Did Constantine save Christianity?

Constantine certainly was an interesting character. Following his "conversion" he had his eldest son executed by strangulation and his wife boiled alive.

JackRT said:

Constantine certainly was an interesting character. Following his "conversion" he had his eldest son executed by strangulation and his wife boiled alive.

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I believe there are some questions about the veracity of those accounts, but yes he is complex and pivotal, both for the Church and for the political realities of both East and West. Something of the Edict of Milan makes it's way to the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights. I believe he was neither all good, nor all bad, but perhaps a bit Curates Egg!

Just to clarify, Constantine might have had a Labarum on his shield at Milvian Bridge, not necessarily a Chi-Rho, especcially as this symbol appears on coinage and as a battle standard thereafter. This is a cross with a bent end at the top.

Also we see in the pagan Letter to Maxentius saying Constantine having had a vision promising him a thirty year reign in about 306, if I remember correctly. Some have argued this vision is the same as his vision before Milvian Bridge, which was then later put just before the battle for effect. Regardless the thinking goes that it was a Solar Halo effect as this could give you a cross shape or could be interpreted as three Xs for thirty.

Percivale said:

Do you believe the fifth century was a time when the church was healthy and its leadership generally did the right thing? I believe their using force to suppress other religions and beliefs was very bad.

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In what way did they use force to suppress other religions? I don't believe they did any such thing.

JackRT said:

Constantine was heavily influenced by Eusebius in the direction he went. Unfortunately Eusebius was a consummate liar.

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Eusebius was sympathetic to the Arians...

Root of Jesse said:

In what way did they use force to suppress other religions? I don't believe they did any such thing.

Click to expand...

314 ---Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of the Goddess Artemis.

324 ---At Dydima, Asia Minor, Constantine sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.


326 ---Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc..


330 ---Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.


335 ---Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.


341 ---Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.


346 ---New large-scale persecutions of the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius, who is accused of being a "magician".


353 ---An edict of Constantius decrees the death penalty for all forms of worship involving sacrifice and "idols".


354 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. The first burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.


356 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".


357 ---Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).


359 ---In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.


361 to 363 ---Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.


363 ---Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).


364 ---Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination. Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, including private ones.


365 ---An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.


370 ---Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the city-squares of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.


372 ---Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and destroy all writings of their wisdom.


373 ---New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.


375 ---The Temple of the God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.


380 ---On the 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the Christian god and outlaws all disagreements with Church dogma. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of the Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.


381 ---On May the 2nd, Theodosius deprives Christians that return to the Pagan Religion of all their rights. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of the Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.


382 ---"Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yah) is imposed in the christian mass.


384 ---Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius (a dedicated christian), to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.


385 to 388 ---Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and his bishop "Saint" Marcellus, scour the countryside with their gangs, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Pagans from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.


386 ---Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.


388 ---Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.


389 to 390 ---All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.


391 ---On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of the God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.


392 ---On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" (“gentilicia superstitio”). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, "Saints" Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius' edict declares: "the ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.


393 ---The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.


395 ---Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 ---On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.


397 ---"Demolish them!" Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.


398 ---The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).


399 ---With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished:


400 ---Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of God Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the Gentiles of this area.


401 ---The christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop, also a..,"Saint", Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and demolish the remaining nine still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).


405 ---John Chrysostom sends his hordes of gray-clad monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.


406 ---John Chrysostom collects funds from rich christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus, he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, "Saints" Epiphanius and Eutychius continue persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.


407 ---A new edict outlaws once more all non-christian acts of worship.


408 ---The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius, order together that all sculptures of the Pagan Temples be either destroyed or confiscated. Private ownership of Pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against Gentiles and new book burning. Judges showing pity for Gentiles are also persecuted.


409 ---Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punishable by death.


415 ---In Alexandria, Egypt, the mob urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the judaeo-christian Pascha (Pesach-Easter) and hacks to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. Pieces of her body are paraded by the christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, and are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the Pagan priests of North Africa, who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.


416 ----The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December), all non-christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.


423 ---Emperor Theodosius II, declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and tortured.


429 ---The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. Athenian Pagans are persecuted.


435 ---On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all "heretics" and “pagans” of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-christian Religion.


438 ---Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason for a recent plague!


440 to 450 ---The christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.


448 ---Theodosius II orders all non-christian books burned.


450 ---All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stauroupolis (City of the Cross)...


