of verses ... but whether or not they all point decisively to whether or not God has had His hand in bringing Israel together in the 20th century is a Rorschach Test for all of us to ponder over.

Yes, something like 2%. So? That does not mean they are a Christian or godly nation.

No, but like Sodom and Gomorrah, it might not be unlike the Lord to either 'spare' Israel further judgement or to offer mercy upon them all after the Holocaust on the facts that (1) ~2% of the population of Israel today is Christian, and (2) God may have finally had His fill of the nations of the world making a farce out of His already founded judgment upon His own people.

But you wanted verses. Maybe one verse would be Leviticus 26:44; maybe another would be Deuteronomy 4:30-31, and although I won't stake my life on it, I also won't ignore it either.

In other words the country as a whole is absolutely not Christian or accepting God and His word.

No, no! You don't get to simply "define and abrogate" the significance of some small percentage of Jewish Christians who are a part of the temporal nation of Israel. You don't know that in total terms, just as I don't 'know' that Israel is indeed a providential manifestation of God in the present times.

So, maybe we just call a truce here on this, bro?

 

[power1]

Sure. I can understand how you might have a question about that. But, I'm going to have to stop you right there and cite that I personally DON'T subscribe to, let alone purely adhere to, any particular Eschatological or Prophetic view. So, I can't be pinned in and criticized from the get go by being cited as somehow falsely holding this or that eschatological view about Israel in relation to history and prophecy. I've read too much and studied too much to do so.

You are on neither side of the fence on the issue then.

And I'm saying that we can't know for SURE either way, and that it's more or less BEST to keep it open that it could be, especially with the patterns be find in Scripture.

When God gathers the remnant back to the land we will know for sure. All enemies will have been destroyed. Jesus will be there ruling and have returned to earth. Etc. It is best to not wave away what we do know.

You're asking me a question that is laced with an attempt to discern where I stand. The truth is, I have a lot of verses ... but whether or not they all point decisively to whether or not God has had His had in bringing Israel together in the 20th century is a Rorschach Test for all of us to ponder over.

No. It just happens to be the topic.

No, but like Sodom and Gomorrah, it might not be unlike the Lord to either 'spare' Israel further judgement or to offer mercy upon them all after the Holocaust on the facts that (1) ~2% of the population of Israel today is Christian, and (2) God may have finally had His fill of the nations of the world making a farce out of His already founded judgment upon His own people.

Well, the time of Jacob's trouble is going to be when it will be.

But you wanted verses. Maybe one verse would be Leviticus 26:44; maybe another would be Deuteronomy 4:30-31, and although I won't stake my life on it, I also won't ignore it either.

Leviticus 26:44
And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.
That means basically that a remnant will be saved when we apply that to the end time.

Deut 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
So here God says things will come upon them in the latter time. Yes they will. Nothing to do with whether He brought them to the land then.

No, no! You don't get to simply "define and abrogate" the significance of some small percentage of Jewish Christians who are a part of the temporal nation of Israel. You don't know that in total terms, just as I don't 'know' that Israel is indeed a providential manifestation of God in the present times.

The exact number does not matter. The nation is in unbelief. Any small percentage would be part of the remnant, and not the ones ruling.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You are on neither side of the fence on the issue then.

Correct. I am not. I'm a mere subjective observer who doesn't take a specific nor comprehensive position on Biblical Eschatology. I'm more of an ongoing explorer who might be identified as a kind of Premillenialist 'lite,' taking a few cues from Partial Preterists, Historicists and some even a few Dispensationalists.

When God gathers the remnant back to the land we will know for sure. All enemies will have been destroyed. Jesus will be there ruling and have returned to earth. Etc. It is best to not wave away what we do know.

Maybe this is the case, but that's assuming biblical prophecy is to be ultimately pinned in that way (and I'm not sure that it should be from what I've read).

No. It just happens to be the topic.

Ok. Fine. It's your thread.

Well, the time of Jacob's trouble is going to be when it will be.

....mmmm. well.

Leviticus 26:44
And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.
That means basically that a remnant will be saved when we apply that to the end time.

Yeah. I understand what you're saying, and this isn't to therefore say that there isn't some kind of divinely planned testing on the way. ... I'm not going to smile, though, if or when there is. Instead, I'd probably cry.

Deut 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;

31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
So here God says things will come upon them in the latter time. Yes they will. Nothing to do with whether He brought them to the land then.

That depends upon how other passages in the Scriptures such as Jeremiah 23 express future acts of God that only God knows how, when, where and why. But somehow, Christians of all sorts seem to 'know' exactly things that haven't been exactly revealed.

What I'm pretty sure about is that none of us really knows exactly, but we often like to talk like we do.

