Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

That doesn't surprise me in the least. Although I did.

No and I asked for clarification. The only possible answer, which I suggested, is that one admits to having been a sinner in the past, has been reconciled to God for those sins meaning now one is in what Catholics would call a state of Grace with Him and remains in that state now because there have been zero sins since the reconciliation with God. That is fine but you never clarified your claim to state it that clearly (whether you would use that wording or not does not matter).

I believe (what the Church teaches) that we can right now, just like He said we can, be Holy as He is Holy. Which means we are reconciled perfectly with God. I believe most us do not remain that way for very long because our nature works against us remaining that way. A simple thought can work against us remaining that way, never mind acting on that thought. Don't know you and have never met anyone claiming to have remained in a Holy state - without sinning. But I myself believe (what the Church teaches) that with God's Grace all things are possible - and that Grace allowed the Mother of God to live out Her whole life here that way. The Pope himself is a sinner and am sure would tell us both so if he were to be asked. Am certain he goes to confession, which would not be needed if he did not sin. Am also certain that his sins would be nothing like mine, but would have the same roots as mine - just as Adam's did - self pride.

But you are entitled to make the claim of retaining Holiness since last reconciled and if actually true am very happy for you. I happen to also believe (as the Church teaches) that people have indeed lived that way, again with God's Grace helping them to do so. So there is nothing opposed to someone right now living that way. God bless you and them. Those examples from Scripture also were allowed to bypass death, given an exception from God because of their Holiness. The tradition is actually that Mary was treated the same at the end of Her Blessed life - it is a fitting belief for His Mother.

However, the rest of us must deal with the reality of our life and our continued sinning. And I would also think the proper attitude of someone like a Mary or Elijah or whoever is in a state of Holiness would not be that they will not sin (which is what Saint Peter claimed only hours before doing the worst thing he could have done) but that they currently lack the desire to. The danger of falsely believing one cannot sin is the same danger Saint Peter faced the next morning - despair. The same despair that led another disciple to take his life. It is a big fall from thinking one incapable to realizing how very wrong one was about reality.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If you understand any scripture to depict God as "Big Bird", then you most definitely should not read scripture.
And you have no understanding what wings means, or under the shadow of the Almighty means.

We have tried to discuss scripture with you, and you out right deny what they say, and quote from your "Fathers" which most of us don't' read because we are warned in the ch. you just posted, Mat. 23 Not to call any man on earth father and have not many teachers either. You are a living example of why He said that.

I never said I believe Scripture, Matt 23 actually, says God can be seen on Sesame Street. I said that it could be literally taken that way, because it literally compares Him to a mother hen. The point is saying Scripture literally says something and claiming a particular meaning from that literal expression are not the same thing. So while it is true Matthew compares God to a mother hen, it is not true that God looks like Big Bird. Some times words do literally mean what it says, but that is not always the case.

The same thing applies to what is meant by "become one of us" in the story of the Fall of Man. There is absolutely no way to look at that and logically say oh yeah, man had to sin (turn away from Good) in order to become more like Good. That makes no sense. We cannot move toward Good by turning away from it. Saying those words have to be understood differently does not deny what it literally says, it just changes what we are meant to understand from that expression.

If I say my jaw fell on the floor, I am probably not expressing the literal meaning of those words as I am not a freak character in a James Bond movie(Skyfall). Same thing. Who is "us" in that verse in Genesis - the Trinity - God. What is God? He is Good. How do me measure what is Good? By looking to Him, Who is Good. What is sin? Turning away from Good. Why/how do we turn away from Good? We wrongly convince ourselves that we, not God, are the measure of "goodness" for our self. That measure belongs only to God as He alone is Good. So by sinning, we are putting our self in His Place - usurping what is truly and only His Role. He is alone is Good, not us. So by sinning we make our self our own god - we decide what is "good" for us. In our foolish self pride, we "become" like God for our self - saying my will not Thy Will for me.

That is what "become like one of us" means and also why He mercifully had to banish them from His Garden. Also why it was merciful for them not to have to live eternally in that state, so He blocked access to what formerly gave them that capability.

 

[2KnowHim]

The danger of falsely believing one cannot sin is the same danger Saint Peter faced the next morning - despair. The same despair that led another disciple to take his life. It is a big fall from thinking one incapable to realizing how very wrong one was about reality.

