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Featured Did God change his mind?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, Feb 14, 2019.

  1. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    God changes his mind sometimes but that isn't "God changing". He says he has changed his mind so that part isn't an "if" type of question. What God wants isn't always set in stone, so he can be flexible and decide differently and he has. People simply have preconceived beliefs about God that aren't accurate.
     
  2. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I'm just reading what the Bible actually says. God told Moses that He could destroy the whole nation, as He had every right to do because of their disobedience and idolatry. The Bible does not say what God would have done if Moses had agreed to the deal. Anything added to the bare Biblical account is adding to God's Word something that is just not there.

    If God has revealed Himself as Someone who can change His mind about something, who are we to question that? God does not have to answer to us about anything He decides to do. Abraham could have negotiated with God to save Sodom and Gomorrah if there was just one righteous man in them, but it was Abraham who stopped negotiating. So the Bible shows that a human being can negotiate with God about things which He could do.

    The Bible does not say that God is locked into an unchangeable series of actions which His saints cannot change through prayer and faith. If every professing Christian in New Zealand and the United States read the Bible and prayed every day (and I mean read the Bible for honest understanding, and prayed from their hearts), we would have continuous revival in both countries. The reason we don't is not God's fault at all. It is because we don't ask for it in a way that would motivate God to do it.

    The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all may come to repentance. By your theory, God can't do anything else but save every human being and allow no one to go to hell, because He has decreed it and cannot change the decree. But the reality is that millions have already gone to hell, and millions more will go there. So there is a difference between your theory and reality.

    When God brought the Israelites out of Egypt, He mean for them to cross the wilderness and enter into the Promised Land within weeks, but He was prevented by the lack of faith of 10 of the 12 spies who were sent out to spy out the land. If you are saying that it was God's decree that the Israelites wandered the wilderness for 40 years until the old generation died out and that Moses was prevented from entering the Land then you are misreading the Bible and putting your own prejudicial take on it.

    If it was God's unchangeable decree that the Israelites possess the whole land, and they ended up not possessing all of it, then there is a conflict between your theory of God's unchangeableness and the reality that the choices of human beings can prevent God from doing what He originally planned to do and forced Him to change His plans in order to achieve His objectives.

    There are many instances where God adapted and changed His plans in accordance with the choices that were made by humans. But His objectives remained the same and in due time, they were achieved in completing His plan of salvation through Christ.
     
  3. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    You have quoted this verse out of context. It was connected with God dealing with Balak and Balaam. Balak wanted Balaam to curse Israel, but God instructed Balaam to prophesy His Word for Israel instead. And God was not going to repent of His Word of blessing for Israel. Also, "change his mind" was not what the verse actually said. Repenting in this context is God not going back on the Word He had for Israel as they approached Canaan.

    So what you are doing is mis-applying God's Word to back up a questionable theory.
     
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  4. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Firstly, God does not have to learn anything. He already knows everything that is knowable.

    Secondly God could have destroyed the whole nation and started a new one through Moses. Doing that would merely have delayed the outcome of His plan of salvation and the history of Israel would have been quite different. God has the whole of eternity to work in. He is not limited by time. If He chose to start all over again with a new nation through Moses, then He could have, and would have been above criticism for doing it.

    Thirdly, why bother to pray, if God has already decreed what is going to happen? Actually this is why 90% of professing Christians never spend time praying and pleading with God to influence their nation and bring sinners to Christ. It is because they believe as you do - what will be, will be, and there is no point trying to change it.
     
  5. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    Noah foreshadows Christ.

    Gen 5:29 - He named him Noah and said, "He will comfort us in the labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed.

    Noah means "to comfort"

    the "labor and painful toil of our hands caused by the ground the LORD has cursed" is the curse of man and man's inherited sin nature and the comfort or Noah is the salvation from this hardship. Noah here is an image of Christ. in Rom 5 Paul tells us "For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man" Through Adam man fell and the result was death, catastrophic death, but through Noah man was saved. Noah goes through the flood which is death and emerges new which is the resurrection. There is nothing random about this event and it is echoed throughout the Bible, in fact, death of the old [Adam] and resurrection into the new [Christ] is kind of the point of the entire thing.

    Noah is the redeemer of the text and this is by design. look at 6:6 "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled." This word "regretted" is from the root "nacham" in hebrew and it litterally "to be sorry, to comfort oneself". Let's jump back to when Noah was born "[Noah] will comfort us" is also is from the root nacham. Both are the same word with the exception of grammatical differences and tense. So we have this concept that Noah will give comfort and God comforting himself. God is not in a corner crying up in heaven, the text is deliberately showing a connection between Noah and God's comforting himself; Noah is this comfort.

    There is a translation called the Mechanical translation (MT) that seeks to pull out the concrete meanings of the Hebrew language in the way ancient Hebrew is read. It's can be odd to read but in cases like this, it reveals these connections far clearer. After each name in square brackets, there is always its meaning which we often miss unless explicit stated in the text.

    For example in the MT 5:29 is:
    and he called out his title “No'ahh [Rest]” saying, this one will much comfort us from our work and from the hardship of our hands, from the ground which “YHWH [He exists]” much cursed

    and 6:6-8 is:
    6 and “YHWH [He exists]” was comforted given that he made the human in the land and he distressed himself to his heart

    7 and “YHWH [He exists]” said, I will wipe away the human which I fattened from upon the face of the ground, from the human as well as the the beast as well as the treader and also the flyer of the sky given that I was comforted given that I made them,

    8 and “No'ahh [Rest]” found beauty in the eyes of “YHWH [He exists]”,

    The text is deliberately pulling in Noah as this comfort and rest needed for creation. God is not regretting as in changing his mind, he is making a way for salvation for man.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It repented God........... Means God cannot remain good if he does not kill sinners. So his repentance means that he no longer sustained them but gave them what they deserved by destroying all in the flood.