The exact number does not matter. The nation is in unbelief. Any small percentage would be part of the remnant, and not the ones ruling.

Yeah. So, all of this could mean something else as well, but I'm not going to get into all of that... since we don't know for sure.

 

[power1]

Correct. I am not. I'm a mere subjective observer who doesn't take a specific nor comprehensive position on Biblical Eschatology. I'm more of an ongoing explorer who might be identified as a kind of Premillenialist 'lite,' taking a few cues from Partial Preterists, Historicists and some even a few Dispensationalists.

Maybe this is the case, but that's assuming biblical prophecy is to be ultimately pinned in that way (and I'm not sure that it should be from what I've read).

Ok. Fine. It's your thread.

....mmmm. well.


Yeah. I understand what you're saying, and this isn't to therefore say that there isn't some kind of divinely planned testing on the way. ... I'm not going to smile, though, if or when there is. Instead, I'd probably cry.

That depends upon how other passages in the Scriptures such as Jeremiah 23 express future acts of God that only God knows how, when, where and why. But somehow, Christians of all sorts seem to 'know' exactly things that haven't been exactly revealed.

What I'm pretty sure about is that none of us really knows exactly, but we often like to talk like we do.


Yeah. So, all of this could mean something else as well, but I'm not going to get into all of that... since we don't know for sure.

You are welcome to be vague and uncommitted. I don't think pretending that Israel will not one day be saved and restored is a valid position, in case that is what you are thinking. Nor is it appropriate to wave off the huge amount of end time prophesy as if it might be some hard to understand or accept sort of thing. After all this I am still not sure what your point was or if you even had one.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You are welcome to be vague and uncommitted. I don't think pretending that Israel will not one day be saved and restored is a valid position, in case that is what you are thinking. Nor is it appropriate to wave off the huge amount of end time prophesy as if it might be some hard to understand or accept sort of thing. After all this I am still not sure what your point was or if you even had one.

My point is that the international orchestration of Israel into a new, modern nation might be (might be?) a sign to the world. But whether that 'sign' is a positive one or a negative one remains to be seen.

By the way, I'm not handwaiving things off. It's simply that like you, I've read my share of books and have come to my own conclusions or evaluations and therefore have my own thoughs on prophetic matters.

That's all.

 

[SuperCow]

Maybe we are arguing the same thing? Of course Israel gets saved at the end of the Trib. Why, when did you think Armageddon was?

Let me start by recalling that in my very first post on this thread, I said that Isaiah 66 was not a good example of support for a modern regathering of Israel. Isaiah 66 (and several chapters before this) are clearly end times and post end times prophecies.

I think my principle disagreement lies in the order of events for gathering. I do not think the gathering has completed in Israel. I think that more than likely it has simply begun, and has been going on for the past hundred years or so. To gather the righteous, some unrighteousness will naturally be mixed in. (It has always been that way in Israel back to the Exodus, and the unrighteousness are filtered out in many different scenarios.)

When the gathering is completed (and I cannot say when that will be), that is more than likely when the end times/tribulation will begin, though maybe there is some overlap.

 

[power1]

My point is that the international orchestration of Israel into a new, modern nation might be (might be?) a sign to the world. But whether that 'sign' is a positive one or a negative one remains to be seen.

It is a sign that the prophesies are true and that the final events written will happen and are on their way to happening.

By the way, I'm not handwaiving things off. It's simply that like you, I've read my share of books and have come to my own conclusions or evaluations and therefore have my own thoughs on prophetic matters.

That's all.

OK so I guess we won't mark you down as a yes or know when it comes to the question of the thread.

 

[power1]

Let me start by recalling that in my very first post on this thread, I said that Isaiah 66 was not a good example of support for a modern regathering of Israel. Isaiah 66 (and several chapters before this) are clearly end times and post end times prophecies.

So far, so good.

I think my principle disagreement lies in the order of events for gathering. I do not think the gathering has completed in Israel. I think that more than likely it has simply begun, and has been going on for the past hundred years or so. To gather the righteous, some unrighteousness will naturally be mixed in. (It has always been that way in Israel back to the Exodus, and the unrighteousness are filtered out in many different scenarios.)

That is where we do not agree. I do not think God has started to gather the remnant who repented yet. (since they have not yet been saved- and most will not be saved but killed). I see no reason to call the Jewish people gathering themselves in this end time a regathering of God and by God, or for God, or with God.

When the gathering is completed (and I cannot say when that will be), that is more than likely when the end times/tribulation will begin, though maybe there is some overlap.

That will likely never happen. If anyone thinks we need to wait for every Jew to move to Israel before the Tribulation, I suggest they have another think coming. A more concise indicator might be that the coalition slated to invade the nation is already mostly in place.