Did Abraham observe the Sabbath day?

[SabbathBlessings]

No one knows exactly WHAT Jesus was writing in the ground. I have heard some good guesses,
But whatever it was, I think He may have been hinting that HE was God become a man.
And as God wrote with His finger on the tablets the Ten Commandments, this God was
now on earth in Jesus again showing how easy it was for Him to again write with His finger.

At any rate this "light of the world" is now the resurrected Christ and the life giving Spirit to live in man.
And He Himself is the SUPPLY to meet the divine DEMAND of God in His people.

What Romans 8:2 says is that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.


It is true that the liberation there is from the slavery to sin.
But what it says is that the mind set on the flesh is at emnity against God.

The mind can be set on the religious flesh striving to keep the law of God.
It CANNOT for one - impossible. And though it may be trying it is actually hostile to God
now at this stage of God's disclosure of who He is - the resurrected Christ as the life giving Spirit.

Because the mind set on the flesh is enmity against God;
for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be.
And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8:7,8)

The Judaizers were zealous for the law of God.
The Judaizers were hostil to the new testament and the apostles.
The Judaizers set their mind on the flesh.
And the sought to ruin the work of Paul in the churches in Galatia and elsewhere.

For sure some of them had believed in Jesus.
But they rebelled against God's new testament economy.
The Judaizers ended up preaching another gospel about another Jesus.
Paul's condemnation of them was strong.

I marvel that you are so quickly removing from Him who has called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel,
Which is not another gospel, only there are some who trouble you and desire to pervert the gospel of Christ.
But if even we or an angel out of heaven should announce to you a gospel beyond that which we have announced to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, now also I say again, If anyone announces to you a gospel beyond that which you have received, let him be accursed.

The New Testament teaches that we have been made dead and to the law and organically joined to Christ that we might bear fruit unto God.

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (Rom. 7:4)

The New Testament teaches that we have beed discharged from the law in order to serve God in newness of spirit.

But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter. (v.6)

Because Paul anticipated that this kind of speaking would appall those who so exalted the Torah, he hastens to add
that the law is not sin.

What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (v.7)

Covetuousness there is used only as one representative example.
To attempt to keep the law automatically causes a contrarian evil nature to rise up and drag you AWAY and DOWN from doing so.
Hence that is the danger of living by the natural mind and setting the mind on the flesh.

But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind; for without the law sin is dead.
And I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

And the commandment, which was unto life, this very commandment was found to me to be unto death.
For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. (vs. 8-11)

Paul said that he and his o-workers had ZERO confidence in the flesh. Their only confidence was in the indwelling
Spirit. This Spirit they had to learn to live in and by.

For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God
and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3:3)

Now excuse me if I am old fashion and don't notice emoji like faces.
I think you mean to communicate happiness. Praise the Lord.
I must emphasize again though God's new testament economy.


In Romans 7 and 8 there are about four usages of the word law.
There is the law of God outside of man making demands on man.
There is the law of the mind AGREEING with that law of God.
There is the law of sin in the fallen body, automatically dragging man down no matter what his mind agrees with.

Then finally there is the law of the Spirit of life - a Person who is stronger than the law of sin and death in the body.

This is brief. I think if you read chapter 7 and 8 very carefully you can decriminate between these different
usages of law.

Ok, I think we have been through this too many times. You brought up some new arguments, some I was never making and some we have been through before. What I seem to be getting from your posts (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we are free from the law and living in Christ means we can break the law and the law referred to is the Ten Commandments that we don't need to keep if we are in Christ and there is no penalty. I do not see scripture teaching this in any capacity or Jesus John 14:15 Mat 7:21-23 I do not see obedience to God as passive or God's law in conflict with God's Spirit, but I do not think we will come to an argument in how we view scripture, so I will leave it as wish you well in seeking Truth to God’s Word. I appreciate the chat.

 

[oikonomia]

Ok, I think we have been through this too many times. You brought up some new arguments, some I was never making and some we have been through before.

To some extent at this point we may be talking pass each other.
I may not recognize well sometimes that you are putting forth some ideas I would.

And to some extent I may be writing for the sake of others who are following along.

What I seem to be getting from your posts (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we are free from the law and living in Christ means we can break the law and the law referred to is the Ten Commandments that we don't need to keep if we are in Christ and there is no penalty.

For sure all Christians must be manifested before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ to give an account.
This is a judgment exclusively for those for whom the problem of eternal seperation from God has been SOLVED.
So the SAVED in Jesus exclusively appear at this judgment.

Many factors come into play when we stand before Christ, the One who lives within us, and we give account of
how we lived SINCE we received salvation.

I would say a major thing the Lord will examine is how much we each have been conformed to His image.
For that is God's purpose in all our Christian life from the time we received justification, redemption, forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:28,29)

There is mercy on that day - if we have been merciful to others.
This you know can be seen in many passages. And some of the best in the strict book of Matthew.

The key is how much in the time we had, and the light we had of His will, was God able to transform us through Christ
to be more LIKE Christ. There will be reward (aside from eternal life). There will also be punishment (temporary aside from eternal perdition0.
There will be consideration that AS we judged others a SIMILAR standard the Lord will apply to us.

His knowledge of our situation is infallible. His understanding is deeper than we can imagine.
Our circumstances, situations, time as a believer, and especially our growing love for one another, all come into play.

Woe to those who thought by being a Christian they had license to be LAWLESS.
Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3:4)
I understand "lawlessness" here to be not under God's government, not submitting to God's administration.

In the new covenant God's throne is the throne of GRACE. To not live by GRACE can become "lawlessness."
To live excreasingly by grace, growing in grace is called in the NT - "godliness."

So serious is Paul's warning that we may be saved YET still be disciplined in the millennium he wrote this TO CHRISTIANS -
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. (Gal. 6:7)
And there are many, many similar passages to believers like this.

If you asked whether this "lawlessness" in the NT simply means breaking the commandments delivered at Mt. Sinai,
I would have to say, the scope of "lawlessness" is probably greater than that now.

Let's say I because of conviction decide this Saturday I must keep the Sabbath.
Surely there are much worse things I could do. Romans 14 says go ahead Christian and regard that day more sacred if you wish.
But if on that day (or any other) I cannot forgive someone, hold a long unforgiving grudge, exchange hurting words with my spouse,
I must confess. I must bring that known sin under the blood of Jesus. If I never do that I may have to give a account to my Lord
for "lawlessness" in that matter. And that regardless of how much "rest" I had on that day.

The law against which the new covenant believer can commit "lawlessness" I believe is the law of Christ, the law of the Spirit of life
in Christ. The scope may include one of the commandments. But its scope is wider for the Christian.

I do not see scripture teaching this in any capacity or Jesus John 14:15 Mat 7:21-23 I do not see obedience to God as passive or God's law in conflict with God's Spirit, but I do not think we will come to an argument in how we view scripture, so I will leave it as wish you well in seeking Truth to God’s Word. I appreciate the chat.

To "SET. . . the mind on the spirit" is not passive.

. . . but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6) not passivity.
Walk by the Spirit. . . (Gal.5:16) not passivity.
Abide in Me and I in you . . . (John 15:4a) not passivity.
Work out your own salvation . . . for it is God who operates in you . . . (Phil. 2:12a) not passivity.

