Did Adam and Eve even stand a chance?

JohnB445

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.

Those who reject Reformed Doctrine on its face, typically tend to believe in not only free will, but the rule of chance (which to me is a contradiction of terms) and the necessity of 'fairness' on the part of God.

But you are right that obedience is not a matter of intelligence. For those who believe in chance: if intelligence is what make a person more likely to reject the advances of the devil, then the whole matter is unfair.
 
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A_Thinker

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.
I would say that it wasn't a matter of mental strength (i.e. intelligence), but rather spiritual strength. As you have said, Adam/Eve were pretty fresh compared to the deceiving angel, and for this reason, they were ripe for defeat.

I believe that our utter dependence upon God needed to be sufficiently demonstrated, ... thus God's allowance of the Fall. Perhaps this is inherent in the creation of sentient creatures ... that the need to depend upon the Creator needs to be amply demonstrated.
 
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Not David

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.
God did not want to make humans fall. Do you think that is part of God's lovely nature?
 
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Jonaitis

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God did not want to make humans fall. Do you think that is part of God's lovely nature?

God, however, was pleased to permit their fall in keeping with his wise and holy will, because he had purposed to direct it for his own glory in Christ.
 
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SeventyOne

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.

Scripture tells us that Adam was not deceived. He made a choice willingly. Of course he had a chance.
 
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morse86

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Scripture tells us that Adam was not deceived. He made a choice willingly. Of course he had a chance.

Exactly.

1 Timothy 2:14:
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
 
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timothyu

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Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

There was no intelligence as we know it until they chose to put their will before God's.
 
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Of the Kingdom

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.

Certainly Adam and Eve "had a chance". Although it is not explicitly stated, most Christians believe that both of them did accept God's plan of salvation, so that after they had sinned and become aware of it, they learned the necessity to put their trust in God. Just like Abraham, I'm pretty sure Adam and Eve "believed God" and it was accounted to them as righteousness.

All sound Christian doctrine accepts predestination in the sense that God knew in advance what was going to happen. As far as I know, the primary difference between Calvinism and Arminianism is the understanding of God's motivation for setting things up the way He did.

Whether you can assume that Adam and Eve might not have fallen probably depends on your view of predestination (among other things), and that is indeed an interesting aspect of your question.
 
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God, however, was pleased to permit their fall in keeping with his wise and holy will, because he had purposed to direct it for his own glory in Christ.
God does not need to trick men to have glory, he gets glory for what he is.
 
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fhansen

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.
That first idea sounds so dumb tho, and evil. God made man a stupid sinner, then blamed him for sinning, then decided to send some of the stupid worthless sinners to heaven and the rest to hell.

It's not contingent on "intellectual mental works", whatever those are; it's contingent on the will, which God appeals to and aids via grace but refuses to force. It's the will that's being educated and formed and molded, in humanity through history and within ourselves in our own histories, over time. Otherwise the whole drama of human life, the centuries of pain, struggle, suffering, sin, and death mean nothing, have no purpose. It's all about the will, in fact, as the "prize" that God covets but refuses to override. From Eden on it's about our choosing, life over death, good over evil, God over no God.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.
Sin is not chosen because of a lack of intelligence. It is not avoided by superior intellect. Adam and Eve had a good chance. Desire overwhelmed intelligence.

Calvinism does not have a good answer as it makes God at fault for less than good work in making man. For them, it’s God’s fault.
 
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worshipjunkie

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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

Lucifer has been studying mankind for the past 6000 years and has lived longer than any humans ever had.

The Calvinists have a good response towards this, is that it further shows how helpless humans are, and their need for Christ. And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.

One good reason why I lean more towards predestination.

Because the opposite would just be sinful man with his own freewill making wise intellectual choices and once they make the final intellectual decision of coming to Christ, God gives them eternal life making it contingent on intellectual mental works.

I don't think you're taking into account who Adam and Eve were before the Fall. Everything about them- their intellect, their will, their bodies- all of it was perfected to a level ours simply is not. They had an ability to know God, resist temptation, and make the right choice that we as fallen humans do not have. I'm not saying that they are perfected in the same way glorified bodies are; but all our facilities have been affected by the Fall. By the Fall sin entered the world. Sin wasn't in the world already to enter them.
 