451 ---A new edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that "idolatry" is to be punished by death.


457 to 491 ---Sporadic persecutions against Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of the island of Imbros, in the northeast Aegean. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.


482 to 488 ---The majority of the Gentiles of Asia Minor are exterminated, after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.


486 ---More "underground" Pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.


515 ---Baptism becomes obligatory, even for those that already say they are christian. The Emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites.


528 ---Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts, or cutting by iron nails) of all who practice "sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles ("..the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes").


529 ---Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy, which has its property confiscated.


532 ---The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Asia Minor.


542 ----Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished Pagan Temples.


546 ---Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.


556 ---Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.


562 ---Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.


578 to 582 ---Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis (Baalbek).


580 ---Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the other Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals are unwilling to tear them to pieces and they end up crucified. Their corpses are dragged through the streets by the christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the city dump.


583 ---New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.


590 ---Throughout the Eastern Empire, christian accusers "discover" Pagan conspiracies. A new wave of torture and executions erupts.


692 ---The "Penthekte" Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other Pagan / Dionysian festivals..


804 ---The Gentile Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.


950 to 988 ---Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian "Saint" Nikon.

JackRT said:

314 ---Immediately after its full legalisation, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of the Goddess Artemis.

324 ---At Dydima, Asia Minor, Constantine sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its Pagan priests to death. He evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Hellenic Temples.


326 ---Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc..


330 ---Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the Pagan Temples in Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.


335 ---Constantine sacks many Pagan Temples of Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of “all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatros.


341 ---Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.


346 ---New large-scale persecutions of the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius, who is accused of being a "magician".


353 ---An edict of Constantius decrees the death penalty for all forms of worship involving sacrifice and "idols".


354 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Pagan priests. The first burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed Pagan Temples. A large part of Sacred Gentile architecture is turned into lime.


356 ---A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters".


357 ---Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).


359 ---In Skythopolis, Syria, christians organise the first death camps for the torture and execution of arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.


361 to 363 ---Religious tolerance and restoration of Pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the Pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.


363 ---Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).


364 ---Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination. Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of Pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in Pagan rituals, including private ones.


365 ---An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army to command christian soldiers.


370 ---Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Pagans, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the city-squares of the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.


372 ---Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Hellenes and destroy all writings of their wisdom.


373 ---New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the christians to lessen the Gentiles.


375 ---The Temple of the God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.


380 ---On the 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the Christian god and outlaws all disagreements with Church dogma. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan Temples of his area. Christian priests lead the mob against the Temple of the Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius, ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.


381 ---On May the 2nd, Theodosius deprives Christians that return to the Pagan Religion of all their rights. Throughout the Eastern Empire, Pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of the Goddess Aphrodite is turned into a brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis into stables.


382 ---"Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yah) is imposed in the christian mass.


384 ---Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect, Maternus Cynegius (a dedicated christian), to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Asia Minor.


385 to 388 ---Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and his bishop "Saint" Marcellus, scour the countryside with their gangs, sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Amongst others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Pagans from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.


386 ---Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of sacked Pagan Temples.


388 ---Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius, with a hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.


389 to 390 ---All non-christian calenders are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood into Middle Eastern and Egyptian cities, destroying statues, altars, Libraries and Pagan Temples, whilst Gentiles are lynched. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesques the Pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The christian mob profanes the cult images.


391 ---On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to Pagan Temples but also looking at vandalised statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights, finally lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of the God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the christians occupy the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.


392 ---On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all non-christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" (“gentilicia superstitio”). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop, "Saints" Epiphanius and Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius' edict declares: "the ones that won't obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living on the island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.


393 ---The Pythian, Aktia and Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.


395 ---Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) lead to new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptised Goths (led by Alaric) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by christian monks, the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Hellenes and burn the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all of its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396 ---On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that Paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining Pagan priests and hierophants.


397 ---"Demolish them!" Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still erect Pagan Temples demolished.


398 ---The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to all, including its bishops, the study of Gentile books. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the Pagan Temples of his city (except nine of them that remain active).


399 ---With a new edict (13th July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all remaining Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished:


400 ---Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of God Dionysus in Vesai and baptises all the Gentiles of this area.


401 ---The christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop, also a..,"Saint", Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and demolish the remaining nine still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).


405 ---John Chrysostom sends his hordes of gray-clad monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.


406 ---John Chrysostom collects funds from rich christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus, he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, "Saints" Epiphanius and Eutychius continue persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.


