Did God create evil?

[Jaxxi]

Human excrement is like foie gras for foiliage. So I cannot accept it as neccessarily evil; it is simply a human output like carbon dioxide; flora receive these outputs and in turn output oxygen and edible foodstuff which is either consumed directly or indirectly via thr carnivorous route.

Evil on the other hand is not a "thing," it is a destructive malignancy, action, orientation or behavior which is by nature uncreatable.

There is a dangerous dualism in your perspective predicated upon the fallacy that each type must have an antitype. This is not neccessarily true, as is witnessed by ghe hige imbalance between matter and antimatter, between matter and energy, and vacuum. This flawed cosmology is reminiscent of the Zoroastrian error that some physical things are the result of God and others the result of a diabolocal rival deity.

The human excrement thing was kind of a joke...lighten up. I never mentioned a diabolical rival deity and why would I when God created the one who is trying to be just that. There is no opposite to God which is my point. Therefore God created it.My reference to Lucifer is simply stating that evil was in the picture before we existed but it's origin is unknown as well as its purpose. Was it created by God? We do not know but if we believe God created everything then He created evil as well but we know humans did not create it- we are just born with it apparently.

 

[Wgw]

The human excrement thing was kind of a joke...lighten up. I never mentioned a diabolical rival deity and why would I when God created the one who is trying to be just that. There is no opposite to God which is my point. Therefore God created it.My reference to Lucifer is simply stating that evil was in the picture before we existed but it's origin is unknown as well as its purpose. Was it created by God? We do not know but if we believe God created everything then He created evil as well but we know humans did not create it- we are just born with it apparently.

Except an analysis of evil, lf sin, will reveal that it is by nature a destructive process and therefore uncreatable.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I say it does. Anything not under God's direction is evil and that is our environment.
We are born into a sin environment, not gently placed on heavenly clouds of tenderness.
If people are not careful, our heads bounce on the floor when we are born.
That's a pretty tough neighborhood to be born into. Many times, no milk is even provided!

Well I agree it is rough, but that too in the traditional orthodox view of our reality is a result of the corruption of ALL creation that was initially brought upon it by the evil Adam made real by his first sin and it only grew and continues to grow worse from there. Our sins today continue in the corruption of this creation. The only cure for that corruption is what God offers us out of His Love for us all and that He and possible by the act of Love His Son demonstrated in His Passion ending with His Death on the Cross, which is a victory He won for us and for all of His creation. A victory for not just giving us all hope for something far, far greater and Perfectly opposed to our current reality, but a victory in securing a future restoration of all of creation from the effects of sin on it - the corruption you mention.

BTW and connecting these thoughts to the OP, that corruption by our sin on creation God has allowed and it causes much suffering even for the innocent. Certainly God could, has and will intervene, and where it is recognized as a supernatural intervention we call those miracles. The Bible is witness to some of those as is the history of the Church/Christianity. The Bible also is witness to God using what sin had already set in motion and as indicated in the curse of creation briefly touched on in the Genius Creation Stories, and which the above post reminds us of the "rough neighborhood" we are born into.

And it would be proper for us to consider such all such things as bad, and by that we certainly mean the opposite of Good (which is also what we call evil). So when we speak collectively of things like tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, famine, pestilence (plagues), drought, flood...etc., we can and do properly label such things as "evils". Clearly they are certainly not good things. But in this case we do not mean "evil" in the same sense that we do when we speak of the morality of our actions. That these things exist in our currently reality and can indiscriminately cause great suffering (both of the innocent and the rest of us) no one denies. That God allows it such things to occur no one denies. He can (and has) of course prevent or even direct the course of such things. But God's allowing the consequences of sin, or even His intervention in it. For example using and directing a plague against the Egyptians for His Purposes, Glory and Good. In that case we can actually see the Good and Glory of His intervention in that particular event because the Bible gives witness that He is guiding events which result in making Salvation possible for us all.

So when we properly acknowledge His ability to direct the course of such events for the Good of humanity, using what already exists for Good purpose - even death itself in the plague of the first born - we can still in no way attribute the existence of (meaning creating, causing or doing) such things which we can and do call "evils". And that would be the proper and only possible understanding behind a verse which says God creates evil and darkness.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Of course God created evil if you believe God is the creator of all things. Everything created must have an opposite to exist. Where God is good and pure does not mean He could not create something foul and vulgar. Beautiful newborn babies that are pure and innocent still create nasty poop! It's just part of existence! We do not know the origin of evil because Lucifer chose to sin against God before humans were created so we know evil existed before our existence. Knowing the difference is the free will we are given. What I've always wondered is why would God give us the gift of free will and then punish us for using it if we choose the wrong one? Aren't we supposed to learn by the results we get from the actions we make but if we are punished what kind of free will is that? Seems pretty restricting to give us free will that is prohibited.

