Did Abraham observe the Sabbath day?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Paul said it - Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21)

You cannot get over the fact that God progressively unveiled His eternal purpose.
The law was a school instructor like a tutor to lead man to grace.
Now being under the grace of the indwelling Person of Jesus the new covenant people are no longer under the law.

So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. (Gal. 3:24,25)

The New Testament says Christians are no longer under the child-conductor. Why do you rebel and teach, "Yes Christians are still under the child-conductor on commandment #4. Why it was written by the finger of God !!"

There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:1,2)

If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal. 5:18)

I would suggest you consider Matt. 7:21-23 about teaching law keeping rather than living under NT grace.
You don't want to hear the Lord Jesus say something like - "Yes, you argued all the time about keeping the Sabbath. But I didn't tell you
to do that. You had Paul as an example of a faightful steward. He taught My people were not under the law but under grace."


Now, we have gone back and forth about "You're suppose to keep the Sabbath vs Living under grace not law" many times.

First you have to know what "under the law" means. What is sin and how is it defined? What was the curse of the law? Next you need to understand what grace is under that context. This passage is important:

There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:1,2)

 

[oikonomia]

@oikonomia

Not intending to derail this discussion, I'd appreciate it if you could integrate into it your thinking about the lawful use of the law (1Tim1) and Paul's instruction about the summarization of commandments as Lev19:18 in Rom13:9.

I would be glad try to say something about those three passages.
I'll related to other things I wrote in this thread.

 

[oikonomia]

First you have to know what "under the law" means. What is sin and how is it defined? What was the curse of the law? Next you need to understand what grace is under that context. This passage is important:

There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:1,2)

Please take the initiative to offer your insights.

The word of God is a gold mine endlessly deep and rich.
Layer upon layers of truth are with it like many onion skins on an onion.

Paul defined the "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel." (Eph. 3:8)
So I don't pretend in a few posts we have exhausted any passage's rich truth.

I would just briefly say that "the law of the Spirit" is a bit different use of "law" then some other places in Romans.
It is more akin to "the law of gravity."

So dependable is the life of this Person, He is totally trustworthy to guide us to bear righteous fruit unto God.
The Christian's life long process is to learn to deny the old way of living out of the self.
The Christian must learn to set the mind upon the regenerated spirit where the Spirit of life lives.

Then spontaneously, like the law of gravity, an expression and reaction of godliness will permeate and emenate from us.
It is not the work we do for God. Rather it is Christ working Himself into our being.

This is as consistent, as reliable, as trustworthy as the law of gravity pulling things down to the earth.
If we practice to walk by the Spirit with its law of the Spirit of life, we will by no means live out the corruptness of the flesh.

But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh. (Gal. 5:16)

 

[GDL]

Please take the initiative to offer your insights.

Though this is not to me, I'll do so.

The word of God is a gold mine endlessly deep and rich.
Layer upon layers of truth are with it like many onion skins on an onion.

Couldn't agree more.

Paul defined the "the unsearchable riches of Christ as the gospel." (Eph. 3:8)
So I don't pretend in a few posts we have exhausted any passage's rich truth.

In part, agreed.
Excellent attitude.

I would just briefly say that "the law of the Spirit" is a bit different use of "law" then some other places in Romans.
It is more akin to "the law of gravity."

I've reflected extensively on what Paul means when he speaks of "the Law of Christ." I think it's one of those layers you speak of. I think it is also this Law of the Spirit. I think it is also the Faith of Jesus Christ once for all handed down/transmitted to His Holy Ones. I think it also encompasses the righteous standards of God that are always His will of righteousness and justice and mercy and love, etc. for His Children.

Unlike the Law on stones and now paper, I think it's the Law being written on hearts with new spirits and the indwelling Spirit of God in the process you're speaking of. It's all of the above, and more (in agreement with what you've said above about a few posts), and including the concept of being like gravity you speak of - an invisible force of this new era - like wind/Spirit - the Spirit of Truth by which we worship/bow in reverent obeisance in Spirit and Truth as Jesus said "the time is coming and now is" - and this is what and who the Father is seeking. (This conceptually ties back to your discussion about the old era under the child-conductor vs. the new era being out from under it. This is not one day but every day and every second of Life now).