407 ---A new edict outlaws once more all non-christian acts of worship.


408 ---The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius, order together that all sculptures of the Pagan Temples be either destroyed or confiscated. Private ownership of Pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against Gentiles and new book burning. Judges showing pity for Gentiles are also persecuted.


409 ---Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punishable by death.


415 ---In Alexandria, Egypt, the mob urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the judaeo-christian Pascha (Pesach-Easter) and hacks to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. Pieces of her body are paraded by the christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, and are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the Pagan priests of North Africa, who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.


416 ----The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December), all non-christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.


423 ---Emperor Theodosius II, declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and tortured.


429 ---The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. Athenian Pagans are persecuted.


435 ---On 14th November, a new edict by Theodosius II orders the death penalty for all "heretics" and “pagans” of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-christian Religion.


438 ---Theodosius II issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason for a recent plague!


440 to 450 ---The christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.


448 ---Theodosius II orders all non-christian books burned.


450 ---All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stauroupolis (City of the Cross)...


451 ---A new edict by Theodosius II (4th November) emphasises that "idolatry" is to be punished by death.


457 to 491 ---Sporadic persecutions against Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytiser Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of the island of Imbros, in the northeast Aegean. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.


482 to 488 ---The majority of the Gentiles of Asia Minor are exterminated, after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.


486 ---More "underground" Pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.


515 ---Baptism becomes obligatory, even for those that already say they are christian. The Emperor of Constantinople, Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites.


528 ---Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts, or cutting by iron nails) of all who practice "sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles ("..the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes").


529 ---Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy, which has its property confiscated.


532 ---The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatical monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Asia Minor.


542 ----Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia in Asia Minor. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished Pagan Temples.


546 ---Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.


556 ---Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.


562 ---Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.


578 to 582 ---Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis (Baalbek).


580 ---Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the other Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals are unwilling to tear them to pieces and they end up crucified. Their corpses are dragged through the streets by the christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the city dump.


583 ---New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.


590 ---Throughout the Eastern Empire, christian accusers "discover" Pagan conspiracies. A new wave of torture and executions erupts.


692 ---The "Penthekte" Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other Pagan / Dionysian festivals..


804 ---The Gentile Hellenes of Laconia, Greece, resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.


950 to 988 ---Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian "Saint" Nikon.

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You've posted this list before. It is alas rife with historical inaccuracies and downright riduculous statements.
I have quoted my response to this list from a previous thread below, although you only quoted the first two centuries then.

Quid est Veritas? said:

We have gotten off topic here, but there are so many mistakes in this list, I feel I have to correct some.

Firstly, a Christian council denouncing Pagan worship hardly constitutes persecution. This was obviously not official government policy.
Regarding Constantine and the Pagans: He did not institute any suppression of Paganism. Constantine closed two temples in his reign, notably a temple of Aphrodite in Lebanon (on account of prostitution) and had the practice of Eunuch priests ended (he did execute a few as well in the process), hardly a persecution. He also removed the altar of Victory from the senate.
But Statues of the old gods were still erected in his reign on government orders for his subjects (see Zosimus) and the official sacrifice and government temple subsidies went on as before.
He did loot artwork and so forth for Constantinople, but this was standard practice at the time when founding a city. Besides those were public artworks and were therefore only moved to a new public area, so it can hardly be called looting.
On balance according to both Christian (Eusebius) and Pagan sources, Constantine did not end nor restrict pagan worship nor destroyed temples more than a standard emperor would have.
On Sopater of Apamea: He was one of Constantine's many Pagan Philosopher friends. He died due to court machinations, not on account of his faith. Hardly a pagan martyrdom. (However the official charge was for practicing magic, but all the historians at the time agree this was just a trumped up charge)



I believe they are here talking of Emperor Constantius II?
There is no record of large scale persecutions under this emperor of anything other than Orthodox Christianity. No Pagan persecution occurred.
Constantius II remained Pontifex Maximus until his death, like his father. He appointed pagan priests to empty temples in North Africa, never acted against the vestal virgins or any of the Priestly colleges in Rome and no record of any complaint by pagan senators of their treatment can be found from his reign (the first of many such complaints occurs about 20 years after his death).
He did however end government subsidies to the pagan temples and ended official sacrifices and rites. With the collapse of the government funded rites, certain private individuals tried to infiltrate those old temples to do their sacrifices. Constantius then completely closed those temples and forbade sacrifice within them on pain of death (in 353).
As these large government buildings now stood empty, they were converted into law courts etc or fell in disrepair and were used for building materials as was the practice at the time. There was no "profaning" of sacred sites, merely repurposing of already abandoned ones.