Whenever their heart turns to the Lord . . . (2 Cor. 3:16) not passivity.
stretching forward to the things which are before,. . . (Phil. 2:13) not passivity.
I pursue toward the goal for the prize . . . (Phil. 3:14a) not passivity.
we cry Abba Father . . . (Rom. 8:15) not passivity

exercise your self unto godliness - - - (1 Tim. 4:7a) not passivity.
Flee youthful lust . . . be with those who call on the name of the Lord . . . (2 Tim. 2:22) not passivity
Let us come forward to the throne of grace . . . (Heb. 4:16) not passivity.
Put on the whole armor of God . . .(Eph. 6:10) not passivity.

Now here is where thousands of passages in the OT beome useful.
We under grace do not discard one book of the Hebrew Bible.
Here with the realization that Christ is God imparted into us,
we may explore David's great love for the word and statutes of God in PSALM 119.

Here is where the Song of Songs even is helpful "Draw me and we will come after thee."
Every word is God breathed and profitable for our setting our mind on the human spirit where the Spirit of Christ is.
We may call upon that name of the Lord and draw water from the wells of salvation.
We may call upon Him who is RICH to all who call upon Him.

Not passivity.
Pursuing the Lord Jesus ever turning our heart to Him.
Beholding and relecting Him that we may be transformed into the same image from glory to glory.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

To some extent at this point we may be talking pass each other.
I may not recognize well sometimes that you are putting forth some ideas I would.

And to some extent I may be writing for the sake of others who are following along.

For sure all Christians must be manifested before the judgment seat (bema) of Christ to give an account.
This is a judgment exclusively for those for whom the problem of eternal seperation from God has been SOLVED.
So the SAVED in Jesus exclusively appear at this judgment.

Many factors come into play when we stand before Christ, the One who lives within us, and we give account of
how we lived SINCE we received salvation.

I would say a major thing the Lord will examine is how much we each have been conformed to His image.
For that is God's purpose in all our Christian life from the time we received justification, redemption, forgiveness, and the Holy Spirit.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; (Rom. 8:28,29)

There is mercy on that day - if we have been merciful to others.
This you know can be seen in many passages. And some of the best in the strict book of Matthew.

The key is how much in the time we had, and the light we had of His will, was God able to transform us through Christ
to be more LIKE Christ. There will be reward (aside from eternal life). There will also be punishment (temporary aside from eternal perdition0.
There will be consideration that AS we judged others a SIMILAR standard the Lord will apply to us.

His knowledge of our situation is infallible. His understanding is deeper than we can imagine.
Our circumstances, situations, time as a believer, and especially our growing love for one another, all come into play.

Woe to those who thought by being a Christian they had license to be LAWLESS.
Everyone who practices sin practices lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness. (1 John 3:4)
I understand "lawlessness" here to be not under God's government, not submitting to God's administration.

In the new covenant God's throne is the throne of GRACE. To not live by GRACE can become "lawlessness."
To live excreasingly by grace, growing in grace is called in the NT - "godliness."

So serious is Paul's warning that we may be saved YET still be disciplined in the millennium he wrote this TO CHRISTIANS -
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. (Gal. 6:7)
And there are many, many similar passages to believers like this.

If you asked whether this "lawlessness" in the NT simply means breaking the commandments delivered at Mt. Sinai,
I would have to say, the scope of "lawlessness" is probably greater than that now.

Let's say I because of conviction decide this Saturday I must keep the Sabbath.
Surely there are much worse things I could do. Romans 14 says go ahead Christian and regard that day more sacred if you wish.
But if on that day (or any other) I cannot forgive someone, hold a long unforgiving grudge, exhange hurting words with my spouse,
I must confess. I must bring that known sin under the blood of Jesus. If I never do that I may have to give a account to my Lord
for "lawlessness" in that matter. And that regardless of how much "rest" I had on that day.

So you are okay with the law as long as it does not include the Sabbath commandment? Do you know in all of Romans 14, that you seem to be indicating somehow does away with God's 4th commandment does not include the word "Sabbath" in the entire chapter. Why add that here when Paul didn't. This is not about doing away with the day that God esteemed over all others from the very beginning of time Gen 2:1-3 and continues until all eternity Isaiah 66:22-23. Man is not above God.

The law against which the new covenant believer can commit "lawlessness" I believe is the law of Christ, the law of the Spirit of life
in Christ. The scope may include one of the commandments. But its scope is wider for the Christian.



To "SET. . . the mind on the spirit" is not passive.

. . . but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6) not passivity.
Walk by the Spirit. . . (Gal.5:16) not passivity.
Abide in Me and I in you . . . (John 15:4a) not passivity.
Work out your own salvation for it is God who operates in you . . . (Phil. 2:12a) not passivity.

Whenever their heart turns to the Lord . . . (2 Cor. 3:16) not passivity.
stretching forward to the things which are before,. . . (Phil. 2:13) not passvity.
I pursue toward the goal for the prize . . . (Phil. 3:14a) not passivity.
we cry Abba Father . . . (Rom. 8:15) not passivity

exercise your self unto godliness - - - (1 Tim. 4:7a) not passivity.
Flee youthful lust . . . be with those who call on the name of the Lord . . . (2 Tim. 2:22) not passivity
Let us come forward to the throne of grace . . . (Heb. 4:16) not passivity.
Put on the whole armor of God . . .(Eph. 6:10) not passivity.

Now here is where thousands of passages in the OT beome useful.
We under grace do not discard one book of the Hebrew Bible.
Here with the realization that Christ is God imparted into us,
we may explore David's great love for the word and statutes of God in PSALM 119.

Here is where the Song of Songs even is helpful "Draw me and we will come after thee."
Every word is God breathed and profitable for our setting our mind on the human spirit where the Spirit of Christ is.
We may call upon that name of the Lord and draw water from the wells of salvation.
We may call upon Him who is RICH to all who call upon Him.

Not passivity.
Pursuing the Lord Jesus ever turning our heart to Him.
Beholding and relecting Him that we may be transformed into the same image from glory to glory.

I do not see sin as something abstract, I think it is defined really well in scripture 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 I also do not see the Ten Commandments as multiple choice or optional. James 2:10-12 A commandment is just that- a commandment. Jesus tells us to keep the least of them Mat 5:19 so Paul is not contradicting His Teacher.

Jesus certainly does not take this same view.

Jesus condemned those who follows their rules over the commandments of God quoting right from the unit of Ten. In fact He went so far as to define that as false worship. So if false worship is obeying our rules over the commandments of God, then true worship is keeping God's commandments. Just like He asked John 14:15 Exo 20:6

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

Scripture shows what a saved person looks like and we see false worship according to Jesus as obeying our rules over God's commandments, so true worship is the opposite- obey God the way He asked and scripture shows the fruit of a saved person.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

We are called to worship in spirit and Truth John 4:23-24 and this is what we are told about those who claim they know God, but do not keep His commandments or follow His example 1 John 2:3-5

You admit we are to take on the character of God but when it comes to following what He did, you seem to want to do something different.

Did God keep the Sabbath?
Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God did not need rest- He rested as an example for man to follow as man was made in the image of God Gen 1:26 to follow Him, not to do something different, which is why the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 saith Jesus.

Jesus kept all the commandments including the Sabbath commandment John 15:10, Luke 4:16 again because He is our example to follow 1 John 2:6

All of God's law reflects His character and if we are to take on His character we need to follow His example and obey Him because we trust Him and have faith in what He asks and want to obey because we love Him.