    That is; how does God repent from creating man? He repents by destroying him.
     
  7. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    But God also made a promise to Adam and Eve to send a savior so how can he desire to destroy mankind yet also send a savior? Did he only intend to save Adam and Eve and the righteous dead? Because in one sense God promised a savior to Adam and Eve and in another sense he repented of his decision to make mankind and wanted to destroy them all. I mean had God not found Noah righteous none of us would be alive or saved today. It's just kind of mindblowing.


    I mean if it was in God's plan all along to save Noah than why did God for one brief moment want to destroy him and all of mankind too?
     
  8. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Scripture answers your questions. Noah found grace as did all believers of all time. It was part of God's eternal purpose to save a few and damn the rest.
     
  9. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc Eternal life is a free gift. Amen. Supporter

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    But wasn't Noah and his family the only people on Earth that God found righteous? So that means that all of mankind today are not only descendants of Adam and Eve but Noah as well. I mean why did God find Noah and his family righteous? Surely other people believed in the true God and creator of the universe. There has to be another reason that God was like "Kill all humans" (why did that make me think of bender from futurama? Lol) one second and then he was like wait! There's still like 4 righteous humans left! Okay ill warn them about the flood and tell them to build an arc. It just makes no sense. I mean why did God even repent at all? What's the point in God repenting?
     
  10. Sorn

    Sorn Active Member

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    God does not change from the perspective that he is unaffected by the passing of time, he does not age or get sick etc. He also does not change his personality. However that does not precluded him changing his mind. There may well be many paths open to him to reach his end goals or objectives.
    So he may decide to go down a different path to what he intended but still achieve his goals.
     
  11. RaymondG

    RaymondG Well-Known Member

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    "8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

    Those who believe that God changes his mind, must also fear that their plan of salvation could change......making null and void everything they believe for their future.....for it is only a mind change away from being wrong....
     
  12. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Gen 6:7-8 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

    I don't see where in the first few verses in Genesis 6 the text tells us that God decided something and then changed his mind.

    If you follow the antecedent for the pronoun "them" you'll notice that the wickedness that was in the earth is what God intended to destroy. But, all along that did not include Noah.

    It could be paraphrased as: I will destroy everything that has become wicked, Noah, except for you and your immediate family because you are not wicked.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.” (Genesis 6:8) (KJV 1900)
     
  14. Halbhh

    Halbhh The wonder and awe of "all things" Supporter

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    Over and over in scripture we learn that there really are genuine choices, and that God will indeed deal with us according to those choices.

    While after that cleansing, He promised not to use a flood again....He did not say He won't ever intervene again to destroy.

    And that's not just a small thing at times, we see when we hear the warning much later in time in Malachi:

    (though verse 6 is the ultimatum to humankind, I think it helps to read all 6 verses of this short chapter) --

    1“Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LordAlmighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them. 2 But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its rays. And you will go out and frolic like well-fed calves. 3 Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act,” says the Lord Almighty.

    4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.

    5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. 6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”


    (This is another way to understand how very serious the "even" worst abomination was in Deuteronomy 12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in this way, because they practice for their gods every abomination which the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods., and why the Canaanite cities were totally destroyed because of it)

    So, we see now how meaningful it is in the first chapter of the Gospel of Luke how John the Baptist (the return of Elijah), that his mission included to "turn the hearts of the parents to their children". It's not a small thing. It's a life or death thing for a peoples. Now, God can warn of of evils we'd never do in our own land or time...hopefully..., but consider: how many could have imagined ahead of time where Germany would go to in the 1930s and 40s, the place it arrived at? See, the choice that Christ Jesus presents to us is profoundly Life or Death.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  15. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    No, he decided later to save Noah. Originally he did want to kill everyone. It's the same with the story of Lot, which is compared to the story of Noah. There God was going to kill everyone but later changed his mind to save Lot and his family. It's the same basic story repeated.
     
  16. ghtan

    ghtan New Member

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    I take your reply to mean you think God does learn. I agree. Actually, there is nothing wrong with God learning. If he has given humans freewill, he cannot be 100% sure what humans would choose to do in every situation. E.g. whether Abraham would actually sacrifice Isaac. Thereafter, God said "NOW I KNOW that you fear God." So God learned that Abraham feared him even to that extent.
     
  17. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Yeah but that would be a special type of learning based on how unpredictable freewill humans act as opposed to learning in the normal sense.
     
  18. Legroom

    Legroom New Member

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    God is Absolute, Eternal, he is not constrained by time. God is everywhere and every-when.
     
  19. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    Even with the Lot example I'd still have to disagree.

    God, in the form of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, bargained with Abraham in Genesis 18 before going down into Sodom to destroy it and all its inhabitants. To me, however, the text clearly gives the impression that as Jesus bargains with Abraham He has His tongue firmly in cheek.

    I mean, really? Does anyone think they can bargain with God and make Him do something He doesn't want to do or didn't plan in the first place? Of course, Jesus obviously knew the outcome before He even started "bargaining" with Abraham.

    The important takeaway from both these episodes -- Noah and Sodom -- is how it illustrates that God will take the faithful out before His wrath brings destruction to the wicked and unrepentant. These typologies from the Old Testament are absolutely unambiguous about a future snatching away of His own.

    So, instead of the flood and Sodom being illustrations of God as capricious and changing his mind they were, instead, illustrations of how merciful God is to save the faithful. Something we're promised, and are counting on. Right?
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Chewbacca kree! Supporter

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    Yes and it happened more than once. God isn't a robot who sets his mind and that's it. He is willing to work with us if we convince him.

    Actually it shows both, that God can and does change his mind and that he will save the faithful.
     
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