Constantius however did pass a law making it illegal to vandalise pagan sites and placed those sights under the authority of their priests. Hardly the work of a persecutor of pagans.

Libanius was never sent into exile on account of his beliefs. All records show him living where and when he chooses.
There were no death camps erected to kill pagans nor any large scale killing of pagan priests. That is completely untrue and not supported by any historical writing I have ever come across.

The outlawing of Divination etc. was standard roman practice. Every now and then the Emperors use to do it, so if that is persecution of pagans, than Augustus, Tiberius, Marcus Aurelius, Hadrian etc. all persecuted pagans.


This Rassias is a very suspect, unreliable and down right incorrect source, I am afraid.

After this came Julian the Apostate's attempts to restore official pagan worship, which of course failed. The tolerant atmosphere however continued under the next few Emperors. Gratian then closed the priestly colleges in Rome and ended the Vestal Virgins, but this was to appropriate their incomes, not really based on religious reasons.

The first persecutions of Pagans in the west started under Valentinian II in 391 when he forbade private sacrifices and prohibited the visiting of temples. This effectively outlawed Paganism, but no suppression or killings were carried out.
The real persecution of Paganism started under Theodosius I with the Theodosian decrees in 389-391, where he outlawed all sacrifices and temple visits in the eastern half of the empire, extending them to the rest in 392 when he became sole emperor. He actively encouraged and participated in the destruction of temples and holy images and those caught offering sacrifices were put to death.
Following Theodosius, the next emperors to the end of the Roman period merely enforced his decrees and gradually Paganism disappeared as the last pagans were forced underground and all eventually converted.
These persecutions were however the death knell of a slowly dying system. Christianity had been growing rapidly and replacing Paganism everywhere since its birth. At Constantine's accession the Christian population was probably about 20%, but by the time of the beginning of the pagan persecutions, most of the population had been largely Christianised (at least in the cities). It is estimated that in 300 for in stance the entire area of Lower Egypt was already Christian and the only thing maintaining the continued existence of the temples there was the government subsidy and their land holdings.

Just as Christians sometimes exaggerate their persecutions at the hand of the Romans, there is a tendency to today exaggerate the suppression of Paganism at the hand of the Christians. It was largely a coup-de-grace to a corpse. Even the much vaunted suppression of the philosophy schools is nonsense as philosophy continued to be taught. They merely closed those that had taken on a religious dimension and largely merely become religious institutions (even Plato's Academy, sadly, had merely become a Neoplatonist temple at this stage). If Paganism had been vibrant and alive, then no amount of persecution would have supressed it, yet it is gone. Christianity flourished even under the (admittedly short) periods of active persecution, which shows us its vibrancy and the deep need it filled in the populace.
Do not try in a false sense of 'were just as bad as they are' to invent some large scale persecution. The record does not support this.

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@JackRT this list of yours is very silly indeed. I mean it says Jovian ordered the Library of Alexandria burnt down. What? What source is that derived from? This is that typical obfuscation where people are supposed to think this the 'Great Library' of the Ptolemies, which was in all likelihood broken up and sold by the later members of that dynasty. It is disingenuous to say the least.

It intimates "death camps" and tortures and martyrdoms for pagans that are simply completely and utterly absent from the historical record, even amongst pagan records. Libanius wrote extensively and never mentions this, nor is this supposed strife ever exploited by Rome's enemies. Sassanian Persia would use Jews and Samaritans against Rome, pay barbarian tribes etc. but somehow never used this suppressed pagan population? Really now.

I am sorry, but this list is frankly bizarre. There was legitimately Christian suppression of paganism, but by that stage Paganism had largely run its course in the Empire. This idea of a concerted effort to stamp out paganism is utter nonsense. I mean the Christian states of Europe tried for centuries to destroy Judaism within their realms and never succeeded. This clearly shows that Paganism died a natural death as it was gradually replaced by conversion to Christianity, even if perhaps helped along here and there when temples were closed or rites prohibited, else Pagans would have remained into modern times.
We see for instance that lower Egypt was already mostly Christian by the early 4th century basef on graves and epigraphic evidence, so literally it was only the government taxes and their lands that kept the Temples open there. To close such large public buildings when no longer needed is really not persecution, but fiscal responsibility.
Christianity prevailed in the maelstrom of religious ideas in the late Roman Empire and continued to expand into former Pagan areas thereafter. To think this due to some intensive persecution of pagans is simply unsupportable.