And this obedience leads to righteousness....

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[oikonomia]

So you are okay with the law as long as it does not include the Sabbath commandment?

Now you're being sarcastic?
Romans 14 which I have mentioned a few times, as well as others, should give you freedom in your conscience
to persue Sabbath Day keeping without cynicism that other lovers of Christ do not.

Do you know in all of Romans 14, that you seem to be indicating somehow does away with God's 4th commandment does not include the word "Sabbath" in the entire chapter.

I never said Romans 14 "does away" with the Sabbath. I wrote about Romans 14 speaking of receiving one another with an accomodating
and tolerant attitude. Chapter 15 extends this important point -

That with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God. (Rom. 15:6,7)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Now you're being sarcastic?
Romans 14 which I have mentioned a few times, as well as others, should give you freedom in your conscience
to persue Sabbath Day keeping without cynicism that other lovers of Christ do not.

Where does it say the in Romans 14- the word Sabbath is not in that entire passage. One would have to add it there to make this argument work

I never said Romans 14 "does away" with the Sabbath. I wrote about Romans 14 speaking of receiving one another with an accomodating
and tolerant attitude. Chapter 15 extends this important point -

Romans 14 is about not judging each other, not about being disobedient to God.

That with one accord you may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God. (Rom. 15:6,7)

Amen

 

[oikonomia]

I do not see sin as something abstract, I think it is defined really well in scripture 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 I also do not see the Ten Commandments as multiple choice or optional. James 2:10-12 A commandment is just that- a commandment. Jesus tells us to keep the least of them Mat 5:19 so Paul is not contradicting His Teacher.

I don't think you appreciate enough the lesson of John chapter 8 and the woman who should have been stoned do death, in
obedience to the letter of the Law.

And sinning in thought, inclination, motive, imagination where perhaps only God can see, is not abstract.
Neither is obedience to the teaching of the anointing, and the leading of the Spirit in those very subjective realms "abstract"
to our God.

Jesus certainly does not take this same view.

Jesus condemned those who follows their rules over the commandments of God quoting right from the unit of Ten. In fact He went so far as to define that as false worship. So if false worship is obeying our rules over the commandments of God, then true worship is keeping God's commandments. Just like He asked John 14:15 Exo 20:6

Matthew 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition?

It is true that "traditions" as addendums caused the hypocrisy of the Pharisees to be manifest.
Matthew 15:3 is excellent to show this.
Another stricking example is the hypocrisy the priests condemning God's Son.

Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the praetorium, and it was early morning. And they themselves did not enter into the praetorium, so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the passover. (John 18:28)

But their trying keeping of the law did not help them to see the obvious crime of wanting to kill God's Son.
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill Me? (John 7:19)

Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

I understand your point well. Some of their sinning was from their traditions added along side of the Law.
But you cannot say, that if only because of this the religionists would have welcomed Jesus.

They could not tolerate His "working" on the Sabbath Day.
Jesus told them in spite of this seventh day His Father was STILL working.
And He was healing and imparting saving for the Father's work as well.

And because of this the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He did these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I also am working. (John 5:16,17)

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't think you appreciate enough the lesson of John chapter 8 and the woman who should have been stoned do death, in
obedience to the the letter of the Law.

Death is still wages of sin, even in the NT Romans 6:23 but instead of God casting Judgement when He sees fit, Judgement is on the last day when we will be in two different groups. The saved and the lost. Not sure if this was your response to Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 We have an Advocate with Jesus and when we sin can go directly to Him 1 John 1:9 for forgiveness when there is a change in heart. There is no scripture that says when can live in perpetual sin and be in God's Kingdom. Thats why the law is so important, it shows us we are sick and in need of a Savior. We are told not to cover our sins Proverbs 28:13 we need to face them straight on and while we can't obey on our own, we can through Christ John 14:15-18 but it requires our cooperation.

And sinning in thought, inclination, motive, imagination where perhaps only God can see, is not abstract.
Neither is obedience to the teaching of the anointing, and the leading of the Spirit in those very subjective realms "abstract"
To our God.

It is true that "traditions" as addendums caused the hypocrisy of the Pharisees to be manifest.
Matthew 15:3 is excellent to show this.
Another stricking example is the hypocrisy the priests condemning God's Son.

Then they led Jesus from Caiaphas to the praetorium, and it was early morning. And they themselves did not enter into the praetorium, so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the passover. (John 18:28)

Yes, the Pharisees had lots of hypocrisy, but you seem to be skimming over what Jesus called as false worship. Mat 15:3-9 This is a serious accusation since we are told we must worship in truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24.

But their trying keeping of the law did not help them to see the obvious crime of wanting to kill God's Son.
Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill Me? (John 7:19)

Is that was Jesus is saying here? That they were keeping the law? I am reading the opposite.

They could not tolerate His "working" on the Sabbath Day.
Jesus told them in spite of this seventh day His Father was STILL working.
And He was healing and imparting saving for the Father's work as well.

And because of this the Jews persecuted Jesus and sought to kill Him, because He did these things on the Sabbath.
But Jesus answered them, My Father is working until now, and I also am working. (John 5:16,17)

This is another big subject and many do not understand these verses. Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath commandment He was breaking the sabbath of the Pharisees and they added many of their own laws to the Sabbath commandment.

Jesus was not doing secular work. Doing the ways of God on His holy Sabbath is in no violation of the commandment of God. Isa 58:13

 

[oikonomia]

There is no scripture that says when can live in perpetual sin and be in God's Kingdom.

Could you point out where I wrote such a thing? - Ie - living in perpetual sin we will inherit the kingdom of God.

Thats why the law is so important, it shows us we are sick and in need of a Savior. We are told not to cover our sins Proverbs 28:13 we need to face them straight on and while we can't obey on our own, we can through Christ John 14:15-18 but it requires our cooperation.

Could you point out where I wrote anything like living the Christian life does not require the Christian's cooperation?

Yes, the Pharisees had lots of hypocrisy, but you seem to be skimming over what Jesus called as false worship.

Points not addressed in detail by me may not mean "skimming over" as if they are not important.

Mat 15:3-9 This is a serious accusation since we are told we must worship in truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24.

Concerning your point with Matt. 15:3-9 I believe I agreed that this was one good example of many
where religious tradition added to the commandments became a source of their offending God's law.

I think I also indicated the similar seriousness of them adhering to the letter of the law while all the while
plotting to kill the Lord Jesus.

In John 4:23-24 "worship" there is not what most think when they imagine "worship."
This "worship" is drinking to quench and satisfy one's innermost thirst for divine life.

To illustrate, if one is changing a tire on an automobile while inwardly enjoying drinking of the Spirit,
perhaps whispering His name - "Lord Jesus. Lord Jesus" or calling to the Father "Abba Father" that is
true worship. That is worshipping the Father in the human spirit where the Holy Spirit dwells.

"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:7)

Locating, finding where in your being Christ's presence is and turning your heart
to enjoy Him, that is the worship the Father seeks - in spirit and in truthfulness.

 

[oikonomia]

Is that was Jesus is saying here? That they were keeping the law? I am reading the opposite.

You will have to point out to me which words I wrote suggesting John 4:23 (?) was Jesus
directing someone to keeping the law.