At the end of the analysis, in reverse, the layers become the onion that encompasses all the combined layers, and the onion is Jesus Christ - the Word of God. When I have studied His Word to the point of saturation, I have experienced a point a few times where I realize that the omniscient mind of God could narrow it all down to one word that would contain all the knowable. The interconnectedness of the layers so to speak.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I am clear about that. I am also clear that in contrast this same God became a man, and the man became a life giving Spirit
to impart divine life into my being.

"[T]he last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)
The Sabbath Rest is now a Person - the divine life imparting Spirit Whom Jesus BECAME in resurrection.

This may sound nice in theory that some how one of the commandments of God is now something other than how God defined it as clear as He could possibly be, both personally spoken and written by Him, but nowhere in the scripture you provided uses the word “Sabbath”. You would have to add this to the scripture to make this argument, and we are told plainly not to add to God’s Word Prov 30:5-6 and not to add or subtract from the commandments Deut 4:2. We have free will to do what we want, but when we add our words to God's Word- it doesn't make it true.

This is the grace and reality that comes to a man when Jesus comes to live in a man.
Wake up in the morning and proclaim it in thanksgiving "Lord Jesus, You came to be the life giving Spirit in me. Thankyou Lord."
You'll have all the rest you need AND all the worship too.

This is important that the Son of God in resurrection became divine life giving Spirit.
Why? Because the Law written by the finger of God and delivered to Moses and Israel could not give life.
Argue not with me. Both Paul said it and Jesus from Whom he got this truth, said it.

Paul said it - Is then the law against the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given which was able to give life, righteousness would have indeed been of law. (Gal. 3:21)

We do not receive life from the law- Paul is not teaching that we can ignore God's law and He clearly states what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 so he is not contradicting himself or God in this passage. We receive life one way, through Jesus Christ by our faith. When a person is saved, they do not live as the lost do, they keep what God's asks through love and faith, not to be saved, but because one is saved. Rev 14:12

Jesus taught it first - You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life;
and it is these that testify concerning Me. Yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (John 5:39,40)

They searched the Scripture to find eternal life. Eternal life came to them in the man Jesus, the Son of God.
And they refused to come to Him. But the Scriptures testified to Him. Galatians 3:21 and John 5:39,40 are saying the same thing.

You are taking small scriptures and using them out of context.

John 5 30-39 is about the witness of the Father to Jesus

Jesus came from the Father Himself. The Jews were accusing Jesus of sinning - transgressing the Sabbath, not being God, but God is the one who sent Jesus to do His will. There were no intermediaries such as Abraham and Moses which is why Jesus was greater because He understood the mysteries of the Father. Jesus had the testimony of the Father- His works John 5:36-37. God's own Word was being neglected- and Jesus is referring to the OT John 5:39 Jesus was telling the Jews you search the scriptures but missed Jesus in these scriptures, because they were not met with true belief. The scriptures, like His works testify about Jesus and Jesus is found all throughout the OT.

Re Gal 3:21 The role of the law did not end with the coming of Christ- anyone listening to all of Christ teachings would know this - Christ can do what the law could never accomplish- provide a true remedy for sin. Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21, not in them and through Christ we can gain victory over sin, which is breaking God's law. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

You cannot get over the fact that God progressively unveiled His eternal purpose.

God's purpose for us is that we do not sin because it is harmful to man and separates man from God. God wants to be and live with His creation, but sin separated us and God gave up His only Son so we can be reconciled if we follow His Word.

1 John 1:2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Sin is the transgression of God's law and Paul points right to the unit of Ten to define sin even in the NT Romans 7:7

Jesus wants to give us victory over the bondage of sin and live in freedom walking in His commandments through His Spirit without sin. Which is why the Ten are called the law of liberty James 2:10-12

The law was a school instructor like a tutor to lead man to grace.
Now being under the grace of the indwelling Person of Jesus the new covenant people are no longer under the law.