That seems to agree with what I've read, as well. Paganism, the cult of the traditional gods, as a political force was dying by the time of Constantine, and as a religious force it was thoroughly hollow.

FireDragon76 said:

That seems to agree with what I've read, as well. Paganism, the cult of the traditional gods, as a political force was dying by the time of Constantine, and as a religious force it was thoroughly hollow.

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Paganism had been hollow for centuries. Claudius Pulcher threw the sacred chickens in the water with the words "if they don't eat, let them drink" during the Punic Wars. We see Martial and Juvenal clearly intimating the open secret that auspices were faked as necessary.
Traditional Roman religion had been eclipsed, which is why Isis worship, Mithraism, Gnosticism, Orphism, Jupiter Dolichenus, Manichaeism and Christianity made such inroads.

Radrook said:

Quite to the contrary, there are those who view Constantine as ushering in the Apostasy from true Christianity by encouraging the influx of pagan ideas into the Church in order to unify his empire religiously.

Great Apostasy - Wikipedia

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I agree with this assessment...the Roman church became heavily paganized, with statues of the various gods, and subversion of the true word of God in the Bible..that exists to this very day, and getting worse, as the popes of the day can change the word of God for their followers on a whim. The Antichrist Is Hidden In Plain Sight

heretoeternity1 said:

I agree with this assessment...the Roman church became heavily paganized, with statues of the various gods, and subversion of the true word of God in the Bible..that exists to this very day, and getting worse, as the popes of the day can change the word of God for their followers on a whim. The Antichrist Is Hidden In Plain Sight

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I would agree that pagan influences did creep in but your assertion about "statues of many gods" is untrue. Starting with Constantine a persecution of the pagans began that went on for centuries. Temples and statues and libraries were profaned and smashed and burned.

I don't know about you folks but I'm gonna watch this video


It is very informative and an eye opener

MJFlores said:

I don't know about you folks but I'm gonna watch this video


It is very informative and an eye opener

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The guy starts off good, then veers off past left field. Christ did only establish one Church, but it's not the Church of Christ denomination.

I was going to say, he seems assured about what is canonical Scriptures but he has no way of accounting for that without the early Church, which he claims was hopelessly corrupt.

seeking633 said:

I just caught a bit of an episode from the six-hour series "Ancient Roads from Christ to Constantine".

Going into it, I thought that the series would offer an interesting rehash of what historians know of the events leading from the early Nazarene assembly to the conditions surrounding the rise of Constantine as the champion of the changing Christian church in Rome. But having only caught the narration of host Jonathan Phillips on the conversion of Constantine and his subsequent influence on Christendom, I had already found myself in constant disagreement with what he was saying and refused to listen any further.

In short, Mr. Phillips suggests that if Constantine had not accepted Christianity, this weird Judaic sect would have died out or at least become fatally splintered in the thousands of so-called "heresies" that the Roman Church was able to eventually put down.

Is this what Catholics believe? That the millions living far beyond the pale of Rome and Constantinople held to nothing more than weak and dying iterations of Christian faith? I somehow believe that the Vaudois of Southern France would have disagreed considering that they were the epitome of what every well-bred citizen of Europe should aspire to.

I would like to hear your opinion on the matter.

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This story, most famously told by Jehovah Witnesses and Fundamentalist Protestants, came out of their necessity to support their lie that there was an apostasy in the early Church. It is their way to explain how their reform and late arrival is justifiable.

THE MYTH

The Roman Emperor Constantine established himself as the head of the church around 313 A.D., which made this new “Christianity” the official religion of the Roman Empire. Later, in 325 A.D., Constantine called the Council of Nicaea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. As head of this new church, Constantine merged Christianity with pagan beliefs to create the harlot of Babylon as we read about in the book of Revelation.

LOGICAL PROBLEMS

If Constantine started the Catholic Church, then it would, therefore, seem to follow that Constantine himself was a Catholic Christian. This was not the case. Constantine (possibly) would not be baptized into the faith until he was on his deathbed on May 22, 337 A.D.