He was directing the thirsty woman to come to Him to drink of the life He can give.
She was such a sinner because she was just so thirsty for life and enjoyment.

In Jeremiah 2:13 God says His people committed two sins.
1.) Forsaking Him as the fountain of living water.
2.) Vainly replacing Him with broken cisterns which could not contain this water.

For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters,
To hew out for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns, Which hold no water. (Jer. 2:13)

This is another big subject and many do not understand these verses. Jesus was not breaking the Sabbath commandment He was breaking the sabbath of the Pharisees and they added many of their own laws to the Sabbath commandment.

I don't think this works.
He went out of His way to do things unto His Father for man, on that sacred day.

He did similarly with the God ordained diet.
He declares all foods clean and point them rather to what proceeds out of the heart and speaking mouth that defiles.

Because it does not enter into his heart, but into the stomach,
and goes out into the drain? (In saying this, He made all foods clean.) (Mark 7:29)

Check Leviticus and you'll notice not ALL foods were clean by God's COMMANDMENTS.

So this was not Jesus going against a amendation - a added ritual tradition.
This was Jesus showing that He has come and pronounces many things which transcended the Sinai law.

 

[oikonomia]

Jesus was not doing secular work. Doing the ways of God on His holy Sabbath is in no violation of the commandment of God. Isa 58:13

I enjoyed Isaiah 58:13. I do not know what you mean by Jesus was doing a secular work.

In this New Testament age Tuesday afternoon at 3:45 pm is very holy to God. He wants man to live in the Holy Spirit.
In the church age, Thursday night 6:13 pm is also very holy to God. He expects sons of God to living in the Holy Spirit.
There is no time on the calender or clock where the new covenant people should not sanctify that time for living holily through Him.
Saturday, Monday, and Wednesday at sundown as well as 13 minutes before sunrise, Jesus wants us to be sanctified as that
is a special moment. Every moment in time with Him is special.

One believes that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables. (Rom. 14:2)
For the normal church life we must be accomodating, realizing some saints will practice rules concerning diet.

One judges one day above another; another judges every day alike. Let each be fully persuaded in his own mind. (v. 5)
For a normal church life experience love must be accomodating. This regarding a day special or not is not immoral.

I am happy you pointed to a verse like Isaiah 58:13.
By no means do we have to wait until the New Testament for God to point out
the law keeping Jews could be transgressing in thier adherence to ritual.

For example:

For all these things My hand has made, / And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah. / But to this kind of man will I look, to him who is poor / And of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word.

IHe who kills an ox is like him who slays a man; / He who sacrifices a lamb, like him who breaks a dog’s neck; / He who offers a meal offering is like him who offers the blood of swine; / He who burns incense is like him who blesses an idol. / As surely as they have chosen their own ways, / And their soul delights in their abominations; (Isa. 66:2,3)

Could you believe it?
The offering of the ox according to Leviticus could be an abomination to Yahweh.
The offering of a lamb according to Leviticus could be no better than breaking a ferral dog's neck.
The lighting of incense as instructed by the Torah could degrad into being like blessing an idol.

Before the incarnation of Christ, we have many examples where thier keeping the instructions of the law
was corrupted, degraded, and contrary to the righteous requirement of God.

 

[oikonomia]

Scripture shows what a saved person looks like and we see false worship according to Jesus as obeying our rules over God's commandments, so true worship is the opposite- obey God the way He asked and scripture shows the fruit of a saved person.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

This passage shows that during the great tribulation two classes of people will resist the Antichrist - the sovereignly sealed Jews "they that keep the commandments of God" and the Christians "and the faith of Jesus."

Chapter 7 revealed how 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes is sealed and protected during the great tribulation.
And those Christians not raptured pre-tribulation because of not watching have to pass through that time to be harvested at the
end of the great tribulation.

Then we have a window into those terrible times (Rev. 12:13-18, and ch. 13, 14:6-20) and on earth are especially targets of Antichrist's persecution. Those who keep the commandments of God and those who have the Christian faith in, and testimony of Jesus.

That is two groups who are set aside as "saints". Two groups of monotheistic peoples under the Devil's desire to exterminate.
Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

The other passage revealing the same two preserved peoples through the great tribulation is Revelation 12:17.
And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

God will preserve some Jews who do not break the commandment to have another God besides Yahweh.
At the very end they will turn to the faith of Jesus when He comes on the clouds dramatically to fight for Israel.
Their preservation is shown by their sealing before the troubled times of Antichrist commence (Rev. 7:1-8)

Some believe the "saints" in the two passages is limited to those with Christian faith.
I think if we were not told that God intends to preserve out of His merciful sovereignty 144,000 of the twelve tribes (Rev. 7:1-8)
I might go long with this. But I believe we are being shown SOME Jews are positioned as "holy" until they repent seeing the Messiah
was really Jesus.

If it was intended that only Christians were being called saints, I think it would have been worded differently.
First it would mention that they have the faith or the testimony of Jesus and THEN that they keep the commandments of God.
Pay attention to the order of the wording.

. . . the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)
. . . make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus. (Rev. 12:17)

 

[oikonomia]

Did God keep the Sabbath?
Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

God did not need rest- He rested as an example for man to follow as man was made in the image of God Gen 1:26 to follow Him, not to do something different, which is why the Sabbath was made for man Mark 2:27 saith Jesus.

In light of the whole rest of the Bible, the rest of God has to do with man having two things - the image of God and exercising the dominion of God. This is according to His creation of man on the sixth day. Man was created to express God. Man was created to have dominion on behalf of God, especially over His enemy. (Genesis 1:26,27, Psalm 8:1,2)

For this reason God had no rest until Joshua led the Israelites to conquer His enemies in the land of Canaan.

For if Joshua had brought them into rest, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things.
So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (Hebrews 4:8,9)

In light of the whole Bible this matter of God's rest, God's Sabbath, has a movable and progressive manifestation.

Ie.
1.) He rested when He had (though briefly) Adam there to express God and reign for God.
2.) He further had Sabbath whenever the Israelites expressed God's glory and ruled over God's enemies.
3.) For certain the Son of God really expressed God in a man and had dominion over Satan, his hosts.
Then He said to come unto Him (Jesus) and He would give us rest.
4.) The normal church life is a Sabbath rest where Christ is expressed and God's enemies are beneath the feet of the church.
5.) The millinnial kingdom is a further manifestation of this rest, this Sabbath. That is why Hebrews says there remains a Sabbath rest.
6.) And the ultimate Sabbath rest in eternity is when in the New Jerusalem God is fully expressed in His people and the sons of
God reign forever and ever.

So the original plan of man being created for God's image (expression) and reign for God's kingdom (dominion)
are the essence of God acheiving His eternal purpose and man coming into his reason for existence.

I have very briefly tried to deepen your understanding of that it means for God and man to have rest, to have the Sabbath.
I think more than 6 points could be seen - God and His people resting at the achievement of His purpose - image and dominion.

Jesus kept all the commandments including the Sabbath commandment John 15:10, Luke 4:16 again because He is our example to follow 1 John 2:6

According to what I concisely explained above, Jesus WAS God's resting. For the Son of God was God manifest in the flesh.
And He had total dominion over the creeping hosts of God's enemies, the demons and evil angels and Satan himself.
The more Christ is wrought into man the more REST God and man have.

