Did God create evil?

[DrBubbaLove]

What I believe everyone is missing here is motive, meaning: why something was created. When you only look at an end result you miss the beginning, what I mean by that is evil, like a stick of dynamite has the potential for good, to create smooth roads through mountains, but it becomes evil when it is used to kill.

God's original intention for the creation of evil was so we could understand what is good, if evil remains as just knowledge, dead of any life or power, it only serves as a light of knowledge to understand what is good and that which is good is God,

In short, the only way we could/can/ever will understand God is also to understand evil, having something to compare it to. But He and we only give life and power to the light (knowledge) of good not to the light(knowledge) of evil

I never imagined motive to be an issue because then we are talking about justification for an action already committed, where the choice of perhaps a lessor of two evils - take a life to save another for example - could be justified by examining motive. In that case we could talk about after the fact that evil can be used/done for the greater Good. In the same way we can talk about God ALLOWING evil to exist for the greater Good - and in His case - it must ALWAYS be so regardless if we recognize or could even know/see what that greater Good is. In my mind we can never get to logically talking about motive in these discussion because we cannot logically get to saying "God creates evil" in order to then talk about why we think He would do so.

Talking about motive is different from suggesting a Will that has a singular focused can be turned aside to move God to act against Himself - which we would have to be doing in order to claim He creates evil. And it would be that turning aside of His Will which is only focused on the Good to which all Christians in good Faith must object to. That discussion is very different from asking what could be God's motive for allowing something He could clearly stop - evil for example or the suffering it causes.

BTW we could not speak in terms of God's "original" intention unless we deny He both knew evil is a possibility when creating creatures free to commit evil (an absurd position since even we can figure that much out) and also deny that He knew the future; meaning He knew when He made that choice to create such creatures that some would rebel, including who, what, when, how, how often and how badly (which includes the actions of all of us here). So He both knew all that and chose to do it anyway (for His Glory and the greater Good). Most of us do not believe God so ignorant and certainly not more ignorant than us and that such would not fit with any concept of Perfect Knowledge. Which means a denial of Perfect Knowledge is sort of required to some degree if one is going to claim He lacked before creation or lacks now any or all such knowledge.

 

[ewq1938]

It is indeed a fact that some English translations render the verse "creates evil".

Translations are irrelevant. The Hebrew manuscripts say "creates evil".


Some, including myself suggest it is not the best rendering, which is rather obvious when posters like the one above use it to support a distorted view of God and what it would mean to say God is Good.

*** but that position ignores what the Hebrew says in favor of something new God did not write/inspire to be written. That is why your belief about this verse cannot nor will ever be correct. The manuscripts cannot be changed or argued against.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Translations are irrelevant. The Hebrew manuscripts say "creates evil".


Some, including myself suggest it is not the best rendering, which is rather obvious when posters like the one above use it to support a distorted view of God and what it would mean to say God is Good.

*** but that position ignores what the Hebrew says in favor of something new God did not write/inspire to be written. That is why your belief about this verse cannot nor will ever be correct. The manuscripts cannot be changed or argued against.

Again, this post reflects the dishonesty already admitted to earlier about the motive behind taking the position taken rather than a real interest is discussing all the possible meanings behind what it could mean to say "God creates evil" or seek to understand why we say a blind faith that such a verse can only mean it is literally true Good can make evil is illogical. What is being ignored here is what everyone else is saying in favor of an intense desire to object to anything the Church teaches.

 

[jugghead]

again, you miss the hidden agenda of God in bringing people together.

By asking the question "Did He create evil?" will always and I mean always bring about a debate, a difference in opinion, whereas when the question is asked "Why did He create evil?" even those with different opinions (on the did He) can come together as one to discuss "why He does things" rather than "did He do things" and both can profit from the discussion rather than neither.

"Did He?" does not increase a relationship with Him, just a debate between men occurs, but trying to understand "Why He?" by both parties brings both closer to Him. His Spirit searches the depth of the Father when His Spirit leads us to ask "Why?"

The question "Why" puts the focus on Him rather than on each other with "did"

And if you do not believe that to be true, then I don't know what else to say

 

[DrBubbaLove]

again, you miss the hidden agenda of God in bringing people together.

By asking the question "Did He create evil?" will always and I mean always bring about a debate, a difference in opinion, whereas when the question is asked "Why did He create evil?" even those with different opinions (on the did He) can come together as one to discuss "why He does things" rather than "did He do things" and both can profit from the discussion rather than neither.