For Christianity to become the official religion of the Roman Empire, would require an Edict. The Edict of Milan, which was issued by Constantine and Licinius only put Christians on equal footing with all the other recognized religions in the Roman Empire; granting the same religious freedom that was already being extended to the pagans and Jews. It would not be until 392 A.D. when Emperor Theodosius removed government support from the old Roman pagan religions and established the Christian Faith (Catholicism) as the sole religion of the empire.

If by virtue of Constantine calling a general council of all the bishops of the Church to meet with him at Nicaea a Church was created, it then, therefore, follows that:
(a) the Church that existed prior to the Council from which all the bishops were called merged themselves into the new church of Constantine;
(b) we should see no continuity between the preexisting church and the new Church;
(c) we should see no continuity between the pre-Nicaea Church and modern day Catholic Church.

The reason why Emperor Constantine called the Council of Nicaea was to resolve the controversy over Arius’ teaching that Christ Jesus was not consubstantial with God the Father. Therefore, it then follows that for there to have been a heresy or even an counter belief to create a controversy, there must have been prior to Arianism a well-established belief about the nature Jesus Christ in a Church community that all agreed with this understanding. Otherwise, the teachings of Arius would not have caused such a controversy.

That Constantine assembled together all of the bishops of the Roman Empire proves that there were well-organized dioceses and churches prior the First Council of Nicaea who were in agreement with each other. Further research into this area will demonstrate the precise areas in which they agreed, such as the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, about many of the books which were thought to be inspired Scripture, and the Bishop of Rome being the successor of Peter and the head of the universal Church.

218 years before the Council of Nicaea Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, appointed by Saint Peter, wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans in which he used the word ‘Catholic’ to denote the Church established by Jesus Christ:
“Wheresoever the bishop shall appear, there let the people also be: as Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”

In that same letter (106 A.D.) Saint Ignatius, thought to be ordained by St. John the Apostle, gave a teaching about the Holy Eucharist that continues to be taught only by the Catholic Church today.

170 years before the Council of Nicaea Saint Justin Martyr wrote in First Apology (a letter to pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161 A.D.) explaining what Christians did at Mass.

136 years before the Council of Nicaea Saint Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, and a disciple of Saint Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John, proclaimed that all churches must be in unity with the Church in Rome, which was established by Peter and Paul.

If Emperor Constantine started the Catholic Church, then there should be no way to trace the continuity of every Bishop in Rome, from Peter to Francis today. To the contrary, there is only one Church on the face of this earth that can verifiably point to the Church in Rome, established by Peter and Paul, and by continuity in leadership, doctrine, and tradition show a seamless continuity from the first century until today, and that Church is the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Radrook said:

Quite to the contrary, there are those who view Constantine as ushering in the Apostasy from true Christianity by encouraging the influx of pagan ideas into the Church in order to unify his empire religiously.

Great Apostasy - Wikipedia

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Those who hold this view are usually fundamentalists, JW's and SDA's with an axe to grind. "influx of pagan ideas into the Church" is a fallacy that no one has been able to prove.
Is Catholicism Pagan?

kepha31 said:

Those who hold this view are usually fundamentalists, JW's and SDA's with an axe to grind. "influx of pagan ideas into the Church" is a fallacy that no one has been able to prove.
Is Catholicism Pagan?

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Is that why Protestantism never took place? Because the Church had always stayed true to Christian teachings? The fallacy is to consider the Catholic Church beyond reproach and the Pope infallible. That's the fallacy.

Radrook said:

Is that why Protestantism never took place? Because the Church had always stayed true to Christian teachings? The fallacy is to consider the Catholic Church beyond reproach and the Pope infallible. That's the fallacy.

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The advent of Protestantism is a complex matter; to say it was just a matter of reformers disagreeing over doctrines is simplistic to the extreme. I said " fundamentalists, JW's and SDA's" I didn't say all Protestants, many of whom strongly disagree with fundamentalists.
If you accept the pagan influence fallacy as true, then produce the evidence. Whatever documentation you produce, it won't hold up to the 4 questions in Is Catholicism Pagan?
The Church is doctrinally with error, that does not mean the behavior of each member is always without error. The reformation is a whole different topic and nothing to do with the pagan influence fallacy.

The Pope, as an individual, is not infallible. Infallibility doesn't come from popes or councils, it comes from the promises of Christ Himself. It is a charism where the Holy Spirit prevents the Church from teaching error, so it's not from popes or councils. There are numerous indications of infallibility in Scripture:

Acts 9:2; 22:4; 24:14,22 - the early Church is identified as the "Way" prophesied in Isaiah 35:8 where fools will not err therein.