He showed them that though they practiced7th day rest, God had no rest because they didn't express God or reign through God
over His enemies. He showed them, often to their enragement, that He manifested God and had dominion over the Satanic hosts in everyway.

So healing on the Sabbath Day seemed to them violation of the law.
Actually, He was showing them that in Him God rested because God had what He intended man to be.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This passage shows that during the great tribulation two classes of people will resist the Antichrist - the sovereignly sealed Jews "they that keep the commandments of God" and the Christians "and the faith of Jesus."

Chapter 7 revealed how 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes is sealed and protected during the great tribulation.
And those Christians not raptured pre-tribulation because of not watching have to pass through that time to be harvested at the
end of the great tribulation.

No doubt these are the people and characteristics of who overcome until the end. What would be unwise is to think that it’s only for “those people” when keeping God’s commandments is a theme throughout God’s Word as this shows you have ultimate faith Rom 3:31 in Him to do what He asks and it is love to God. 1 John 5:3

If we do not make it until the tribulation and once we die that will be the end of our probation and we will not be judged any differently James 2:10-12 than those judged at the tribulation. There is no scripture thats says the saints will be raptured away during the tribulation. Just like during the time of the trial of the wilderness God saved His people through tribulation, not from it.

There is clear scripture when Jesus Comes all eyes will see Him and His saints will meet Him in the clouds. Revelation 1:7 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Then we have a window into those terrible times (Rev. 12:13-18, and ch. 13, 14:6-20) and on earth are especially targets of Antichrist's persecution. Those who keep the commandments of God and those who have the Christian faith in, and testimony of Jesus.

That is two groups who are set aside as "saints". Two groups of monotheistic peoples under the Devil's desire to exterminate.
Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. (Rev. 14:12)

The other passage revealing the same two preserved peoples through the great tribulation is Revelation 12:17.
And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.

No doubt there will be a war against God’s people who keep His commandments and God defined His commandments right in the Ten Exo 20:6. We already see the war against God’s commandment keeping people, which are only a remnant (small remainder of the original)

God will preserve some Jews who do not break the commandment to have another God besides Yahweh.
At the very end they will turn to the faith of Jesus when He comes on the clouds dramatically to fight for Israel.
Their preservation is shown by their sealing before the troubled times of Antichrist commence (Rev. 7:1-8)

Jesus is not coming just for the Jews- He is only coming back once for all of His people. In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile, nor male or female just those grafted in through faith. Gal 3:26-28 God has one people and God’s people keep God’s commandments and faith in Jesus Rev 14:12

Some believe the "saints" in the two passages is limited to those with Christian faith.

The saints are God’s saved people. One God, one people, one salvation.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

In light of the whole rest of the Bible, the rest of God has to do with man having two things - the image of God and exercising the dominion of God.

Man does not have or ever had dominion of God. God gave man the dominion of earth until man disobeyed God and lost it to whom he listened to- the devil. The devil now has dominion of earth, but Jesus is going to come to save His people from sin Mat 1:21 not in them.

This is according to His creation of man on the sixth day. Man was created to express God. Man was created to have dominion on behalf of God, especially over His enemy. (Genesis 1:26,27, Psalm 8:1,2)

We do not need to guess why God rested on the seventh day, because He tells us.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

God worked six days Gen and rested on the seventh day Genesis 2:1-3. God created man on the six-day Gen 1:26 right before the first Sabbath Gen 2:1-3 that Jesus said man was made for Mark 2:27- Man came first than the Sabbath. God made the Sabbath for us. The Sabbath is a memorial to His Creation and everything He made for us without us. The Sabbath shows His creative and sanctifying powers and when we keep the Sabbath the way God told us to, it shows we are worshipping the one true God. The God of Creation Exo 20:11, which is the same God of Judgement Rev 14:7

God worked six days and rested the seventh day and commanded man this exact cycle- work six days and rest on the seventh day because we are made in His image to follow Him.

Exo 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

We are made to follow God, not to do our own thing. Doing our own thing is how our first parents were separated by God in the first place. Listening to the “other spirit” who to this day has dominion over the earth and deceives the whole world. The only way we stay grounded is through God’s Word- it is to be a light to our path Psa 119:105 and that path is narrow that few find. Mat 7:13 because man wants to their will over listening to every Word of God. Mat 4:4

For this reason God had no rest until Joshua led the Israelites to conquer His enemies in the land of Canaan.

Does this verse say that- God had no rest? Or does it say that the Israelites did not receive the rest in Christ. These are two different things.

For if Joshua had brought them into rest, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things.
So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. (Hebrews 4:8,9)

In light of the whole Bible this matter of God's rest, God's Sabbath, has a movable and progressive manifestation.

I will address Hebrews 4:8 below with Hebrews 4:9

I see you are adopting the popular belief typically used by non-Sabbath keepers and this theory operates from several faulty premises I will show you through God’s Word.

1. Your version is showing you can edit one of God's finger-written commandments and we are told not to edit any of His commandments Deut 4:2
2. No one can change the Sabbath commandment except God and God doesn't. God blessed the Sabbath day Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:8-11 and man cannot reverse something God blessed Num 23:20 so you would need a thus saith the Lord to edit one of God’s commandments.
3. This version is incompatible with God's Word- turning the Sabbath day into something “ambiguous” as we see God’s people keeping the Sabbath rest according to the commandment Luke 23:56 not something different and the apostles keeping every Sabbath day long after the cross and our Lord says the Sabbath continues for His saints- gathering before the Lord for worship every Sabbath for eternity Isaiah 66:22-23
4. God gave us a commandment to obey Exo 20:8-11 your version is God doing something for us so basically turns the Sabbath commandment into Jesus being a day or commanding Himself something instead of us, so I can see how people with itching ears would find this appealing, but it is not grounded in Truth or in every Word of God Mat 4:4
5. Lastly, the mistake here is assuming every time we see the word “rest” it means the Sabbath- God defined the Sabbath rest as being on the seventh day Exo 20:10 so anything different than that is in direct conflict with every Word. There is rest Christ gives and there is the seventh day Sabbath rest. Context dictates which rest it referring to, not what we want it be.

1.) He rested when He had (though briefly) Adam there to express God and reign for God.

Do you have a Text that says this?

2.) He further had Sabbath whenever the Israelites expressed God's glory and ruled over God's enemies.

Text please. The Sabbath is the "seventh day" Exo 20:10 not whenever the Israelites expressed God's glory and ruled over God's enemies.

3.) For certain the Son of God really expressed God in a man and had dominion over Satan, his hosts.

Are you referring to when Jesus came the first time?

Then He said to come unto Him (Jesus) and He would give us rest.

Yes God gives rest He is not rest. God is the Creator- not creation.

4.) The normal church life is a Sabbath rest where Christ is expressed and God's enemies are beneath the feet of the church.

Text please

5.) The millinnial kingdom is a further manifestation of this rest, this Sabbath. That is why Hebrews says there remains a Sabbath rest.

The rest in Hebrews 4:9 is referring to the seventh day Sabbath rest. God defined what this is in His spoken and written Word and its not wise imho to countermand God's every Word.

Hebrews 4:9 is referring to the Sabbath-rest which remains for God's people and the rest in this verse literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

The rest in verse 8 is not the word for the seventh day Sabbath rest, this is the definition of that rest- nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath rest as we see in verse 9.

katapausis: rest
Original Word: κατάπαυσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: katapausis
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap'-ow-sis)
Definition: rest
Usage: (in the Old Testament of the rest attained by the settlement in Canaan), resting, rest, dwelling, habitation.