"Did He?" does not increase a relationship with Him, just a debate between men occurs, but trying to understand "Why He?" by both parties brings both closer to Him. His Spirit searches the depth of the Father when His Spirit leads us to ask "Why?"

The question "Why" puts the focus on Him rather than on each other with "did"

And if you do not believe that to be true, then I don't know what else to say

I actually started the thread because the topic was hijacking several Universal Reconciliation (UR) threads, as some of those supporting that heresy kept bringing up this "God creates evil" notion in support of holding to the UR heresy.

I don't need to discuss "why He" when my Faith believes the evidence that He could not and would not. The people that want to imagine "why He might" and ask me to join them in such speculation would need to first convince me that Good can do evil. That has not happened because they cannot do it themselves, in fact the attempt to deny their view results in that by claiming there is some real moral difference between "creating", "making" and "doing" evil.

 

[jugghead]

Let me ask just one question ..... how can you fully comprehend what something is if you don't also know what it's not?

 

[2KnowHim]

The bottom line is, God is the Creator of all things.
In fact He said "I have created the waster to destroy".
Whether it's man or angel that brought evil into this world, God is The One who created them.
All things,....have their origins in God. And whether it is directly or indirectly, you can't deny that He is The one who created them. And to go one step further, He also says He has commanded all the host of Heaven.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

 

[Colter]

Some of the

Well some of us do absolutely believe (with true Faith) the Bible is Absolutely Infallible because of the evidence for Whom Inspired the writing and the collection of writing for it - just not in the blind faith way the people being mentioned mean infallible and inspired.

Saying the writer said "the man's eyes were as dark as a moonless night" could mean either a description of really dark brown eyes or in context and probably more likely in most instances something about the character of the man - eyes being the window to the soul and all - rather than an actual description of eye color. Same thing with God being like a big giant hen.

So while someone could say many English translations literally say "God creates evil", it does not follow simply because it says that, that the intended message is a belief that Good can do or actually does evil.

Some of the events reported in the newspaper are true, but that doesn't mean God wrote the newspaper.

The idea or belief that God created evil comes from the bible, it's not an extra biblical idea.

 

[Colter]

When God creates any free will being, such as Satan, he creates the potential for error, imperfection, evil or even sin. But that is not to say that it is Gods will for any being to choose evil or sin.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

When God creates any free will being, such as Satan, he creates the potential for error, imperfection, evil or even sin. But that is not to say that it is Gods will for any being to choose evil or sin.

Well that is sort of been my point. God created a perfect loving and beautiful creature, not evil. That creature was free to choose to be what it was made to be, or not. That creature freely chose not and led roughly a third of similar creatures, who also chose not, in rebellion against God. We call that creature Satan. They lost, but he has not admitted that to even himself yet. So Satan still seeks to prove he has not lost by helping to lead as many of us away from God and make the same choice he did. So yeah, we are part of this spiritual warfare in a battle whose end is already certain.

Bottom line, God did not create evil - but He certainly allowed for the potential of it in making creatures free to choose to make evil part of this reality.

 

[2KnowHim]

Bottom line, God did not create evil - but He certainly allowed for the potential of it in making creatures free to choose to make evil part of this reality.

Even in this statement, (no matter how deceived you are) God is still the creator of All things, to think anything else is a direct rejection of scripture. Jesus said in John 8:44 The devil was a murderer from the beginning...
So if God created the devil, then God created evil. And if God created the potential of evil, then He is still the creator of that Potential, how you can't see this is beyond me.

I also come to realize something in this statement that you made too Dr., for those who believe in free will, it's no wonder why you also believe in ET or annihilation, It takes the responsibility off of God and puts on to man, and therefore since you made the choice to follow Him and others didn't then it's also easy to condemn others to an Eternal Torment of fire.
It's all based on pride, you were wise enough to chose and they weren't, it's all based on your works and others works, and has nothing to do with Christ and His sacrifice at all.

I can see why and how you would believe in this heresy of Free will, it's serves two purposes, ......
#1. It's takes the Responsibility of Salvation off of God and puts it on man.
#2. It makes you wise in your own eyes for your choices and condemns those who didn't make them.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Even in this statement, (no matter how deceived you are) God is still the creator of All things, to think anything else is a direct rejection of scripture. Jesus said in John 8:44 The devil was a murderer from the beginning...
So if God created the devil, then God created evil. And if God created the potential of evil, then He is still the creator of that Potential, how you can't see this is beyond me.