So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. (Gal. 3:24,25)

Sadly another misused scripture. We don't come to Christ so we can "fall away" back to sin. The commandments lets us know we are sick. Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7 without the law we would not know our sins. The law shows us our sins so we can come to Christ to help heal us. Once we are in Christ we would be keeping His commandments John 14:15-18. not falling back in our life of sin. Those who are walking in His Spirit are not in rebellion to His law. Romans 8:4-8

The New Testament says Christians are no longer under the child-conductor. Why do you rebel and teach, "Yes Christians are still under the child-conductor on commandment #4. Why it was written by the finger of God !!"

Why do you pluck the 4th commandment out of the unit of Ten when God placed this unit together, Exo 31:18, Exo 32:16 Deut 4:13 that no man has authority to add to or take from. Deut 4:2 Where is the scripture that says we no longer need to keep the Sabbath commandment? James tells us we break one of the commandments contrasting right from this unit of Ten, we break them all James 2:10-12. Jesus and the apostles kept the Sabbath commandment and is our example to follow- and following Jesus or His commandments is never rebellion - but I do not think its true for the opposite.

There is no debate over who wrote the commandments.
Why do you revolt against the up-to-date revelation of His will - we are all "organic" sons of God no longer being child-conducted by that Law?

But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal. 3:25-27)

If we have "put on Christ" we would be doing what He asks and following His example.

The law now is the law of life. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus we must learn to inwardly regulate and empower us.

We do not dictate the law- God does- only His righteousness matters, not ours - all of God's commandments are righteous Psa 119:172 so they will always be the right thing for us to do instead of depending on our own works and our own righteousness, which is not saving.

There is no argument about God being the source of the Ten Commandments.
There is no argument about the Son coming with the Father who never left Him, to live the Father and the Father's will.

There is no disagreement about the AUTHOR of the Law or the obedience of the Son of God.

We at least we found some common ground.

There is disagreement about living in the New Testament salvation of faith and grace - oneness with the indwelling Christ as the divine life giving Spirit.

We are saved by faith. How can we say in one breath we have faith in Jesus, but not enough faith to follow His example 1 John 2:6 or to do what He asks John 14:15- that does not sound like someone who has faith. We are to be doers of His Word, not just hearers James 1:22, Rev 22:14

Those who have faith uphold His law Romans 3:31 because we have faith in what God asks of us is for our own good and He is trustworthy, therefore His law is trustworthy Psalm 111:7

There is now then no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:1,2)

You might want to keep reading....

Romans 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

What gives us peace?

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

There is no argument here about the Triune God being the Creator. All things came into being through the Word who was with God and was God. You cannot point to this as grounds to rebel against New Testamnt grace in favor of returning to law keeping.

We are living in grace because we have all sinned. Romans 3:23 Paul makes it abundantly clear grace is not a license to sin...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Taking all things into account, John 14:15 is about keeping His instant inward commandments. You are reading into the passage
"If you love Me you will keep the Ten Commandments."

I choose to believe what Jesus actually says, instead of what I prefer Him to say. This is not a hard-to-understand scripture, its simple. If we love Jesus we would keep His commandments, which shows loving God is more than a feeling, it is a call to action. 1 John 5:2-3

And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

He will get down to what I should do Tuesday morning, Thursday evening, Saturday afternoon.
The Spirit of Christ may tell me to do some work on Saturday. And WHILE I am working STILL set the mind
on the Spirit in my spirit. This is the root of our worship in the new covenant grace - to walk step by step with the mind set on the Spirit of life.

The Spirit and God's commandments are not at odds with each other- they work in tandem not against. This is not releasing us from obeying one of God's commandments- that is another add on to God's Word. We are to be transformed in His image and we would be doing what He does. The commandments reflect the character of God - God hallowed the Sabbath from the beginning before sin enter Exo 20:11, Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments His entire life John 15:10 and is our example 1 John 2:6 if we are to take on the character of God we need to have faith in what He asks and His example and follow Him, even if it doesn't make sense to us.

I love the entire Bible SabbathBlessing - all sixty six books I love.

Me too.

But God's revelation is unfolding. And we must not linger in the OT economy to rebel against the NT economy.

