Did God change his mind?

[1213]

Okay so the Bible says in Genesis that God wanted to destroy the world and mankind with a flood. It also says that God then changed his mind and warned Noah about the flood. ...

I don’t find the scripture that tells God changed His mind in the flood case.

 

[ewq1938]

I don’t find the scripture that tells God changed His mind in the flood case.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Here he wants to destroy everyone and everything.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

BUT, God looks at Noah and extends grace which means he will be spared from the original idea of destroying all.

That's God changing his mind to spare one family and a lot of animals because original he feels like destroying all and saving none.

Same thing with Sodom etc. God is initially going to kill everyone, then Abraham intervenes and starts making some deals with God. Ultimately ten righteous people could not be found so God will go ahead with the plans to destroy these cities but does decide to spare Lot's family rather than just killing everyone.

 

[bling]

You have to keep I n mind Jer. 18: 7 If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

Jerimiah is not introducing some “new” characteristic of God, but a truism from the beginning of time, which seems to be common knowledge of the people throughout time like the sinful gentiles in Nineveh.

This takes time to explain, but briefly: Since God knows the future perfectly, He cannot say through a prophet to a specific person or nation at a specific time: “If you do not repent I will destroy you”, since the “if” would suggest God does not know if they will or will not repent, but God can say: “I will destroy you” and with the understanding of the truism as stated in Jer. 18 not destroy you because you changed.

God can thus “repent” of what He said would happen, without the repentance being like our repenting. God can regret doing something, but that does not mean the same as when we regret doing something (meaning we would not have done it if we could go back in time and change it). The “regret” God has for doing something that resulted in tragedies can be just as regretful as with our regrets, but there was no other better way.

 

[ewq1938]

God can thus “repent” of what He said would happen, without the repentance being like our repenting.

That doesn't make any sense. Also, God does not know the future perfectly. That is also clear in scripture.


Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

"He dug it all around, removed its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it and also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, but it produced only worthless ones" (Isa. 5:2).

Here God clearly expected one thing but another thing occurred proving in this particular situation showing he did not know what would occur.

God can choose to know the future or choose not to as in the above example.

 

[_Dave_]

I've already said my piece higher up in this thread, but I think it's important to sort something out here with the thinking that God changes his mind after learning something or other.

One of God's absolutely unambiguous character attributes is his omniscience; which is clearly stated throughout Scripture.

1 John 3:20, Matthew 10:29-30, Isaiah 46:9-10, Psalm 139:4, Psalm 139:1-3, 15-16), and 1 Kings 8:39, for example.

That omniscient attribute of God is an integral part of God that just simply cannot be denied without challenging the character of God himself. Some off-shoot religions like open theism try to do just that sort of thing.

So if we run across some text that makes it appear that God can learn something he didn't know and then change His mind then our job is to be diligent and search the text for the real meaning of the verse. God gave us that challenging verse for a reason, and it is certainly not to undermine what He has already given us about his character attributes.

 

[bling]

That doesn't make any sense. Also, God does not know the future perfectly. That is also clear in scripture.


Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

"He dug it all around, removed its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it and also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, but it produced only worthless ones" (Isa. 5:2).

Here God clearly expected one thing but another thing occurred proving in this particular situation showing he did not know what would occur.

God can choose to know the future or choose not to as in the above example.

Read Jer. 18

 

[ghtan]

I've already said my piece higher up in this thread, but I think it's important to sort something out here with the thinking that God changes his mind after learning something or other.

One of God's absolutely unambiguous character attributes is his omniscience; which is clearly stated throughout Scripture.

1 John 3:20, Matthew 10:29-30, Isaiah 46:9-10, Psalm 139:4, Psalm 139:1-3, 15-16), and 1 Kings 8:39, for example.

That omniscient attribute of God is an integral part of God that just simply cannot be denied without challenging the character of God himself. Some off-shoot religions like open theism try to do just that sort of thing.

So if we run across some text that makes it appear that God can learn something he didn't know and then change His mind then our job is to be diligent and search the text for the real meaning of the verse. God gave us that challenging verse for a reason, and it is certainly not to undermine what He has already given us about his character attributes.

Hi there!
None of the verses you quoted requires that God foreknows every detail about the future. (He certainly knows the important ones.) Also, many of those verses are just about the present. Instead, the clearest statement that the future is not fully known is Jesus' admission that he did not know the date of his return. And he was fully God wasn't he?