No, it is not true that a Creator of all things must be seen as being the cause for the existence of evil. And at least one point of the Creation story is that God did NOT make our reality with the evil we see now. No!!! In depicting the sureal/emphiral like existence/reality of Adam prior to the Fall as opposed to depiction of the effect on not just Adam but ALL of creation after his sin, that story attributes everything we can call evil to the sinful acts of creatures God made. Which is what was thousands of years ago and is still today meant when someone expresses the thought that a few angels and all mankind are directly responsible for making evil part of this reality.

One could perhaps suggest God is complicit because He made such creatures. But since according to Scriptures most of the angels did no evil and from the Bible all Christian believe at least one man is accepted as not doing evil. Many believe there are more examples in Scripture of at least no grave evil if any at all. So even though it is true He made us all (and everything that is), He obviously did not make us in a manner that forces us to do evil only capable of it. So IMO it is hard to say or see His act in making us makes Him complicit in what we choose to do. Neither could we imagine a God that Loves us and wants us to know and love Good (Him) as Someone Who would make us in way that requires us to do evil, as that would be making it impossible for us to do what we claim He made to do (Love, know and serve Good- serve here meaning love ourselves and others).

 

[Jaxxi]

No, it is not true that a Creator of all things must be seen as being the cause for the existence of evil. And at least one point of the Creation story is that God did make our reality with the evil we see now. No!!! In depicting the sureal/emphiral like existence/reality of Adam prior to the Fall as opposed to depiction of the effect on not just Adam but ALL of creation after his sin, that story attributes everything we can call evil to the sinful acts of creatures God made. Which is what was thousands of years ago and is still today meant when someone expresses the thought that a few angels and all mankind are directly responsible for making evil part of this reality.

One could perhaps suggest God is complicit because He made such creatures. But since according to Scriptures most of the angels did no evil and from the Bible all Christian believe at least one man is accepted as not doing evil. Many believe there are more examples in Scripture of at least no grave evil if any at all. So even though it is true He made us all (and everything that is), He obviously did not make us in a manner that forces us to do evil only capable of it. So IMO it is hard to say or see His act in making us makes Him complicit in what we choose to do. Neither could we imagine a God that Loves us and wants us to know and love Good (Him) as Someone Who would make us in way that requires us to do evil, as that would be making it impossible for us to do what we claim He made to do (Love, know and serve Good- serve here meaning love ourselves and others).

I believe I stated that we do not know the origin of evil. Lucifer embarked on evil and was cast down to earth to teach it to Eve. Had Lucifer not done this Adam and Eve would have never known evil correct? Evil therefore existed before the creation of man.

 

[Meanstreak]

That nothing happens outside of God's Will can simply mean what ever "is" (like suffering), He has allowed it to be so. It does not follow it had to happen that way - meaning He made it happen that way. No one implied evil "just happens". What was said is that evil happened, happens and will happen until He comes again because creatures He made make evil happen.

I respectfully disagree with this premise, that God simply "allows" things to happen. This describes a weak God that is not in control - a God who must wait for someone to do something evil in order to bring about His sovereign design. If he just "allowed" things to happen, how could he guarantee anything in the future, like all the prophecies mentioned in the Bible? The only way anything can be guaranteed to happen in the future is if God ordained it to be that way. God's ability to see into the future is based on the fact that He ordains the future to be a specified way - NOT because He has a cosmic crystal ball that shows Him what's to come.

 

[Colter]

I believe I stated that we do not know the origin of evil. Lucifer embarked on evil and was cast down to earth to teach it to Eve. Had Lucifer not done this Adam and Eve would have never known evil correct? Evil therefore existed before the creation of man.

This is true, it's one of many holes in the thousands of Christin doctrines. The "crafty beast" had already fallen, the earth was already populated as Cain was afraid of other tribes away from his mother Eve.

* Yes, Adam and Eve knew what evil was, they were instructed before coming to earth AND the beast knew it....."did God really say you shall not......."

* As you rightly point out, Lucifer had a previous existence in his original state as a loyal Son of God before falling into sin and rebellion. The obvious problem with the young earth creation narrative is "when" was Lucifer something other than evil????