Another day was spoken about because the Israelites delayed entering into their rest into Canaan due to their disobedience. This has nothing to do with the Sabbath being changed then or later in Hebrews- Hebrews references Joshua as an example of why the Israelites did not receive their rest and is a warning to not follow their example of disobedience Hebrews 4:6 Hebrews 4:11 because those who are disobedient to God do not enter in Christ's rest. What did the Israelites disobey in the wilderness? The Sabbath among other things Eze 20:13, Eze 20:21 so changing the Sabbath into something other than what God defined it as- on the seventh day Exo 20:10 Gen 2:1-3 Hebrews 4:4 is another clever deception that leads people to break one of God's commandments. God people keeps God's commandments Rev 14:12 the unedited version just the way God wrote and God spoke Exo 20:8-11 and God's people lives by every Word Mat 4:4

There are two rests being referred to in Hebrews 4, not one and to enter His rest we must ALSO cease from our works, just as God did Hebrews 4:10 and God rested (ceased working) on the seventh day Hebrews 4:4 Gen 2:1-3, Exodus 20:11

This passage is a difficult one and one I have studied for a long time. I offered to go verse by verse with you, but if you want to use the popular secular version, we have free will, but we are only sanctified by the Truth to God's Word John 17:17 and all of God's commandments are founded on Truth Psa 119:151 and cannot be edited by man because man is not above God. God did not leave it up to man to write His holy commandments- they are divinely written by God, spoken by God and we are to live by every Word.

6.) And the ultimate Sabbath rest in eternity is when in the New Jerusalem God is fully expressed in His people and the sons of
God reign forever and ever.

In God’s heavenly Kingdom there is only rest because no one is in rebellion to Him, which is what the passage of Hebrews 3 and 4 is warning us about. And sadly, the interpretation you are trying to insert that we do not need to keep the Sabbath day the way God asked is exactly the warning in these passages.

In God's rest there is only peace because there is no rebellion which is why there is a daily plea to hear His voice and not be in rebellion which is disobedience to God. Heb 3:7-8 Hebrews 3:15, Heb 4:7 Hebrews 95:7-8

See there is no rebellion if we obey God, just peace.

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God- God wrote it God spoke it and God's people keep God's commandments.

So the original plan of man being created for God's image (expression) and reign for God's kingdom (dominion)
are the essence of God acheiving His eternal purpose and man coming into his reason for existence.

Text please

I have very briefly tried to deepen your understanding of that it means for God and man to have rest, to have the Sabbath.

Sorry, all I see is your words not God's. We are told if it does not speak from God's Word its danger Isaiah 8:20

According to what I concisely explained above, Jesus WAS God's resting.

Jesus is not rest, or the Sabbath commandment or a day. Please provide a Text that says this. Jesus is the Creator, not the creation.

He showed them that though they practiced7th day rest, God had no rest because they didn't express God or reign through God
over His enemies. He showed them, often to their enragement, that He manifested God and had dominion over the Satanic hosts in everyway.

I see a lot of your words here which is not the same as God's Word.

So healing on the Sabbath Day seemed to them violation of the law.

Taken out of context and nothing to do with the passage of Hebrews 4. This was an accusation against Jesus about Sabbath keeping because the Pharisees had their own version of the sabbath and Jesus violated their sabbath, not the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. Jesus kept all of the commandments including the Sabbath and He is our example to follow. John 15:10 Luke 4:16 1 John 2:6

Actually, He was showing them that in Him God rested because God had what He intended man to be.

I see a lot of your words here and not scripture. Forgive me if I stick to the plain Word of God because that is what saves, not following man leading people away from disobeying God the way He asked. I am going to stick by every Word.

 

[oikonomia]

No doubt these are the people and characteristics of who overcame until the end.

I will this reply now to what I think you mean, if I have a comment, question, or reply.
This sounds like a reference to Matt. 24:12 - But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved.

What would be unwise is to think that it’s only for “those people” when keeping God’s commandments is a theme throughout God’s Word as this shows you have ultimate faith Rom 3:31 in Him to do what He asks and it is love to God. 1 John 5:3

I am not sure exactly what you mean. I'll have to think on it. And I owe GDL some more fellowship on a request I have yet to reply to.
I am often not sure what your thinking about the significance of Romans 3:31 is in this discussion.

First John 5:3- For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
I suppose you are using this passage to say the audience of John's epistle were under the OT law.
I aready wrote something about the none burdensome inner anointing of the Spirit communication the Lord Jesus's commands.

They are:
1.) Too deep and ever penetrating on what I call a "quantum" level of regulation over our soul. Many beyond human utterance
but not beyond intuitive sense of what will bring "life and peace" and what of disobeyed will reveal a sense of spiritual death.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6)
And the peace of God, which surpasses every man’s understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

2.) His inward commands always come with the supply of grace and empowering to go the way He says to go.
So John says "and His commands are not burdensome".
When the legalist among the early churches sought to keep the Gentiles believers under the law it was called
burdensome.

Therefore why are you now testing God by placing a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Acts 15:10)

As Paul also had to publically reprimanded the elder apostle Peter -

But when I saw that they were not walking in a straightforward way in relation to the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like the Jews? (Gal. 2:14)

Jesus taught that to take His yoke was to find rest unto our souls.

Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. (Matt. 11:28-30)

If we assume "easy" means we can be unrighteous we do not understand the power of the grace of Christ.

You therefore, my child, be empowered in the grace which is in Christ Jesus; (2 Tim. 2:1)
Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength. (Eph. 6:10)
But by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me. (1 Cor. 15:10)

If we do not make it until the tribulation and once we die that will be the end of our probation and we will not be judged any differently James 2:10-12 than those during the tribulation.

I believe I indicated that we all must be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ.
"We all" in 2 Cor, 5:10 would mean -
All who died in Christ before His second coming.
All who are living on the earth at the time of that second coming.
All who are rewarded with pre-great tribulation rapture for being aware of His coming when they least expected.
All who did not live like He could come at any time, who learn the hard lesson of going through the great tribulation.

All who are saved from eternal perdition must appear before His judgment seat to determine, not their eternal destiny,
but their reward or remedial discipline during the thousand year millennial kingdom.

I am not sure what you meant by "probation".
And I have to think a little more (maybe more than a little) about the preserved remnant who eventually are in Christ from
the sealed 144,000 from the twelve tribes.

We are now touching on some finer points of eschatology.

There is no scripture thats says the saints will be raptured away during the tribulation.

Whether "during" or "at the end" may be arguable.
However, we definitely see some taken before the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
And we see that is a minority. And then the majority taken at the close of the great tribulation.

And all must appear before His judgment seat in the air somewhere near the earth, probably in a cloudy pavillion of some supernatural kind.
There it will be determined what the believers will receive during the millennial kingdom.

I no longer worry about how Jesus could judge so many millions of people one at a time.
He is God-man. He could do everyone instantaneously at one time with no difficulty.

A technicality has caused me to lose one of your comments.