I also come to realize something in this statement that you made too Dr., for those who believe in free will, it's no wonder why you also believe in ET or annihilation, It takes the responsibility off of God and puts on to man, and therefore since you made the choice to follow Him and others didn't then it's also easy to condemn others to an Eternal Torment of fire.
It's all based on pride, you were wise enough to chose and they weren't, it's all based on your works and others works, and has nothing to do with Christ and His sacrifice at all.

I can see why and how you would believe in this heresy of Free will, it's serves two purposes, ......
#1. It's takes the Responsibility of Salvation off of God and puts it on man.
#2. It makes you wise in your own eyes for your choices and condemns those who didn't make them.

I guess the part was missed where I stated God had made Satan as a chief among angels to serve, love and glorify Him. And that it was the freedom of such creatures itself which made the existence of evil one potential. Not a necessity, since clearly not all angels rebelled, but a potential before He made them that some could rebel.

That any could believe then such an honor as Satan is described as formerly having belongs to something that God is claimed to have created devoid, either partially or totally, of Good am at a loss to understand. How could God honor evil? That there was a rebellion of angels cannot be denied by any here because that is explicit in the Bible, whether one believes Satan led that rebellion or not. So no, God created angles and mankind to love, serve and to know Him and to share eternally in His Happiness. Unless we view God as inept, He cannot make such creatures even slightly evil (not Good). Which is why He can be understood as saying "it was Very Good" after He first made man. He made those same creatures, angels and mankind, free to chose to do what He made them to do or not. Having that freedom is really (to poorly paraphrase CS Lewis) the only way any meaningful type of Love can be expressed. None of us would except accept as real love or be fully satisfied with an act of love from another that was forced upon them. Why should we imagine God would accept or be fully satisfied with a love that is forced?

But yes, if instead one imagines a benevolent (meaning as posited by Plato and surely believed by all Christians as a God Who is All Good) creating a creature devoid of Goodness, then yes that would mean God creates evil. It would also mean for reasons already given that we could no longer see God as All Good. Mostly Good perhaps, but the only way to get to All Good is to maintain as our ECFs first did that, which yes mimics Plato's musings about a benevolent diety. The ECFs said God's Will is directed at only one thing Good (Himself). And that singular focus means it is impossible for Him to focus on anything other than Good, which means He could not Will Himself to create something that is not Good (perfect -as in the best it could be). And that includes a spirit, an angel now fallen, we call Satan. But, yes, one would be correct in imagining a god that did NOT have a will focused only on Good, could have that will turn away from Good (itself an evil act), conceive of something else (not Good-thus evil) and then act to make that evil exists (an evil act of that god). That is not the God most Christians think of when saying or at least understanding what a child expresses with "God is Good, God is great...."

False and unsupported opinions aside, Christians are not suppose to "condemn" or judge anyone. That is God's to do and Him alone. Am not wise in my own eyes, in fact I rather think more poorly of myself than I should given we are suppose to Love others as our self and that requires a love of self in order to properly be able to love others. If my words appear as an expression of wisdom of others it is only because of the wisdom God gave those who came before us, who in the course of teaching children and teenagers, I have come to appreciate and attempt to mimic their expressed understandings in my replies here. I cannot "know" what Scriptures mean unless another person teaches me (see the Acts of the Apostles). I have had and continue to have access to great teachers.

Am not sure anyone here is condemning others, what is being condemned is an understanding of Scriptures that would have someone believe a God Whom we all agree is All Good can possibly have created evil creatures. Which is why I have and typically remind folks in such discussions that we are all claiming to be Christians and no amount of disagreement should lead us to question anyone's right to assert their Faith in God.
And no, creating the conditions for the potential for something to exist is not the same as creating it. It is only the act of making that potential a reality which we can talk about as "creating" that thing, making it real. God cannot create the kind of evil we are talking about, but He can certainly allow it. The act of creating evil in our reality can only be done by angels and us (which by the way includes me, and yes it is sad in a Christian only part of the forums that I feel the need to clarify that less I get falsely accused of something again).

 

[2KnowHim]

I cannot "know" what Scriptures mean unless another person teaches me (see the Acts of the Apostles). I have had and continue to have access to great teachers.

