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That spoke of the anointing God provided for kings....Saul was saved, that is news to me. When I read it how can one be saved when God departed from Him.
1 Sam. 28:16 ff
Then Samuel said: “Why then do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy?
I've been giving your post some thought and it made me realise there is another reason Adam could not have had eternal life. Bear with my thinking here for I am still processing but ....
The Church is to be the Bride of Christ. In giving us eternal life, God the Son has effectively pledged His life to us as a Husband and to withdraw that life would be to effectively hand us a notice of divorce.
We know God allowed for divorce but His reasoning was because we are stubborn and a recalcitrant mob, in other words because we are sinners. For anyone to say God would withdraw eternal life is to effectively say He is hardhearted.
Matthew 19:8
He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so.
Quite the contrary. God foreknows what will happen thus He does not need to predestine.Ac 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (divine foreknowledge)
Divine foreknowledge is God knowing in advance what he is going to do, because from before the foundations of the world, he has decreed that he shall do it.
He predestined people to be conformed to His Image, doing the same thing as Adam was doing before he sinned. But before any of these features take place people must believe and join His Kingdom/Church/the Elect.For those whom God foreknew from before the foundations of the world; i.e., those whom God has decreed shall be glorified (Ro 8:29-30), he therefore predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" (Ro 8:29), etc., etc. . .to glorification.
There was election of Jacob over Esau, The new birth can be determined very easily. It happens a baptism and Chrismation, It is joining the Kingdom and recieving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.Predestination is about the pre-(determined) destination of particular persons whom he foreknew; i.e., the particular persons whose destiny he has decreed from before the foundations of the world, based on nothing but his sovereign pleasure, choice and decree,
just as it was with Jacob (Ro 9:11-12), and just as it is in the new birth, where the sovereign action of the Holy Spirit is an unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).
You are exactly correct. It has nothing to do with people being predestined, It has to do with the things that the Holy Spirit is going to do with a believer.(And if that don't light yer fire, then yer wood's wet!)
Predestination is not about a group which meets certain specifications, thereby qualifying them for predestination because of those qualifications.
Adam didn't need these things because pre-fall, He had a direct relationship with God. He was required to work with God to become His likeness, same thing we need to do.That would take up too many posts to do it justice but if you Google "things we receive at the moment of salvation" you will see what we have been given. Different pastors vary the number and of course some things weren't necessary pre-fall but even so, Adam still was not given things we have post-fall. Some examples are ....
1. The mind of Christ
2. Baptism of the Holy Spirit
3. Indwelling Spirit
4. Eternal life
5. to rule with Christ (distinct from being ruled over by Christ)
... and many other assets.
So that puts Saul in Sheol. . .in Hades, not Paradise.1 Samuel 28:19
Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
I believe Samuel was residing on the Paradise side of Sheol at the time.
Are you sure about that in this case?I guess there's just no accounting for the grace and mercy of the Lord God.
Nice philosophy but hardly scriptural. It is a gift but we are expected to use that gift, not ignore it, not hide it, nor quench it.Ugh!!! no-one "attains" eternal life, it is a gift, freely given.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
If you are a believer you are in Christ and have eternal life period. Where Christians fail is working that life out in their experience but God never rescinds His gift of eternal life.
The irony in working out ones salvation is to not work but to rest in the work of Christ and allow Him to transfer what He attained to us.
They were in Sheol, Samuel in Paradise, Saul in Hades.Yes, suicide. But, Samuel would say you are misinformed.......
That is.. unless Samuel was not saved, and Saul was going to be with him the next day not in Abraham's side...
God is justice. God is love. God can not change to appease human emotions. What God declares righteous in salvation, remains.
Seems you don't have a full grasp of the terms.Quite the contrary. God foreknows what will happen thus He does not need to predestine.
As I stated, it seems you do not have a full grasp of the terms.He predestined people to be conformed to His Image, doing the same thing as Adam was doing before he sinned. But before any of these features take place people must believe and join His Kingdom/Church/the Elect.