 

[Soyeong]

Okay so the Bible says in Genesis that God wanted to destroy the world and mankind with a flood. It also says that God then changed his mind and warned Noah about the flood. Was God going to always do this? If yes than why does bible say that God changed his mind? Did God then remember his promise to Adam and Eve to send a savior? Also think about it. Had God not changed his mind none of us would be here or could be saved and given eternal life. So we should thank God for that.

It is important to keep in mind that the Bible is written from an observer perspective. For example, if we were walking in the same direction that the wind is blowing, then we would say that the wind is for us, but if we were to turn around and walk in the opposite direction, then we would say that the wind is against us even though the wind hasn't changed. Or it looks to us like the Sun is moving around the earth when it is really the earth that is moving.

 

[_Dave_]

Hi there!
None of the verses you quoted requires that God foreknows every detail about the future. (He certainly knows the important ones.) Also, many of those verses are just about the present. Instead, the clearest statement that the future is not fully known is Jesus' admission that he did not know the date of his return. And he was fully God wasn't he?

Just to be sure ... you are saying that one of God's attributes, his omniscience, is a lie. Are there others you deny? Omnipresence? Some do believe that God is bound by time. Omnipotence? God is not all-powerful?

"Jesus' admission that he did not know the date of his return."

As God walked the earth in the form of the incarnate Jesus he was fully God and fully man. It was the human side of Jesus speaking when he said that. Just like when he had to leave his Godhood behind for a bit in order for the human side to take on the sins of the world for us. God cannot be sin, so he had to shed his God side temporarily in order to save us.

It's what I said about looking for the real meaning if some Scripture apparently contradicting God's omniscience looms in front of us. It's not because God is not omniscient. It's because we don't fully understand the verse.

We learn in Revelation 1:1 that Jesus had it all revealed to Him as He resided in heaven, again fully God. Note, though, that although Jesus now knows all the details of His second coming, it still wasn't released to John to tell us when. Some say that's because God does not want Satan to know the exact hour.

But, be absolutely sure ... God knows because He knows the future, because he is not bound by time. God sees the past, present and future as if it is all happening right in front of him. To deny that is to deny one of God's greatest attributes.

 

[1213]

...BUT, God looks at Noah and extends grace which means he will be spared from the original idea of destroying all.

That's God changing his mind to spare one family and a lot of animals because original he feels like destroying all and saving none.

Same thing with Sodom etc. God is initially going to kill everyone, then Abraham intervenes and starts making some deals with God....

I think it is really not changing mind. God doesn’t want to destroy righteous people. God destroys evil people. And that doesn’t change. Evil will be destroyed and righteous will live, that is how it has been and will be. Noah was not destroyed, because he was counted righteous and not evil.

 

[CaspianSails]

God also changed his mind regarding the Israelites after they made the golden calf. He swore to destroy them and make a nation for Himself from the descendants of Moses instead. At the prayer of Moses He then changed His mind again and allowed them to live.

That utterly refutes the notion of strict predestination. We cannot say that all things or all people are predestined, we can only say that we don't know, "for who is to know the mind of God".

I would agree and it is an issue I have with strict predestination as it is called. I understand both sides of that coin. At least in the narratives God's decision is at least in part affected by His mercy and grace towards those who clearly demonstrate their dedication to Him as their God and subjugate themselves to Him.

 

[ghtan]

Just to be sure ... you are saying that one of God's attributes, his omniscience, is a lie. Are there others you deny? Omnipresence? Some do believe that God is bound by time. Omnipotence? God is not all-powerful?

"Jesus' admission that he did not know the date of his return."

As God walked the earth in the form of the incarnate Jesus he was fully God and fully man. It was the human side of Jesus speaking when he said that. Just like when he had to leave his Godhood behind for a bit in order for the human side to take on the sins of the world for us. God cannot be sin, so he had to shed his God side temporarily in order to save us.

It's what I said about looking for the real meaning if some Scripture apparently contradicting God's omniscience looms in front of us. It's not because God is not omniscient. It's because we don't fully understand the verse.

We learn in Revelation 1:1 that Jesus had it all revealed to Him as He resided in heaven, again fully God. Note, though, that although Jesus now knows all the details of His second coming, it still wasn't released to John to tell us when. Some say that's because God does not want Satan to know the exact hour.

But, be absolutely sure ... God knows because He knows the future, because he is not bound by time. God sees the past, present and future as if it is all happening right in front of him. To deny that is to deny one of God's greatest attributes.