Matt. 10:20; Luke 12:12 - Jesus tells His apostles it is not they who speak, but the Spirit of their Father speaking through them. If the Spirit is the one speaking and leading the Church, the Church cannot err on matters of faith and morals.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus promises the gates of Hades would never prevail against the Church. This requires that the Church teach infallibly. If the Church did not have the gift of infallibility, the gates of Hades and error would prevail. Also, since the Catholic Church was the only Church that existed up until the Reformation, those who follow the Protestant reformers call Christ a liar by saying that Hades did prevail.

Matt. 16:19 - for Jesus to give Peter and the apostles, mere human beings, the authority to bind in heaven what they bound on earth requires infallibility. This is a gift of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with the holiness of the person receiving the gift. (heaven cannot bind an error)

Matt. 18:17-18 - the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus promises that He will be with the Church always. Jesus' presence in the Church assures infallible teaching on faith and morals. With Jesus present, we can never be deceived.

Mark 8:33 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to down play Peter's authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding.

Luke 10:16 - whoever hears you, hears me. Whoever rejects you, rejects me. Jesus is very clear that the bishops of the Church speak with Christ's infallible authority.

Luke 22:32 - Jesus prays for Peter, that his faith may not fail. Jesus' prayer for Peter's faith is perfectly efficacious, and this allows Peter to teach the faith without error (which means infallibly). (unless you argue that the Father didn't hear Jesus' prayer)

John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.

1 & 2 Peter - for example, Peter denied Christ, he was rebuked by his greatest bishop (Paul), and yet he wrote two infallible encyclicals. Further, if Peter could teach infallibly by writing, why could he not also teach infallibly by preaching? And why couldn't his successors so teach as well?

Gen. to Deut.; Psalms; Paul - Moses and maybe Paul were murderers and David was an adulterer and murderer, but they also wrote infallibly. God uses us sinful human beings because when they respond to His grace and change their lives, we give God greater glory and His presence is made more manifest in our sinful world.

John 14:16 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would be with the Church forever. The Spirit prevents the teaching of error on faith and morals. It is guaranteed because the guarantee comes from God Himself who cannot lie.

John 14:26 - Jesus promises that the Holy Spirit would teach the Church (the apostles and successors) all things regarding the faith. This means that the Church can teach us the right moral positions on such things as in vitro fertilization, surrogate mothers, cloning and other issues that are not addressed in the Bible. After all, these issues of morality are necessary for our salvation, and God would not leave such important issues to be decided by us sinners without His divine assistance.

John 16:12 - Jesus had many things to say but the apostles couldn't bear them at that point. This demonstrates that the Church's infallible doctrine develops over time. All public Revelation was completed with the death of the last apostle, but the doctrine of God's Revelation develops as our minds and hearts are able to welcome and understand it. God teaches His children only as much as they can bear, for their own good.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.

Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.

There is more, that's enough for now. I'm guessing that after all this, you still won't understand infallibility.

kepha31 said:

The Church is doctrinally with error, that does not mean the behavior of each member is always without error. The reformation is a whole different topic and nothing to do with the pagan influence fallacy.

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I agree.

kepha31 said:

The Pope, as an individual, is not infallible. Infallibility doesn't come from popes or councils, it comes from the promises of Christ Himself. It is a charism where the Holy Spirit prevents the Church from teaching error, so it's not from popes or councils. There are numerous indications of infallibility in Scripture:

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I am of a view that we should not be over confident in what we claim here. I would hold a view, not that the Church cannot make mistakes, but that overall it will be preserved from absolute error, that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it - Matthew 16:18. I think the alternate view that the Church is always correct has a number of problems that would require us to adopt a Theology of Alternative Facts and Alternative Histories which may lead us into a sea of relativism in which we drown.

kepha31 said:

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will "guide" the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

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This of course is a very strong Gospel claim, and the point I want to ensure that we understand has to do with the gentle leading of the Spirit. This is not a dictum about rule and authority, nor is it about kingdoms and armies, this is about being led into all truth.


I do not look for a Pope who says 'you do not respect my authority' but I do respect a Pope who says 'Our division is a scandal and shame' (Pope Francis to Justin Welby Archbishop of Canterbury 2016)