There was election of Jacob over Esau, The new birth can be determined very easily. It happens a baptism and Chrismation, It is joining the Kingdom and recieving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
In the Jn 3:5-6 context of birthing: flesh gives birth to fleshly life (human life within the natural body), andSuits me just don't start up again when I repeat the scripture that says "Spirit gives birth to spirit" actually means the Spirit gives birth to spirit and doesn't mean being given a gift.
So, you can't show it logically.There is a lot that is not predestined. One thing for sure has never been predestined is who will believe. Your use of "first cause" and Calvin's other words such as immediate and secondary causes is a philosophical way he tries to make his predestination theory viable.
Which is one of the reasons the Church has declared Calvinism heretical back in 1672.
Nor can you show this. It is only a construction, based on self-determination.A believer becomes an elect by faith. A believer is a chosen one that as an elect God (the Holy Spirit) will work with one to attain the conforming. None of this happens until one is IN CHRIST.
They were in Sheol, Samuel in Paradise, Saul in Hades.
Why was God with Saul to begin with?I Sam 28:16 has nothing to do with anointing. It has to do with Saul in fear of the Philistines and he comes to Samuel to get advice. Samuel says God is not with Him and won't be because he forsook Him.
I disagree with everything you have said here and I don't want our conversation to turn into a back and forth "game of table tennis" (so to speak). You have a nice day.Adam didn't need these things because pre-fall, He had a direct relationship with God. He was required to work with God to become His likeness, same thing we need to do.
Our problem is that we need help since we exist in a fallen world, with a fallen human nature. We have an indwelling of the Holy Spirit because the OT way was not effective where the Holy Spirit worked externally upon individuals. Adam also had eternal life. He lost it when he sinned. We lost the ability to achieve immortality working with God. Since man cannot do this post-fall, this is what Christ accomplished for us by His Incarnation and in the last day we shall all be made incorruptible, which Adam was in pre-fall, and by grace immortal.
And yet man quenches the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, so evident to Paul that he warns against it. I Thess 5:19.
Says the shonky real estate lady.So that puts Saul in Sheol. . .in Hades, not Paradise.
So you think you got your spirit, soul and body from your parents do you?In the Jn 3:5-6 context of birthing: flesh gives birth to fleshly life (human life within the natural body), and
the Spirit gives birth to spiritual life (God's eternal divine life imparted within the immortal human spirit; i.e., indwelling of the Holy Spirit).
In the Jn 3:5-6 context of birthing: flesh gives birth to fleshly life (human life within the natural body), and
the Spirit gives birth to spiritual life (God's eternal divine life imparted within the immortal human spirit; i.e., indwelling of the Holy Spirit).
First thing (which may sound "weird") is to define "eternal life".This issue was raised in another thread that I didn't get a chance to respond to as I went on holidays and it was off topic so thought I would deal with it here and see what you all have to say for yourselves.
I say he didn't as eternal life is imputed to our spirit and if Adam had eternal life he could not have died spiritually. It's also the reason we don't die even though we sin. You can't perish (spiritually) and have eternal life at the same time.
John 3:15
that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
What say you?
I have a grasp of scriptural terms. I don't have a grasp of Calvinistic terms and definitions. The only theology that holds your view are those holding to all or some of Calvinism. That came in the 16th century. That makes it 15 hundred years the church never held such a view which is why it has been condemned since.Seems you don't have a full grasp of the terms.
The reason he knows it is because he has predestined it to be so.
As I stated, it seems you do not have a full grasp of the terms.
Does God not use the unredeemed to accomplish his purposes?If Saul were an unbeliever? Why would God have been with him at one point?
And on what authoritative basis have you decided which you are?As a king? King David had the same kind of problem when he fell into deep sin.....
"Do not cast me from your presenceor take your Holy Spirit from me." Psalm 51:11There is much to learn and to know.
For some?
There is much to learn and to "no."
Agreed. . .see post #125.Be my guest if that is what you wish.
The Word explains itself when given the chance of allowing oneself to be corrected.
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