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Lucifer is an extremely intelligent fallen angel that has deceived 1/3 of other angels into following him.

God freshly made Adam and Eve and they also fell for the schemes of the fallen angel. Does this show that Lucifer and fallen angel's are more intelligent than humans?

And the fact that scripture outright says "man was created lower than the Angels" in Psalms.

Did Adam and Eve fall because they were not intelligent enough? Well if they were intelligent enough wouldn't they never had fallen for it, or did it have nothing to do with intelligence?

He also took 1/3 of the angels and they were no dummies.

Adam and Eve "were smart enough" to know that God told them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil - Eve explains that point plainly to the serpent.

It is a lesson for us - God does not promise us we will note be duped and genuinely deceived if disregarding God's Word we choose to associate ourselves with doctrinal error - going directly against the clear and plain teaching of God's word to see if maybe we can find a "story" about how it is ok to ignore the Word of God.

If we hold fast to God's Word - we survive the assaults of Satan no matter that he is far smarter than we are. IF we get into a debate with him - we will lose every time.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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And it glorifies God when God saves them from the captivity that they were once blinded by.
You have an inquiring mind, which is definitely evident given how almost all of your posts are questions seeking answers. Unfortunately, a finite/temporary mind cannot contain or comprehend all that the infinite/eternal God is, and must eventually rely on belief and trust, which would be the roots of faith. This is why when someone says they "know God" it must always be they have a trusting belief that they are acquainted with Him according to what He has shared with that person about Himself; and he or she is trusting that what they were told is true. It cannot ever mean they are omniscient or good, because only Yahweh is that. And it is important to remember that part of God's justice is that a person will not be judged according to any more than he or she is able to understand at the time. This ties in with something that is touched on at various points in scripture, and is why I agree with T.U.L.I.P. even though I wasn't raised in Calvinism or even familiar with it until several years after being convinced of God's sovereignty and Christ's authority. Here is the gist of my own understanding of it:

And I want to preface this by saying all that I am, and any ability I have, has been granted to me by my Creator. All praise, blessings, and glory be to Yahweh in the highest, in submission to the authority He gives the Christ. I am not wise in my own eyes, but an absolute simpleton and fool. My birthday is on April 1st, and, no matter who I tell this they rarely believe me unless I show them some sort of official identification. So please remember I am just an imperfect being hoping on being made worthy and perfected in Christ, sharing something that God gave me and wants me to share with anyone with the ears to hear it.

Mankind, as finite beings within an infinite one, are not the authors of themselves, and so cannot possibly be the authors of their own destiny. They are born from the elements, they pass through their place and time, and then they pass away; and all without their permission being asked or considered whatsoever. As the lives of humanity are products of their place and time, they are bound by the laws of cause and effect that have produced their place and time. However, these things are not to be thought of as "theirs" because they possess any of it, but because they have been assigned them.

As many that have studied the natural/physical world have discovered: By and large, without being freed from the workings of this world, human nature is dictated by biology, biology is dictated by chemistry, chemistry is dictated by physics, and physics is dictated by immutable preexisting laws laid down by God himself; and it is all on a temporary basis, with a beginning, middle, and end (it is scheduled). As long as one is bound by this chain of cause and effect one is a slave to it, whether blind to his or her state or not, and cannot in any way choose to disobey it. Essentially then, as a part of this world, one must share in everything that is slated for this world, including it's destruction*. But, if and when someone is offered salvation from it, there is a way out of this state of "slavery to sin". The way is not easy, cannot be earned or deserved in any way, and cannot be done by any mere natural desire for self-preservation; because that would more or less be based on the instinct of fearing physical death (it includes, in fact, the erasure of that instinct. Hebrews 2:15).

Even if salvaged and freed from all the aforementioned, you are still told "you are not your own" 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.

When Christ says "I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me" he is essentially saying he is not bound by the world's workings. He is free of its instincts, intentions, desires, expectations, fears, and destiny, and the regional ruler of it has no authority over Christ whatsoever. Christ is not, has never been and will never be, a slave to it. He was willing to give up everything it has to offer, in order glorify, obey and be present with His Father. And any person that Christ is given the authority to free from it, will also follow this path exemplified by his words and example of living on Earth. Such an example cannot be chosen and followed without something more being given to an individual than than what nature dispenses.