Not if you believe in what Christ has done for you, in you, and through you.
To still have a conscience towards sin is to be under Law, not Grace. Because only The Law condemns a man of sin.

The old plan was only a hint of the good things in the new plan. Since that old "law plan" wasn't complete in itself, it couldn't complete those who followed it. No matter how many sacrifices were offered year after year, they never added up to a complete solution. If they had, the worshipers would have gone merrily on their way, no longer dragged down by their sins. But instead of removing awareness of sin, when those animal sacrifices were repeated over and over they actually heightened awareness and guilt.

This is what continues to happen when you have a sin conscience, or repentance over and over, and in your case confession, it heightens your awareness of sin and your quilt, and denies what The Lord of Glory has done for you.
There is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So what are you repenting for? the dead crucified flesh that you carry around? Jesus Condemned Sin in the flesh, don't you know this?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Not if you believe in what Christ has done for you, in you, and through you.
To still have a conscience towards sin is to be under Law, not Grace. Because only The Law condemns a man of sin.

The old plan was only a hint of the good things in the new plan. Since that old "law plan" wasn't complete in itself, it couldn't complete those who followed it. No matter how many sacrifices were offered year after year, they never added up to a complete solution. If they had, the worshipers would have gone merrily on their way, no longer dragged down by their sins. But instead of removing awareness of sin, when those animal sacrifices were repeated over and over they actually heightened awareness and guilt.

This is what continues to happen when you have a sin conscience, or repentance over and over, and in your case confession, it heightens your awareness of sin and your quilt, and denies what The Lord of Glory has done for you.
There is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. So what are you repenting for? the dead crucified flesh that you carry around? Jesus Condemned Sin in the flesh, don't you know this?

I confess and repent just as Saint John encourage his "beloved" to do because I recognize I still sin. Rather than feeling defeated it is uplifting and it should be. I agree many come to see it differently and so people speak of "Catholic guilt" but that is not the way it makes me feel - in fact quite the opposite as it should. It is only if I despair in my inability to stop that my "guilt" would become an issue. We should not despair, because just like He was there for Saint Peter after that denial before men, I know He is there for us no matter how little or how much we mess up.

We certainly should not be living like it does not matter - which is why Saint John admonishes CHRISTIANS to concern themselves with there being a difference between some sins and others - he calls "mortal sins". That whole discussion was with Christians, not non-believers. So a so called "white lie" is or could be viewed very differently than taking the life of another for an extreme example. Neither would be "ok" with God but one is a much more (complete and) serious of a turn away from Him than the other.

 

[Meowzltov]

I don't think you know what you are quoting here. First of all this was before the Cross and concerning Israel, the number being 490 ...."yrs." that Israel was without The Word from The Lord through The Prophets. Secondly....He was speaking of God turning his face against Israel till His Son Came.

No, it had nothing to do with any of that. Jesus was asked how many times we should FORGIVE. Jesus answered "Seventy times seven," meaning unlimited.

 

[Meowzltov]

Speak for yourself

I don't believe you don't covet, lie, and lust.

 

[Meowzltov]

So tell me, how many times have you crucified The Son of God a fresh then by repenting, and put Him to an open shame?
How many times, have you not believed that His Sacrifice Once for All was enough for you? Ever time you come back to Him in Repentance that's how many times you have, according to scripture that is. Heb.

I have sinned against God many times, and had to confess once again and come again to repentence.

Since becoming a Christian, I have always believed that his once and for all sacrifice was enough. The two ideas are not contradictory, you are incorrect in this matter.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I don't believe you don't covet, lie, and lust.

I would be a little more charitable here as it is not like it has never occurred before. Don't know her and she has made the claim. That she admitted to having once been a sinner makes me feel a little better. I do feel that just like Saint Peter's zeal that night, some folks set themselves up for a great fall when they one day find themselves doing something they thought they would never do. And I too would remain skeptical of someone making such a claim to me personally face to face, and if I knew them well enough would ask if they really considered that even their thoughts could be sinful, regardless whether they acted on it or not. None the less, to remain fully in a state of Grace, to be Holy as He is Holy should be our desire and we know that it can be done, but it seems very rare or else we would have more folks recorded as being assumed into Heaven.