I rest my case, you would rather listen to men teach you what the Word says, than The Holy Spirit, which is our Teacher, The Spirit of Truth. This is why you cannot see, and will remain as such because you don't believe you can Know scripture unless man teaches you. Jesus warned us of this:

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Dr. Bubba, I want to ask you a question.......Do you read the bible at all on your own, or do you not even bother because you believe you can't understand it lest someone teach you? I think the readers should know, since you don't ever use scripture.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Since when is God's image made from the dust of the Ground, and from the earth? And since when is God limited in what He could eat of like Adam was? And since when did God become apt to fall like Adam did? And since when has God ever been in disobedient to His own Word? God's image and likeness has always been His Word, His Son, Jesus Christ.
He is the image of God.

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Including evil.

Scripture cannot negate scripture, Denying this about Adam, negates Luke's genealogy connecting Jesus being the son of God because Adam was the son of God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I rest my case, you would rather listen to men teach you what the Word says, than The Holy Spirit, which is our Teacher, The Spirit of Truth. This is why you cannot see, and will remain as such because you don't believe you can Know scripture unless man teaches you. Jesus warned us of this:

Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Dr. Bubba, I want to ask you a question.......Do you read the bible at all on your own, or do you not even bother because you believe you can't understand it lest someone teach you? I think the readers should know, since you don't ever use scripture.

The devil can quote Scripture. Am not sure reading the Bible or knowing what it literally says qualifies someone to say they understand what it says to us. The devil also said God's Word did not really mean they would die. How did that work out for those that believed that understanding of God's Word?

Which was the point of the Scripture my prior reference to in Acts declares and would need to be totally ignored by someone suggesting we should blindly pick it up and expect to be correct on what one declare it says. And note too that I never said by what authority a particular thing can be taught, but simply that we cannot correctly understand Scripture unless another person helps guide and explain it to us. The Authority of all such teaching only comes from One Place and it is not me or anyone else who has walked this earth except the man Who is also God.

That parts of the Bible would be ignored in order to declare one's understanding of a particular verse (and feebly attempt to shame others who disagree) should also tell one something.

 

[Wgw]

The bottom line is, God is the Creator of all things.
In fact He said "I have created the waster to destroy".
Whether it's man or angel that brought evil into this world, God is The One who created them.
All things,....have their origins in God. And whether it is directly or indirectly, you can't deny that He is The one who created them. And to go one step further, He also says He has commanded all the host of Heaven.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Except evil is not a thing; it is not a Creature, but rather a derivative form of violence against Creation.

The nature of free will is that if one creates a being with free will, that being has the ability to destroy itself or other Creatures on proximity to it. This ability to destroy is thus created, however the act of destruction is a voluntary choice by the created being and represents the destruction of creation. All evil is by nature destruction either of the self or of foreign objects or other Persons.

Thus God did not create evil; evil is in fact un-creatable.

 

[Colter]

Maybe we should define evil first?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Maybe we should define evil first?

I believe in reference to the OT verse in question and being claimed to support that God indeed created and creates evil that the having a definition or some distinctions would be important. However the most vocal person making that unorthodox claim here in this thread has already said that in their opinion evil is evil and they believe Scripture says God did evil... though at same time they have admittedly denied that "doing" and "creating" are the same things. Somehow it makes sense to them to say causing evil to exist (by creating it) is not the same as causing evil to exist (by sinning and making the potential for it real).

Myself and others tried to explain to the same person there is a distinction that can be made between talking about moral evils and the suffering they can cause as opposed to the "natural" evils of this world which cause suffering. The later being the common understanding by Christians of the verse in question as well as the common understanding by the people who first received the OT.

Even in the case of "natural issues" however a case can be made that the only reason those are part of our reality right now is because of the corruption Adam caused by making his having made evil present with his first sin - and the resulting fall of mankind -which included the corruption of this reality - the "curse" as described in the Creation stories. So the cause of those existing is first Adam's actions and then we can speak of God's Just response to it. So now we have and God allows (much of the time without interference) things like famine, pestilence, storms, quakes, plagues....etc., natural evils. That those things exist can, in a broader detached view, only be looked at as existing for His Glory and the Greater Good - though we are not privy to that view without Him making it known to us.

 

[et1phone2home]

I just put it in parentheses to make an example. God did make Lucifer. But did God choose for Lucifer to pursue an evil path?
But I guess I need to reiterate. God made angels and people. He let both have free will. Does that help

 

[et1phone2home]

I agree with you .

About time someone does haha