Now, when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, to where where were they cast down to? Where does Satan roam about looking for whom he may devour? Where does he have only a limited time to ruin and separate as many souls from knowing, loving, and serving their creator as possible? Where, and when, and over whom, does he have any jurisdiction at all? God is the sovereign ruler, He controls every finite and created being that exists within Him, so Satan can only have control over what the sovereign God allows him to. But any that are freed from being slaves to sin are not free to do as they please. Such people are no longer concerned with, or bound by, the laws or inclinations of this world, but are then called "slaves of righteousness" or "slaves of God" and then are living according to His laws (the moral code expounded and lived by the Christ) and are content here if they merely have food and clothing 1 Timothy 6:8. Either way, once freed from being a slave to this world and the sin it is enslaved by, absolute "freedom" or "lawlessness" is not allowable or available to a created being, but rather is held out as a deception that the devil promises one in exchange for a soul's eternal destiny- Not a good trade, by the way. Anyone that says they don't have to conform their lives to the commandments given, and are "freed from the law" because Jesus lived righteously for them, are quite probably deceived, along with all those that don't or will not ever even be shown that obedience to Christ's example is what is necessary to please God (and that can only be done if one is given the opportunity, which is why it states "to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10).

Are many deceived into believing they are free when they are not really? Yes, but they are not unwillingly deceived. To a certain extent your other thread is correct, sinners choose what they want; and what they want and love more than God is something in this world, and that is what keeps them bound to it and obeying it. They believe they are free when they are really still enslaved. When the world is destroyed, such will be destroyed along with it.

Adam and Eve entered us all into this slavery, and the blindness of it, through their disobedience. We are enmeshed in it and blinded to it and by it, we lust for it and cannot see beyond it unless we be salvaged from it; and will remain slaves to it unless freed from the chains of it. However, were they ever really free? The choice then was still a matter of who they would be a slave to, a just and Loving God or an unjust and vicious natural world; and were they able to make an informed choice, if they didn't really know what He meant when He said they would surely die from their disobedience? God only knows, the rest of us must deal in possibility and probability. But when you read that "through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." it is convenient to automatically think 'oh good' I'm glad he was obedient, so now I'm saved without having to do anything'. But that would be a fatal error. Rather look at it as the narrow, steep, and way of great difficulty. Because, from a natural/carnal mindset it's easy enough to keep following Adam's example, and quite nearly impossible to give up one's life to living Christ's example. Only the elect will be allowed and given that ability. The rest of us stand as much chance as Adam and Eve, and the devil only has control over those God allows him to. So trust that God is in control, and if given the will and ability to, imitate Jesus the Christ's example of living and, if need be, dying.

n*along with the promised destruction of this universe, there is the promise of a new heavens and earth. Those that are taken along are the ones headed for the perfected version of this fallen one we are currently in. Incidentally, this also fits with the scientific theory that the universe is always being crunched and big-banged into existence, along with all that exist within it. "The Big Crunch is one of the theoretical scenarios for the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the metric expansion of space eventually reverses and the universe re-collapses, ultimately causing the cosmic scale factor to reach zero or causing a reformation of the universe starting with another Big Bang." This is just my uneducated guess, but the worlds to come may be many, if not infinite in number.