I have yet to find the scripture that says we are not to follow the OT- while we are in the NC and some things have changes, God's laws written in the heart is not one of them as we see from the NT teachings of all of the commandments.

In the latter revelation "the work of God" is to believe ourselves INTO the Son and "eat" Him as the living bread of life.

Then they said to Him, What shall we do that we may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom He has sent. (John 6:28,29)

He pointed to Himself as "food" to take in and live by - the reality of the MANNA from heaven to sustain God's people.
He did not point them to making certain they kept the laws given by God on Mt. Sinai.

You know "manna" means "What is it?" This was a new reality to man - to live by "consumming" by eating the man who
came down from heaven.

we must learn to eat Him and live by Him. We should not in perplexity to this "MANNA" of Christ the bread from heaven, decide it is too hard to understand compared to just keeping the Sabbath on Saturday. That is easy to understand. That is easy to make us think we are doing
what God wants.

Manna is a big study and maybe I will come back to it when I have more time. But its "deleting one of the commandments of God" We are to live by every Word of God Math 4:4 the Sabbath is God's Word spoken and written by God that He blessed and sanctified and something He asked us to Remember. Man says forget- sorry if my faith is in God over the teachings of man.

If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the law.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. (Gal. 5:18)

If we are led by the Spirit- we would not be sinning and breaking God's law. The Spirit is given to convict us of sin John 16:8 and is given to help us keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and given to those who obey Acts 5:32. Those in Christ Spirit is not hostile to God's law Romans 8:7

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Do not be too quick to assume exalting the Sabbath keeping above the Son of God could not be someone THINKING he is
doing things for the Lord. "I never knew you" contains the same word as acknowledge in Romans 7:15 -

Why do you pit obeying what God commands us against God? This sounds like a doctrine of the other spirit. If you do not commit murder is that above the Son of God, or not covet, or use His name only in a sacred way?

I would suggest you consider Matt. 7:21-23 about teaching law keeping rather than living under NT grace.
You don't want to hear the Lord Jesus say something like - "Yes, you argued all the time about keeping the Sabbath. But I didn't tell you
to do that. You had Paul as an example of a faightful steward. He taught My people were not under the law but under grace."

I choose to follow Jesus words and not the words of man. If you think Jesus didn't mean what He said and means your interpretation instead, that's fine we have free will. Jesus gives us warnings a head of time, so hopefully we will believe His words and reconsider our path. Jesus said many will say Lord Lord at His Second Coming- these are believers but choose their will over God's.

I'll take my methods to the Lord in careful prayer.
Why don't you do so also.

We all should and when you find the verse in God's Word that says we do not need to keep the Sabbath commandment and can forget what God said Remember and keep holy, please share.

Now, we have gone back and forth about "You're suppose to keep the Sabbath vs Living under grace not law" many times.

I think we should shift to discussing what is the real meaning behind the REST.
You can start by expounding the passage in Hebrews.

So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
For he who has entered into His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His own.
Let us therefore be diligent to enter into that rest lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.

The Greek Word for rest in Hebrews 4:9 literally translates into Sabbath-keeping

Strong's Concordance
4520. sabbatismos
sabbatismos: a sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: a sabbath rest
Usage: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

So this verse means
Hebrews 4: 9 NIV There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest (keeping) for the people of God;

Hebrews 4:10 for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from their works,just as God did from his.
When did God rest from His works? This very passage tells us.

Hebrews 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”

Hebrews 4:11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will perish by following their example of disobedience.

This passage is about not following the same path of the Israelites in their rebellion in the wilderness Hebrews 4:6 and what they rebelled against and profaned was the Sabbath Eze 20:13, Eze 20:21 and we are called not to follow their same path of disobedience which is why the Sabbath remains (not changed) for God's people because it is a commandment of God and God's people keeps God's comamndments until the very end of time. Rev 22:14 Rev 14:12

If "there remains a Sabbath rest" even though all Christians set aside Saturday for main worship, there is a deeper significance
of its meaning.