God is omniscient, but it is classical theists that argue God’s omniscience includes every detail of the future. The bible nowhere says it. So it does not contradict scripture to believe the future is not fully fixed.

And Jesus not knowing the date of his return is proof. Classical theists have to invent the theory that Jesus was speaking from his human mind. But that is so unconvincing that others have proposed alternative theories, e.g. the kenotic theory. (I’m not saying the latter is right.)

Just prior to Jesus’ admission, he was prophesying about the future and must therefore have been using his divine mind. Did he then suddenly switch to his human mind to admit ignorance? Not only does that make him sound schizophrenic, he would also be dishonest. If he did not want his disciples to know the date of his return, he should just tell them it was none of their business. No need to feign ignorance. It is not what we expect of a truthful Jesus.

I believe what Jesus meant was the date had not been fixed. He would then be speaking honestly. If God chooses to fix only some of the future, who are we to insist he must fix all of it? Let God be God!

As a parallel, the bible also says Jesus is the saviour of the world. Does that mean everyone will be saved? No, because other verses indicate some will be lost. Does that mean God is not omnipotent? Of course not.

Similarly, the bible says God knows everything but then Jesus openly admitted he did not know the date of his return. Does that mean God is not omniscient? Again, of course not. It just means “everything” in those verses refers to the past and present but not the future. That is what we would normally assume if someone says he or she knows everything.

 

[ewq1938]

I think it is really not changing mind.

Sure it is. If you are going to kill everyone, then decide to only kill most, that is a change of mind.

 

[1213]

Sure it is. If you are going to kill everyone, then decide to only kill most, that is a change of mind.

I think you are not accurate in what you say. God decided to kill all evil on earth (=dry land). If Noah was not evil, he was not going to be one of them. And it is not changing mind then.

 

[thisgal]

If God can't change his mind, then God can not and has not ever had a brand new thought - all His thoughts were at once and are entirely complete. This is lunacy, IMO. The nature of who God is does not change, He is consistent in that way, but his mind most definitely can move within the realm of his nature.

 

[ewq1938]

I think you are not accurate in what you say.

I'm fully accurate:

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He's going to kill everyone and everything except fish/sealife.

It is only after that thought does he give grace to one man and his family:

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

It's the same with the sister story of Lot. Originally he was going to kill all, but Abraham intervenes and tries to get God to spare everyone if a certain number of righteous people were found. Enough wasn't found but God does decide to, again, spare one man and his family.

 

[_Dave_]

I'm fully accurate:

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He's going to kill everyone and everything except fish/sealife.

It is only after that thought does he give grace to one man and his family:

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

It's the same with the sister story of Lot. Originally he was going to kill all, but Abraham intervenes and tries to get God to spare everyone if a certain number of righteous people were found. Enough wasn't found but God does decide to, again, spare one man and his family.

Ewk, you are missing the point of the flood.

While God had a plan for man to commune with Him, at first in the Garden, but later as a redeemed man in heaven, Satan also had a plan to corrupt the line that would eventually produce the Savior that redeems mankind.

That was the point of Satan's tempting Eve, and the point of his corrupting mankind at Genesis 6. God could not produce mankind's sinless savior from a corrupted, sinful human race.

So, when He decided to wipe mankind out and start over with an uncorrupted human race He knew that Noah and his family were "clean" so He set them aside from the flood.

Are you really believing that God, who knows everything, who created the vastness of the universe, heaven, earth, and everything as we know it with just a thought and a word, didn't see Noah growing up pure and undefiled, didn't see Noah's family remaining pure? Come on!

Gen 6:13 is the giveaway. "And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

God is telling Noah his plan. God had Noah in mind even as he was planning to destroy all of the wicked, corrupted humans. Noah didn't just spring suddenly into existence just before God pulled the trigger on the flood. Give God some credit for being God.

 

[1213]

... I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He's going to kill everyone and everything except fish/sealife....

Bible tells everything from the surface of earth (dry land). But Noah was not on surface of earth, when he was in the ark.

 

[ewq1938]

Ewk, you are missing the point of the flood..

No, everyone knows the point of the flood. It is simply a fact that God first was going to destroy all life, but then decided to extend grace to Noah, the same thing with the story of Lot.

 

[ewq1938]

Bible tells everything from the surface of earth (dry land). But Noah was not on surface of earth, when he was in the ark.

There was no Ark when God stated, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them"

That's all life except what's in the waters.