**
another point to be made about T.U.L.I.P. is that while many misunderstandings crop up about OSAS one must still have the Spirit of Truth to discern what the reality of scripture is. There are a couple of verses that state one cannot have salvation forcibly taken from them, and that those in which salvation is completed cannot forcibly be taken from God's grace. There are a dozen or more stating that the offer of salvation can be neglected, abandoned, shipwrecked, turned away from, rejected, or that one can be deceived out of it Hebrews 2:3. Can salvation be lost? Evidently so, but only by those not given the will, ability, and opportunity to see it to completion. Consider this, if one must be willing to leave, husbands, wives, children, properties, and even his or her "own" life for the sake of the kingdom, what does it take to get to heaven? Would many even choose leave behind this world without a supernatural trust in something better waiting for them? Can anyone get there without being willing to give up everything else this world has to offer? The good news is that there is a way out of the slated destruction of the fallen world and into heaven, the bad news is that, for those that have filled up on and prefer the old wine, a person can't just hope and wish his or her way there.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You have an inquiring mind, which is definitely evident given how almost all of your posts are questions seeking answers. Unfortunately, a finite/temporary mind cannot contain or comprehend all that the infinite/eternal God is, and must eventually rely on belief and trust, which would be the roots of faith. This is why when someone says they "know God" it must always be they have a trusting belief that they are acquainted with Him according to what He has shared with that person about Himself; and he or she is trusting that what they were told is true. It cannot ever mean they are omniscient or good, because only Yahweh is that. And it is important to remember that part of God's justice is that a person will not be judged according to any more than he or she is able to understand at the time. This ties in with something that is touched on at various points in scripture, and is why I agree with T.U.L.I.P. even though I wasn't raised in Calvinism or even familiar with it until several years after being convinced of God's sovereignty and Christ's authority. Here is the gist of my own understanding of it:

And I want to preface this by saying all that I am, and any ability I have, has been granted to me by my Creator. All praise, blessings, and glory be to Yahweh in the highest, in submission to the authority He gives the Christ. I am not wise in my own eyes, but an absolute simpleton and fool. My birthday is on April 1st, and, no matter who I tell this they rarely believe me unless I show them some sort of official identification. So please remember I am just an imperfect being hoping on being made worthy and perfected in Christ, sharing something that God gave me and wants me to share with anyone with the ears to hear it.

Mankind, as finite beings within an infinite one, are not the authors of themselves, and so cannot possibly be the authors of their own destiny. They are born from the elements, they pass through their place and time, and then they pass away; and all without their permission being asked or considered whatsoever. As the lives of humanity are products of their place and time, they are bound by the laws of cause and effect that have produced their place and time. However, these things are not to be thought of as "theirs" because they possess any of it, but because they have been assigned them.

As many that have studied the natural/physical world have discovered: By and large, without being freed from the workings of this world, human nature is dictated by biology, biology is dictated by chemistry, chemistry is dictated by physics, and physics is dictated by immutable preexisting laws laid down by God himself; and it is all on a temporary basis, with a beginning, middle, and end (it is scheduled). As long as one is bound by this chain of cause and effect one is a slave to it, whether blind to his or her state or not, and cannot in any way choose to disobey it. Essentially then, as a part of this world, one must share in everything that is slated for this world, including it's destruction*. But, if and when someone is offered salvation from it, there is a way out of this state of "slavery to sin". The way is not easy, cannot be earned or deserved in any way, and cannot be done by any mere natural desire for self-preservation; because that would more or less be based on the instinct of fearing physical death (it includes, in fact, the erasure of that instinct. Hebrews 2:15).

Even if salvaged and freed from all the aforementioned, you are still told "you are not your own" 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.

When Christ says "I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me" he is essentially saying he is not bound by the world's workings. He is free of its instincts, intentions, desires, expectations, fears, and destiny, and the regional ruler of it has no authority over Christ whatsoever. Christ is not, has never been and will never be, a slave to it. He was willing to give up everything it has to offer, in order glorify, obey and be present with His Father. And any person that Christ is given the authority to free from it, will also follow this path exemplified by his words and example of living on Earth. Such an example cannot be chosen and followed without something more being given to an individual than than what nature dispenses.

Now, when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven, to where where were they cast down to? Where does Satan roam about looking for whom he may devour? Where does he have only a limited time to ruin and separate as many souls from knowing, loving, and serving their creator as possible? Where, and when, and over whom, does he have any jurisdiction at all? God is the sovereign ruler, He controls every finite and created being that exists within Him, so Satan can only have control over what the sovereign God allows him to. But any that are freed from being slaves to sin are not free to do as they please. Such people are no longer concerned with, or bound by, the laws or inclinations of this world, but are then called "slaves of righteousness" or "slaves of God" and then are living according to His laws (the moral code expounded and lived by the Christ) and are content here if they merely have food and clothing 1 Timothy 6:8. Either way, once freed from being a slave to this world and the sin it is enslaved by, absolute "freedom" or "lawlessness" is not allowable or available to a created being, but rather is held out as a deception that the devil promises one in exchange for a soul's eternal destiny- Not a good trade, by the way. Anyone that says they don't have to conform their lives to the commandments given, and are "freed from the law" because Jesus lived righteously for them, are quite probably deceived, along with all those that don't or will not ever even be shown that obedience to Christ's example is what is necessary to please God (and that can only be done if one is given the opportunity, which is why it states "to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:10).