 

[mikedsjr]

It distresses me deeply to see that someone who so obviously understands the concepts of piety and divine love suffering under the frightful notion that an infinitely good God would, in effect, elect to eternally torture someone regardless of their actions. This was never the faith of the early Church, but is rather a deeply unpleasant 16th century innovation that should properly rejected in favor of the concept of a loving God who is "no respecter of persons." In other words, a God that does not stack the cards against His creatures.

Reading again, I agree with your sentiment on the bold. I read it wrongly the first time. Even in my heaviest stance on Calvinism, I would agreed to this. I've moved more towards Lutheran theological viewpoint on this, yet I'm a baptist. I guess this makes me messed up.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I respectfully disagree with this premise, that God simply "allows" things to happen. This describes a weak God that is not in control - a God who must wait for someone to do something evil in order to bring about His sovereign design. If he just "allowed" things to happen, how could he guarantee anything in the future, like all the prophecies mentioned in the Bible? The only way anything can be guaranteed to happen in the future is if God ordained it to be that way. God's ability to see into the future is based on the fact that He ordains the future to be a specified way - NOT because He has a cosmic crystal ball that shows Him what's to come.

Have yet to meet or read of anyone who could logically explain suffering as something God creates without corrupting the thought that God is Good. Nor how His allowing the Just outcome of evil(rebellion/sin) somehow makes Him weak or not in control or unable to guarantee or unable to foresee.

Everything that is, is certainly ordained by God. That does not mean He cannot allow contingent things to occur. And any proper thought of His Knowledge must include the notion that He would not only know what is and will be, but also not all the possible other potential could have beens or could bes. It is mind boggling but the idea would be like laying all the potential outcomes out before God, He sees it all and yet still knows which line/path/paths reality will take. So no, saying God allows contingency is not claiming God is weak or not in control or unable to guarantee or unable to foresee. In fact it is precisely because He is the opposite of all that, that we can know He can just allow some things to happen.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I believe I stated that we do not know the origin of evil. Lucifer embarked on evil and was cast down to earth to teach it to Eve. Had Lucifer not done this Adam and Eve would have never known evil correct? Evil therefore existed before the creation of man.

Well certainly we could say it appears somewhat obvious from the Creation Stories that the angelic revolt had already occurred. Eve is actually shown putting up a defense, then finally succumbing to trickery. But the fact she initially objected and expressed that it would be wrong (sin) refutes the idea she lacked an understanding right/wrong.

Adam appears to have been right there watching this exchange with Eve, and without any help from Eve or Satan chooses to do it anyway. Which also helps explain why Adam's action is the one credited with the Fall and the curse on creation.

But it still does not follow that God created evil.

 

[2KnowHim]

Have yet to meet or read of anyone who could logically explain suffering as something God creates without corrupting the thought that God is Good.

Sure you have, but you just refuse to see it.

But it still does not follow that God created evil.

No it just denies what God Himself says.

Isa 45:7 I formH3335 the light,H216 and createH1254 darkness:H2822 I makeH6213 peace,H7965 and createH1254 evil:H7451 IH589 the LORDH3068 doH6213 allH3605 theseH428 things.

7451 [e] rā‘; רָ֑ע evil Adj
Hebrew Texts
Westminster Leningrad Codex
יֹוצֵ֥ר אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁלֹ֖ום וּבֹ֣ורֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃ ס
WLC (Consonants Only)
יוצר אור ובורא חשך עשה שלום ובורא רע אני יהוה עשה כל־אלה׃ ס
Aleppo Codex
ז יוצר אור ובורא חשך עשה שלום ובורא רע אני יהוה עשה כל אלה {פ}
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

 

[2KnowHim]

CLV
Lam 3:38 Do not both the evil and the good come forth from the mouth of the Supreme?
New American Standard Bible
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High That both good and ill go forth?
King James Bible
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Do not both adversity and good come from the mouth of the Most High?
International Standard Version
Do not both good and evil things proceed from the mouth of the Most High?
NET Bible
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that everything comes--both calamity and blessing?
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Both good and bad come from the mouth of the Most High God.
King James 2000 Bible
Out of the mouth of the most High proceeds not evil and good?

 

[SeventyTimes7]

Evil happens when we break out of the limits of the behavioural canons that exist because God exists.
Everything is ruled by God existence, so evil doesn't come from God, but it's possible to do evil if we don't follow His canons. Evil is generated but it doesn't exist in what concerns God and his existence. Evil is generated by opposing to God, by breaking the canons of love and respect.
God created the knowledge of good and evil, so God spoke of what is Evil to point at it as something we must not do.