Agree- it is to have spiritual rest with our heavenly Father- to rest in His Word- through prayer, worship, and for sanctification. Six days we are to do work and labors Exo 20:9 and God wants us to unplug one day a week on the seventh day Exodus 20:10 to spend time with Him. We cannot sanctify ourselves, only God can Eze 20:12 which is why He set aside a holy day to give us physical and spiritual rest in Him and He blesses us when we obey Him. Isaiah 58:13-14

 

[oikonomia]

I don't think we can be called to true worship according to scripture if one does not keep His commandments.

I think I told you, the commandments of the living and indwelling Spirit of Christ are very personal, intimate, calibrated to
the smallest levels of a man's reaction. The commandments of Jesus are more about how we react rather than how we act.

You are usng "keep His commandments" to mean be under the law exactly like Israel from Mt. Sinai.

All of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 and righteous Psalms 119:172 and testify about the character of God.

I am not under the law. Yet I love to be fed in my spirit and concience by musing over every verse of 119. You've given me a
good excuse to go read it this week. All Scriptures is God-breathed and profitable for breathing in God's Holy Spirit.

Now I really like you pointing out that the law TESTIFIES God's character.
The Law was called "the Testimony". The Testimony was placed into the Ark of the Testimony.

And you shall put the expiation cover upon the Ark above it, and into the Ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. (Exo. 25:21)

God's nature of truth, light, righteousness, and holiness are TESTIFIED to by the Law.
But, I am sorry. If you follow teaching and fellowship of the NT apostles, like Paul, you will see the Testimony had
the function to condemn. Because the Testimony condemned man, above it was placed the propituatory cover for expiation of sins.

And you shall put the expiation cover upon the Ark above it, and into the Ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you.

Christ the Son of God is the reality of the propitiatory cover. He is the PLACE where all sinners hopelessly convicted by the Law
can be justified to meet God.

Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Whom God set forth as a propitiation place through faith in His blood, . . . (Rom. 3:24,25a)

The ministry of this Testimony of the law was called "the ministry of condemnation" in the New Testament.

For if there is glory with the ministry of condemnation, (2 Cor. 3:9)

This OT ministry was also called "of the letter" which incidently KILLS.

Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, . . (2 Cor. 2:6a)

Because the ministry of the law kills it was called "the ministry of death."

Moreover if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, (2 Cor. 3:7a)

The glory of this killing ministry of death was a fading glory.

if the ministry of death, engraved in stone in letters, came about in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory which was being done away with, (2 Cor. 3:7)

The contrasting New Testament ministry of righteousness REMAINS [abounds] in glory - unfading.

much more the ministry of righteousness abounds with glory. (2 Cor. 3:9b)

The New Testament ministry of the Spirit [a living Person] who gives divine life.

Who has also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.(2 Cor. 3:6)

SabbathBlessings, can you say a joyful and hearty "Amen!" to these words of the New Testament apostle?
Or do you resist and hunt for ways to twist away their meaning?

Scripture tells us if we claim we know God, but do not keep His commandments, there is no truth in us.

You twist the meaning of that if you intend to teach unless we are under the law, there is no truth in us.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. We are told those who do not have truth will be outside the gates. Rev 22:15

You twist 1 John 2:4 if you use it to prove "I know Him" means we are obligated to be under the law exatly like Israel in the OT.
You also twist Revelation 22:15 if you intend to use it to prove only those inside the gates are people under the law to keep it.

Now "twist" is an unpleasant expression to use. But you're doing that I'm afraid.
Those inside the New Jerusalem are the eaters of "the tree of life" meaning taking in God's life and nature,
and have been justified objectively and subjectively by Christ's redemption.

Blessed are those who wash their robes that they may have right to the tree of life and may enter by the gates into the city. (Rev. 22:14)

I told you that the living Jesus Christ is the place of propitiation that God and man may meet.
He is not only the propitiatory sacrifice. He is the PLACE of propitition HILASTERION-"the place of propitiation."

So its impossible to say one knows God, but does not do what He asks through faith.