Are many deceived into believing they are free when they are not really? Yes, but they are not unwillingly deceived. To a certain extent your other thread is correct, sinners choose what they want; and what they want and love more than God is something in this world, and that is what keeps them bound to it and obeying it. They believe they are free when they are really still enslaved. When the world is destroyed, such will be destroyed along with it.

Adam and Eve entered us all into this slavery, and the blindness of it, through their disobedience. We are enmeshed in it and blinded to it and by it, we lust for it and cannot see beyond it unless we be salvaged from it; and will remain slaves to it unless freed from the chains of it. However, were they ever really free? The choice then was still a matter of who they would be a slave to, a just and Loving God or an unjust and vicious natural world; and were they able to make an informed choice, if they didn't really know what He meant when He said they would surely die from their disobedience? God only knows, the rest of us must deal in possibility and probability. But when you read that "through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." it is convenient to automatically think 'oh good' I'm glad he was obedient, so now I'm saved without having to do anything'. But that would be a fatal error. Rather look at it as the narrow, steep, and way of great difficulty. Because, from a natural/carnal mindset it's easy enough to keep following Adam's example, and quite nearly impossible to give up one's life to living Christ's example. Only the elect will be allowed and given that ability. The rest of us stand as much chance as Adam and Eve, and the devil only has control over those God allows him to. So trust that God is in control, and if given the will and ability to, imitate Jesus the Christ's example of living and, if need be, dying.

n*along with the promised destruction of this universe, there is the promise of a new heavens and earth. Those that are taken along are the ones headed for the perfected version of this fallen one we are currently in. Incidentally, this also fits with the scientific theory that the universe is always being crunched and big-banged into existence, along with all that exist within it. "The Big Crunch is one of the theoretical scenarios for the ultimate fate of the universe, in which the metric expansion of space eventually reverses and the universe re-collapses, ultimately causing the cosmic scale factor to reach zero or causing a reformation of the universe starting with another Big Bang." This is just my uneducated guess, but the worlds to come may be many, if not infinite in number.

**
another point to be made about T.U.L.I.P. is that while many misunderstandings crop up about OSAS one must still have the Spirit of Truth to discern what the reality of scripture is. There are a couple of verses that state one cannot have salvation forcibly taken from them, and that those in which salvation is completed cannot forcibly be taken from God's grace. There are a dozen or more stating that the offer of salvation can be neglected, abandoned, shipwrecked, turned away from, rejected, or that one can be deceived out of it Hebrews 2:3. Can salvation be lost? Evidently so, but only by those not given the will, ability, and opportunity to see it to completion. Consider this, if one must be willing to leave, husbands, wives, children, properties, and even his or her "own" life for the sake of the kingdom, what does it take to get to heaven? Would many even choose leave behind this world without a supernatural trust in something better waiting for them? Can anyone get there without being willing to give up everything else this world has to offer? The good news is that there is a way out of the slated destruction of the fallen world and into heaven, the bad news is that, for those that have filled up on and prefer the old wine, a person can't just hope and wish his or her way there.

That was well written. Thank you.

The fact that for me, intellectually at least, proves the fact that one will not lose his salvation, (and not to deny the fact of perseverance of the elect, and its relevance to eternal security), is that the same person that has been regenerated is the elect. I don't see in the scripture any evidence that the elect even can fail to persevere (except for the warnings to persevere), and much to show how they will persevere, including this:

That God has chosen the elect according to his good will and purpose --the elect are chosen as members of the Bride of Christ. There are no substitute members, but only the exact ones he has made from the beginning for that purpose. Not only will he not fail to accomplish whatever he has set out to do, being God, but he has this one specific thing which (not that his Glory isn't the whole cause of creating --it is-- but this is the big thing that is all to his Glory) is the Bride of Christ --his dwelling place.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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That was well written. Thank you.