 

[Yeshuas_My_Freedom]

When God is source of all things then yes, God created what we call evil. But what is evil defined as. The laws of nature are the creation of God. Just as God created righteousness so to it is necessary for there to be unrighteousness. It's what makes the rules of this living in relationship work.
God said he created all things. How could evil be an exception in and of itself? He had a mighty chat with Satan over Job. Omniscience created the angel that became his own adversary.

 

[Jaxxi]

Well certainly we could say it appears somewhat obvious from the Creation Stories that the angelic revolt had already occurred. Eve is actually shown putting up a defense, then finally succumbing to trickery. But the fact she initially objected and expressed that it would be wrong (sin) refutes the idea she lacked an understanding right/wrong.

Adam appears to have been right there watching this exchange with Eve, and without any help from Eve or Satan chooses to do it anyway. Which also helps explain why Adam's action is the one credited with the Fall and the curse on creation.

But it still does not follow that God created evil.

Though Gnostic in nature the first thoughtin three forms tells us that evil was in existence when God came to be

 

[jugghead]

Here is a question that has to be thought about .....

If evil did not exist, how could God prove how much He loves us?

 

[Yeshuas_My_Freedom]

Ick, I'd rather not think like that about God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Sure you have, but you just refuse to see it.



No it just denies what God Himself says.

Isa 45:7 I formH3335 the light,H216 and createH1254 darkness:H2822 I makeH6213 peace,H7965 and createH1254 evil:H7451 IH589 the LORDH3068 doH6213 allH3605 theseH428 things.

7451 [e] rā‘; רָ֑ע evil Adj
Hebrew Texts
Westminster Leningrad Codex
יֹוצֵ֥ר אֹור֙ וּבֹורֵ֣א חֹ֔שֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂ֥ה שָׁלֹ֖ום וּבֹ֣ורֵא רָ֑ע אֲנִ֥י יְהוָ֖ה עֹשֶׂ֥ה כָל־אֵֽלֶּה׃ ס
WLC (Consonants Only)
יוצר אור ובורא חשך עשה שלום ובורא רע אני יהוה עשה כל־אלה׃ ס
Aleppo Codex
ז יוצר אור ובורא חשך עשה שלום ובורא רע אני יהוה עשה כל אלה {פ}
רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun: - adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine ra’ah; as adjective or noun.]

As others and myself have repeatedly stated, there is only a small minority making the claim that this verse is to be understood as one presents it. So for most of us here in these forums, it is certainly not true that God said any such thing. That some want that verse to mean this goes without saying and the reason I started this thread - primarily to stop such distractions hijacking the UR thread.

And I never said the Bible does not literally say that - I have maintained however that it cannot be understood as meaning what some UR believers claim it means. And it cannot mean that because it would mean God is not Good. It is the same reason when people talk about suffering, especially of the innocent that they speak in terms of God allowing it - not causing it. He could certainly, and in the particular has on occasion, stopped it. He has also intervened in the course of human events to use natural calamities against forces opposed/challenging His Will. And we can accept that understanding of these specific verses without claiming God literally "creates evil".

I understand that you see no issue with having God do evil, which is the only way to logically say He makes or creates it. In fact to counter that logic you have suggested that doing, creating or making are totally different concepts, which has logical issues itself. That is ok too, we can agree to disagree that it is illogical.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Here is a question that has to be thought about .....

If evil did not exist, how could God prove how much He loves us?

We call a lot of things evil, wrong, bad. Just because most folks here do not blame God for those things being part of our reality does not mean we do not believe those things are real. It simply means they are real because creatures (Not God) made them part of our reality.

God did not need evil to be part of this creation to prove His Love. In fact He Loves the angels and most of them never rebelled, so obviously evil is not necessary to "prove" God's Love or to "prove" Good exists. If we accept He made us to know, love and serve Good, then there is nothing in that concept that requires "evil".

 

[DrBubbaLove]

When God is source of all things then yes, God created what we call evil. But what is evil defined as. The laws of nature are the creation of God. Just as God created righteousness so to it is necessary for there to be unrighteousness. It's what makes the rules of this living in relationship work.
God said he created all things. How could evil be an exception in and of itself? He had a mighty chat with Satan over Job. Omniscience created the angel that became his own adversary.

Again, if evil is viewed properly as what it is, God only made it one potential outcome in this reality by making creatures that were free to Love Him or not. The fact many Love Him (angels) without evil demonstrates this concept - they did not have to choose to bring evil into this reality - but some did.