There is clear scripture when Jesus Comes all eyes will see Him and His saints will meet Him in the clouds. Revelation 1:7 1 Thessalonians 4:17

It is clear.
It is clear also to many of us that this public, glorious manifestation over the Holy Land, is not the first rapture.
The first secretive rapture as a reward is to those who live moment to moment as if He could come when we least expect Him.
I wrote much on this on a recent thread on rapture.

I may not say more than this on that now. Except realize that that Lord Jesus can come suddenly for to snatch
away the watching (walking in the Spirit) at any moment now. In the past many though they died before these days nonetheless
learned to live watching as if He could come on them any moment.

They will not be disappointed. They are the overcomers taken from the grave in resurrection and rapture as the manchild in Rev. 12.
And plenty of passages reveal a remnant will be raptured alive just before the great tribulation.

And He answered and said, Elijah indeed is coming and will restore all things;
But I say to you that Elijah has already come; and they did not recognize him, but did with him the things they wished. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them. Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them concerning John the Baptist.

Our Father is extremely wise. It goes without saying.
And it would not be too much to say God can be "sneaky" also.

So what we are told about the end times is also a test of our obedience.
We are called to the obedience of faith.

No doubt there will be a war against God’s people who keep His commandments and God defined His commandments right in the Ten Exo 20:6.

When Revelation 12 and 14 speak of those who keep the commandments of God we should not think they are self justified for keeping
the law. (Gal. 2:16).

At the end times the world will be strongly compelled to worship a man sitting in the restored temple in Jerusalem,
strengthened evilly by Satan, proclaiming himself to be God. And those believers in Jesus rudely awaken by the sudden
taking of many around the world of their Christian brothers are standing desperately against this preasure.
Though it will mean for many imprisonment, death, inability to buy or sell basic necessitities of life - terrible heat of persecution.

I do not believe I understand everything of those days. For when God gives prophesy it is usually only a tip of the iceberg.
He sees how His people will handle what He has shown. Prophecy is a test to obedience.

The first century Jews thought Elijah would come before the kingdom of God came.
Jesus said in essence John the Baptist, he was as much Elijah as was sent to them. He tested them
to how they responded to THAT one coming in the spirit of Elijah. Did they pass or fail THAT "Elijah"?

Now some of my sequencing may have gotten not the way I intended because of technical things as I reply to this long post.
So I stop here and hope my replies are intelligible though some paragraphs might be out of sequence lately.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I will this reply now to what I think you mean, if I have a comment, question, or reply.
This sounds like a reference to Matt. 24:12 - But he who has endured to the end, this one shall be saved.


I am not sure exactly what you mean. I'll have to think on it. And I owe GDL some more fellowship on a request I have yet to reply to.
I am often not sure what your thinking about the significance of Romans 3:31 is in this discussion.

First John 5:3- For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
I suppose you are using this passage to say the audience of John's epistle were under the OT law.
I aready wrote something about the none burdensome inner anointing of the Spirit communication the Lord Jesus's commands.

They are:
1.) Too deep and ever penetrating on what I call a "quantum" level of regulation over our soul. Many beyond human utterance
but not beyond intuitive sense of what will bring "life and peace" and what of disobeyed will reveal a sense of spiritual death.

For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace. (Rom. 8:6)
And the peace of God, which surpasses every man’s understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 4:7)

2.) His inward commands always come with the supply of grace and empowering to go the way He says to go.
So John says "and His commands are not burdensome".
When the legalist among the early churches sought to keep the Gentiles believers under the law it was called
burdensome.

Therefore why are you now testing God by placing a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? (Acts 15:10)

As Paul also had to ublically reprimand the elder apostle Peter -

But when I saw that they were not walking in a straightforward way in relation to the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like the Jews? (Gal. 2:14)

Jesus taught that to take His yoke was to find rest unto our souls.

Come to Me all who toil and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light. (Matt. 11:28-30)

If we assume "easy" means we can be unrighteous we do not understand the power of the grace of Christ.

You therefore, my child, be empowered in the grace which is in Christ Jesus; (2 Tim. 2:1)
Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength. (Eph. 6:10)
But by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me. (1 Cor. 15:10)

I believe I indicated that we all must be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ.
"We all" in 2 Cor, 5:10 would mean -
All who died in Christ before His second coming.
All who are living on the earth at the time of that second coming.
All who are rewarded with pre-great tribulation rapture for being aware of His coming when they least expected.
All who did not live like He could come at any time, who learn the hard lesson of going through the great tribulation.

All who are saved from eternal perdition must appear before His judgment seat to determine, not their eternal destiny,
but their reward or remedial discipline during the thousand year millennial kingdom.

I am not sure what you meant by "probation".
And I have to think a little more (maybe more than a little) about the preserved remnant who eventually are in Christ from
the sealed 144,000 from the twelve tribes.

We are now touching on some finer points of eschatology.

Whether "during" or "at the end" may be arguable.
However, we definitely see some taken before the 3.5 years of the great tribulation.
And we see that is a minority. And then the majority taken at the close of the great tribulation.

And all must appear before His judgment seat in the air somewhere near the earth, probably in a cloudy pavillion of some supernatural kind.
There it will be determined what the believers will receive during the millennial kingdom.

I no longer worry about how Jesus could judge so many millions of people one at a time.
He is God-man. He could do everyone instantaneously at one time with no difficulty.

A technicality has caused me to lose one of your comments.

It is clear.
It is clear also to many of us that this public, glorious manifestation over the Holy Land, is not the first rapture.
The first secretive rapture as a reward is to those who live moment to moment as if He could come when we least expect Him.
I wrote much on this on a recent thread on rapture.

I may not say more than this on that now. Except realize that that Lord Jesus can come suddenly for to snatch
away the watching (walking in the Spirit) at any moment now. In the past many though they died before these days nonetheless
learned to live watching as if He could come on them any moment.

They will not be disappointed. They are the overcomers taken from the grave in resurrection and rapture as the manchild in Rev. 12.
And plenty of passages reveal a remnant will be raptured alive just before the great tribulation.

And He answered and said, Elijah indeed is coming and will restore all things;
But I say to you that Elijah has already come; and they did not recognize him, but did with him the things they wished. So also the Son of Man is about to suffer by them. Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them concerning John the Baptist.

Our Father is extremely wise. It goes without saying.
And it would not be too much to say God can be "sneaky" also.

So what we are told about the end times is also a test of our obedience.
We are called to the obedience of faith.

When Revelation 12 and 14 speak of those who keep the commandments of God we should not think they are self justified for keeping
the law. (Gal. 2:16).

At the end times the world will be strongly compelled to worship a man sitting in the restored temple in Jerusalem,
strengthened evilly by Satan, proclaiming himself to be God. And those believers in Jesus rudely awaken by the sudden
taking of many around the world of their Christian brothers are standing desperately against this preasure.
Though it will mean for many imprisonment, death, inability to buy or sell basic necessitities of life - terrible heat of persecution.

I do not believe I understand everything of those days. For when God gives prophesy it is usually only a tip of the iceberg.
He sees how His people will handle what He has shown. Prophecy is a test to obedience.

The first century Jews thought Elijah would come before the kingdom of God came.
Jesus said in essence John the Baptist, he was as much Elijah as was sent to them. He tested them
to how they responded to THAT one coming in the spirit of Elijah. Did they pass or fail THAT "Elijah"?

Now some of my sequencing has gotten not the way I intended because of technical things as I reply to this long post.
So I stop here and hope my replies are intelligible though some paragraphs might be out of sequence at the end.