I think some folks do not look at some things as being sins when those things actually are - that is part of our fallen nature which even Baptism cannot restore. Many typically ignore the things we think in our heads which Jesus clearly called a sin just as much as carrying out the thought.

 

[2KnowHim]

If you have been crucified with Christ then it is no longer you who live, but Christ in you, and Christ does not sin.
Being born again, you now have a new nature, no longer a slave to sin.
If you be dead with Christ, then how can a dead man sin? Especially if it is Christ who lives and not you anymore.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:11 From now on, think of it this way: Sin speaks a dead language that means nothing to you; God speaks your mother tongue, and you hang on every word. You are dead to sin and alive to God. That's what Jesus did.
Rom 6:11 In the same way you are to think of yourselves as dead, so far as sin is concerned, but living in fellowship with God through Christ Jesus.

 

[2KnowHim]

No, it had nothing to do with any of that. Jesus was asked how many times we should FORGIVE. Jesus answered "Seventy times seven," meaning unlimited.

Really?....
Luk_23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

 

[2KnowHim]

I don't believe you don't covet, lie, and lust.

That is your prerogative, But I am not the one claiming to have sinned many times since becoming a Christian, you are.
Who has beguiled you? Did you not start out in the Spirit? And are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Rom 6:1 So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving?
Rom 6:2 I should hope not! If we've left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If you have been crucified with Christ then it is no longer you who live, but Christ in you, and Christ does not sin.
Being born again, you now have a new nature, no longer a slave to sin.
If you be dead with Christ, then how can a dead man sin? Especially if it is Christ who lives and not you anymore.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:11 From now on, think of it this way: Sin speaks a dead language that means nothing to you; God speaks your mother tongue, and you hang on every word. You are dead to sin and alive to God. That's what Jesus did.
Rom 6:11 In the same way you are to think of yourselves as dead, so far as sin is concerned, but living in fellowship with God through Christ Jesus.

The teaching is one cannot serve two masters, either/or not both at same time. It does not mean we are incapable of turning away from Good, just as Saint Peter did that night. When we sin something dies, including the relationship we have with God. The degree to which it dies is relative to the degree we have turned away. Obviously Saint Peter's turn was total and that earned him being "denied before God" but that was not the end of his life. So just as obviously Jesus could and did forgive Saint Peter after he had sinned, even after sinning the most gravest degree of sin. And no, there is no way I am going to ever believe a person following Jesus is not a Christian, at least not in the way Saint Peter was doing before his denial of Him. And this view of our reality is consistent with the Apostle of Love's admonishment to Christians to confess their sins and avoid at all costs mortal sins (like what Saint Peter did not avoid that night).

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That is your prerogative, But I am not the one claiming to have sinned many times since becoming a Christian, you are.
Who has beguiled you? Did you not start out in the Spirit? And are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Rom 6:1 So what do we do? Keep on sinning so God can keep on forgiving?
Rom 6:2 I should hope not! If we've left the country where sin is sovereign, how can we still live in our old house there?

Am I saved? Yes, yes and yes.
Yes(1), Because He died to save us all I was actually "saved" from all my prior sins when I was first Baptized as a Southern Baptism. For good measure I did that again while still Protesting, but a second Baptism would have no effect. And because I had already at least one valid Baptism the Church had no need of repeating that when I stopped protesting and joined myself with it. Yes(2) I am being saved every time I confess the sins not already forgiven for which I otherwise would be "lost" should I perish in that state. Yes(3) I have the hope He gave us all and with His Grace to persevere in my walk to be saved when I depart this life.

 

[2KnowHim]

The teaching is one cannot serve two masters, either/or not both at same time. It does not mean we are incapable of turning away from Good, just as Saint Peter did that night. When we sin something dies, including the relationship we have with God. The degree to which it dies is relative to the degree we have turned away. Obviously Saint Peter's turn was total and that earned him being "denied before God" but that was not the end of his life. So just as obviously Jesus could and did forgive Saint Peter after he had sinned, even after sinning the most gravest degree of sin. And no, there is no way I am going to ever believe a person following Jesus is not a Christian, at least not in the way Saint Peter was doing before his denial of Him. And this view of our reality is consistent with the Apostle of Love's admonishment to Christians to confess their sins and avoid at all costs mortal sins (like what Saint Peter did not avoid that night).