The fact that for me, intellectually at least, proves the fact that one will not lose his salvation, (and not to deny the fact of perseverance of the elect, and its relevance to eternal security), is that the same person that has been regenerated is the elect. I don't see in the scripture any evidence that the elect even can fail to persevere (except for the warnings to persevere), and much to show how they will persevere, including this:

That God has chosen the elect according to his good will and purpose --the elect are chosen as members of the Bride of Christ. There are no substitute members, but only the exact ones he has made from the beginning for that purpose. Not only will he not fail to accomplish whatever he has set out to do, being God, but he has this one specific thing which (not that his Glory isn't the whole cause of creating --it is-- but this is the big thing that is all to his Glory) the Bride of Christ --his dwelling place.
You're welcome, of course, but I cannot take credit my self or anything that comes through it. If it causes some to look to Christ, then I must thank Him for that. Agreed that salvation truly given and received cannot, and will not, be lost by those in whom it is received and completed. That is not to say I am certain of my own spiritual state or destiny, or that any one else can be intellectually certain of such concerning themselves. Paul does say we must test ourselves, maybe that is ongoing. My OCD has kept me in search of truth, perfection, and certainty, which has led to this understanding which is both beautiful and frightening, but constantly I must remind myself to let go and trust. That is not so easy for some as it is for others.

My own greatest fear is that I have already failed to persevere, and have failed the test, having initially failed to understand the Word and fallen into error, with it only dawning on me after the fact. Which often leads to my thinking I can be no more than someone who warns others. Whether it is all a lack of faith and doubts in my head that have already disqualified me, or it is what keeps me moving and persevering until the end I also cannot say. Stumbling in many ways is admitted and able to be forgiven in the book James, and my only hope that is the case with my own salvation. One's submission to obedience is granted, it cannot be forced.
 
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Mark Quayle

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You're welcome, of course, but I cannot take credit my self or anything that comes through it. If it causes some to look to Christ, then I must thank Him for that. Agreed that salvation truly given and received cannot, and will not, be lost by those in whom it is received and completed. That is not to say I am certain of my own spiritual state or destiny, or that any one else can be intellectually certain of such concerning themselves. Paul does say we must test ourselves, maybe that is ongoing. My OCD has kept me in search of truth, perfection, and certainty, which has led to this understanding which is both beautiful and frightening, but constantly I must remind myself to let go and trust. That is not so easy for some as it is for others.

My own greatest fear is that I have already failed to persevere, and have failed the test, having initially failed to understand the Word and fallen into error, with it only dawning on me after the fact. Which often leads to my thinking I can be no more than someone who warns others. Whether it is all a lack of faith and doubts in my head that have already disqualified me, or it is what keeps me moving and persevering until the end I also cannot say. Stumbling in many ways is admitted and able to be forgiven in the book James, and my only hope that is the case with my own salvation. One's submission to obedience is granted, it cannot be forced.
You say, "...having initially failed to understand the Word and fallen into error...". God knows we don't understand. Not to deny that being "stupid on purpose" doesn't sinfully happen, but understanding will never be complete during this temporal existence. It will never be sufficient for us to know just what is at stake, just what we are doing and what God is doing. We cannot be sure we belong to him, simply by the things we know. Faith is not only an intellectual endeavor.

"What works for me" is the understanding that indeed I cannot achieve it --not even nearly, and that the whole matter is in God's hands, and at least for now, I can tell anybody with inexpressible satisfaction that even if I am fooling myself I am full of admiration for the Judge of all the World who will do what is right. (If he tells me on that day, "I never knew you", no, I'm pretty sure I won't be very happy about it, but for now, yes, I feel like even then I am glad for it).

I am far more confident of the fact that the Creator exists, and that he will accomplish everything he set out to do, and that this is all (every detail, including the motions of the smallest particle of matter or force or spirit) in his hand, and that I am more along for the ride than to generate goodness or truth in and of myself, than I am of trusting my own integrity, will, desire, intelligence or anything else about myself.
 
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