Like I said previously I think we are too far apart in our beliefs. `1 John 5:3 is love to God plain and simple. The Ten Commandments are not just for OT people or "other people" as Jesus teaches Matthew 15:3-9. Matthew 19:17-19, Mat 5:19-30, John 15:10. Luke 4:16, 1 John 2:6 because it is what defines sin Romans 7:7 and what we will be judged by James 2:10-12 and shows will be kept until the Second Coming of Jesus for God's people Rev 22:14. This is one of the most dangerous teachings that we do not need to keep the law that defines sin. No law, no sin, no death and no need for a Savior and all are lost. The devils perfect deception 1 John 3:8

 

[oikonomia]

Man does not have or ever had dominion of God.

Did I write "dominion of God"?
"Let them have dominion over . . . " is God assigning man to reign on His behalf as man expesses God's image.

I have not the time to respond to every point.

God gave man the dominion of earth until man disobeyed God and lost it to whom he listened to- the devil. The devil now has dominion of earth, but Jesus is going to come to save His people from sin Mat 1:21 not in them.

If you recall, I used the word "temporarily" (or "temporary") because Adam soon lost His ordination through disobedience.
God RESTED on the seventh day because He achieved man in His image and exercising dominion on His behalf.

Adam lost this and the rest of the Bible is about the recovery of God's purpose with man.
This has to be brief now. Brevity often invites criticism "But you left out . . . But you did not mention . . . " "But you overlook . . . "

It is not a matter of "guessing" about the deeper meaning of the 7th day Sabbath.
It is about taking into account the what the whole revelation of the Bible reveals.

I have to curtail indepth further fellowship this morning.
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Did I write "dominion of God"?

Here's the quote

In light of the whole rest of the Bible, the rest of God has to do with man having two things - the image of God and exercising the dominion of God.

Perhaps you meant something else, but that's how I took it.

"Let them have dominion" is God assigning man to reign on His behalf as man expesses God's image.

Man had dominion of the earth until they lost it by listening to the "other spirit" instead of obeying God the way He asks. This same scenerio is playing out again....

I have not the time to respond to every point.

If you recall, I used the word "temporarily" (or "temporary") because Adam soon lost His ordination through disobedience.
God RESTED on the seventh day because He achieved man in His image and exercising dominion on His behalf.

Thats not why God said He rested on the seventh day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Adam lost this and the rest of the Bible is about the recovery of God's purpose with man.
This has to be brief now. Brevity often invites criticism "But you left out . . . But you did not mention . . . " "But you overlook . . . "

I'm not trying to be critical- I think we need to be very careful when it comes to God's Word- its easy to think our opinions are equal to His Word, but they are not. When God defines something for us, we should not try to re-define it, especially when its a commandment that God so clearly wrote.

It is not a matter of "guessing" about the deeper meaning of the 7th day Sabbath.
It is about taking into account the what the whole revelation of the Bible reveals.

It's best to allow the plain Word of God to speak for itself especially when it has to do with one of God's holy commandments.

The Sabbath is a commandment that God personally wrote and spoke. It is the day to keep holy Exo 20:8- God gives us 6 days to get all our work and labor done Exo 20:9 but only asks for one day back to keep holy- the seventh day Exo 20:10 the day we are to honor or God on His holy day Isa 58:13 a day for sanctifying Eze 20:12 because man cannot sanctify themselves, only God can. So we do not have to guess what the Sabbath is meant for- Jesus told us, it is made for mankind, to spend time with God and for worship Isa 66:23. The bible is filled with examples on how to do this from Jesus and His apostles who all kept God's commandments and repeatedly tells us to.

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit.

Thank you and you too!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

No law, no sin, no death and no need for a Savior and all are lost. The devils perfect deception 1 John 3:8

AND no need for grace...

 

[oikonomia]

Here's the quote

Perhaps you meant something else, but that's how I took it.


Man had dominion of the earth until they lost it by listening to the "other spirit" instead of obeying God the way He asks. This same scenerio is playing out again....

"I would have been clearer to you to write "dominion FOR God."
Dominion for God on behalf of God never means "without" God. Quite the contary.
Neither does express the invisible God according to His image and likeness neither means without God.

Hebrews expresses this purpose of God by comparing Adam (who failed) with Jesus (who is normal as a man through whom God is expressed)

For it was not to angels that He subjected the coming inhabited earth, concerning which we speak.
But one has solemnly testified somewhere, saying, “What is man, that You bring him to mind? Or the son of man, that You care for him?
You have made Him a little inferior to the angels; You have crowned Him with glory and honor and have set Him over the works of Your hands; You have subjected all things under His feet.” For in subjecting all things to Him, He left nothing unsubject to Him.

He is quoting Psalm 8 about the creation of man and God's purpose for it.
Then the writer speaks of how as Adam lost Christ has overcome to recover.

But now we do not yet see all things subjected to Him,
But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death,
crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything.
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. (vs. 8c-10)

Thats not why God said He rested on the seventh day.

Yes it is. But this understanding is in light of the much of the rest of the Bible.
He was satisfied.
The one needed thing was for Adam to eat of the tree of life.
He was placed in the garden to guard it. Which he failed at when the serpent usurped Adam and his wife
bringing them from a neutral and innocent position to a position under the authority of darkness.

Do not complain that all of this is not so specifically shown in Genesis chapter one.
Neither is the identity of the serpent specifically stated in Genesis one or two.

Just as we are revealed more from God latter in the pages of the Bible concerning the serpent
So are we are refealed more from God latter in its pages about the nature of God's rest.
So also what the "tree of life" really points to as God coming into man, needs further in the Bible to understand.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

And the word of God speaking of the theocratic nation of God, a nations of priests entering into conquer the enemies of
God in Canaan, to establish a kingdom, with a city, and a temple in the city a Sabbath rest.

For there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

For if Joshua had brought them into rest, He would not have spoken concerning another day after these things.
So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.

For he who has entered into His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His own.
Let us therefore be diligent to enter into that rest lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience. (Heb. 4:8-11)

The Sabbath rest then entails more that is apparent by worshipping on the 7th day.

I'm not trying to be critical- I think we need to be very careful when it comes to God's Word- its easy to think our opinions are equal to His Word, but they are not. When God defines something for us, we should not try to re-define it, especially when its a commandment that God so clearly wrote.

We need to be careful as new testament believers to realize the bigger picture of God's eternal purpose
was not fully made known to the sons of men until the new testament apostles and prophets received revelation.

For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men have desired to perceive the things that you see, and have not perceived them, and to hear the things that you hear, and have not heard them. (Matt. 13:17)

By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ,
Which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit,
(Eph. 3:4,5)

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel, that is, the proclamation of Jesus Christ,
according to the revelation of the mystery, which has been kept in silence in the times of the ages
But has now been manifested, (Rom. 16:25,26a)

It's best to allow the plain Word of God to speak for itself especially when it has to do with one of God's holy commandments.

There is the need that the eyes of our hearts be enlightened that we may know the unsearchable depths of God's economy.
Then we can compare clear words with other clear words with others. And also we can consider the experience of many
who are qualified to help lead us into deeper insight and deeper experience.

The Apostle Paul -
. . . making mention of you in my prayers,
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory,
may give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the full knowledge of Him,
The eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling,
and what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (Eph. 1:16b-18)