Again you keep referring to Peter's denial...but that was before he was converted, the scriptures are plain with anyone who reads them. Peter did not have The Spirit of Christ "to keep him", he believed in Jesus, but that belief was limited, and when Jesus was taken away from him he was sifted, that was revealed. Peter could do Nothing without Him.

 

[2KnowHim]

Am I saved? Yes, yes and yes.
Yes(1), Because He died to save us all I was actually "saved" from all my prior sins when I was first Baptized as a Southern Baptism. For good measure I did that again while still Protesting, but a second Baptism would have no effect. And because I had already at least one valid Baptism the Church had no need of repeating that when I stopped protesting and joined myself with it. Yes(2) I am being saved every time I confess the sins not already forgiven for which I otherwise would be "lost" should I perish in that state. Yes(3) I have the hope He gave us all and with His Grace to persevere in my walk to be saved when I depart this life.

Since I don't know everything about your Religion, I would like to ask you a question about your confessing your sins.
When you have a bad thought or sin as you call it, do you ask for forgiveness right then and there or do you have to wait till you can go to confession? And who do you confess your sins to? Your Priest, or directly to God, or To God through your Priest?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Again you keep referring to Peter's denial...but that was before he was converted, the scriptures are plain with anyone who reads them. Peter did not have The Spirit of Christ "to keep him", he believed in Jesus, but that belief was limited, and when Jesus was taken away from him he was sifted, that was revealed. Peter could do Nothing without Him.

Again I wont debate that with you as to me the position is unsupportable. God Himself was followed by these men for three years. I see nothing in the depiction of Saint Peter following Christ during that time as having insufficient faith for him to be considered to be saved. Recall the last part of the answer to the question of "what must I do to be saved"?
Saint Peter and most of the other disciples - except in abandoning Him that faithful night are doing what He said they needed to do to be "saved". Saint Peter was doing nothing for three years. He was following Jesus, which is what we are suppose to be doing. Saint Peter's stumble that night is demonstrating for us that even if we fail in the worse possible way, God can still clean us up again. It is not demonstrating that Saint Peter was not "saved" before that point.

Those men for three years had a relationship with God that had not been so completely possible on this earth since Adam "walked with God" in the cool of the evenings in the Garden. A relationship we can only hope to see in the next life. So no, I cannot agree that Saint Peter was not "saved" before he denied Jesus before men - making himself in need of being "saved" for having done that.

Adding - BTW the call to "come follow me" did not change after His Death. And that same call is what the Apostles responded to when He first them.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Since I don't know everything about your Religion, I would like to ask you a question about your confessing your sins.
When you have a bad thought or sin as you call it, do you ask for forgiveness right then and there or do you have to wait till you can go to confession? And who do you confess your sins to? Your Priest, or directly to God, or To God through your Priest?

We ask for forgiveness all the time - right then would be best but we do not always do are best do we?

We confess our sins to God. The Priest is what makes God's presence very physically real for us as in God present through a real person, just like the Church itself establishes a very real presence, His Kingdom on earth. God gave the authority to forgive sins to men while He walked here. He did not do that as a temporary special measure for those people who directly benefited from having their sins forgiven by one of those men. That Authority was passed on and down to the Priest we have today. The Authority used by those men came from God - so even though it is a man doing administering His Grace upon someone else it is still properly God forgiving those sins confessed.

 

[2KnowHim]

Your best will never do, it is all about His Best, and that He did when He gave His Life for us and to us.
What if you die and you have an un-confessed sin, does that mean to you that you won't make it to Heaven?
And why do you have a man for a Priest, when Jesus Christ is our High Priest? I don't understand that at all.
It's like saying He's not good enough for you, you have to have someone else?

 

[2KnowHim]

Boy! what a way to live, to have to be conscience of sin all the time. You are not free my friend, not if this is what you are always aware of. Sounds like to me He didn't die to take away your sins, He still leaves it up to you.
I can't imagine living like that. That would be horrible, and especially the consequences it holds if I slip up and miss a sin here or there. That is not at all what Christ had in mind for you.

 

[2KnowHim]

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;