Faith is set in contrast to legalistic law keeping in the NT. For just one example -

But before faith came we were guarded under law, being shut up unto the faith which was to be revealed.
So then the law has become our child-conductor unto Christ that we might be justified out of faith.
But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. (Gal.3:23-25)

Jesus even helps us obey Him so we don't have to do it alone John 14:15-18 but I would be real careful thinking one of God's personally written and personally spoken commandments ended, especially the one God said Remember and is holy and blessed by God.

Yes, the ONLY Person in the whole universe who is absolute for the will of the Father is Jesus.
You may certainly say He helps us to obey God.
I would put it that He HIMSELF is our obedience to God.

Sin is the transgression of the law 1 John 3:4 and Paul points right to this unit of Ten to define sin Romans 7:7 without the law, we would not know we are sick and need Jesus so its not Jesus telling us we don't have to obey one of His commandments,

It is one thing to say John says all lawlessness is sin. It is another twisting thing to teach Christians are under the law now.
We have been DISCHARGED from the law and put into a living Person, Christ.

DISCHARGED - But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter. (Rom. 7:6)

PUT INTO CHRIST - But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became wisdom to us from God: both righteousness and sanctification and redemption, That as it is written, “He who boasts, let him boast in the Lord.” ( 1 Cor. 1:30,31)

Where is your boast? Is it that you are a law keeper? My boast is that of God I am now in Christ who has become to me righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

The Christians boast should not be that he is under the law just like the Israelites at Mt. Sinai.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

DISCHARGED - But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter. (Rom. 7:6)

The law brings wrath and without law there is no sin
Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

The wrath is death
The wages of sin is death Romans 6:23

The law is the knowledge of sin
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And Paul points to the unit of Ten to define sin

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

If the law goes away, so does death, because the transgression of the law (sin) is death. No law, no sin, no death, which makes us immortal

The problem with this is only God is immortal

1 Timothy 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

So who do you think wants us to believe we are free to sin and not keep God's law because without the law we would not need a Savior (Christ) to save us from sin and we would all be lost. I'll give you a little hint. 1 John 3:8 It's the same lie in the garden, that we can disobey God and live.


I think we are too far apart in our understanding of God's Word, so I am going to leave it as agree to disagree and wish you well seeking Truth to His Word.

God bless.

 

[oikonomia]

Why do you pit obeying what God commands us against God?

The word of God draws the contrast of being under the law with being under grace.

Now Paul wrote - "But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor. " (Gal. 3:25)

Your teaching is that this is only true for a moment. Soon enough, we are AGAIN under the child-conductor of the law.
Christ's apostle says "no longer".
You say in essence "only temporarily".

This sounds like a doctrine of the other spirit.

Galatians is of the Spirit of Christ 1,000,000 %. How dare you?
Of course First John is also of the anointing, of the Spirit Who teaches us to "abide in Him."

In the closing verses to this epistle, John says ANYTHING that replaces the Triune God in whom we are in as believers,
can become an IDOL. That includes your 4th commandment. It can be subtly morphed into an idol which usurps the preeminence
of the Triune God in us.

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we might know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Little children, guard yourselves from idols. (1 John 5:20,21)

This is the conclusion of the same letter, - This is the true God and eternal life.

If you do not commit murder is that above the Son of God, or not covet, or use His name only in a sacred way?

The Ten Commands had it codified "You shall not commit murder."
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ indwelling the Christians shines on his innermost inclination to be angry without a cause.

That is a "command" that may take milliseconds to heed long before the action of any part of the body occurs.

You have heard that it was said to the ancients, “You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment.”
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. (Matt. 5:21,22)

The need to abide in Christ, the indwelling life giving Spirit is far, far more penetrating then the laws of Moses.

I choose to follow Jesus words and not the words of man.

I was hoping you would say that.
I hope you do not mean by that that you will not receive him whom Jesus sent as an apostle.

Truly, truly, I say to you, He who receives whomever I shall send receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. (John 13:20)

I hope by "follow Jesus but not the words of man" you are not saying you reject the Apostle Paul's teaching.
God did use Paul to write some 13 of the 27 NT books.

I will take time to study your paragraphs on Hebrews and the Sabbath rest latter.
It is acknowledged that you put much time on that.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I will take time to study your paragraphs on Hebrews and the Sabbath rest latter.
It is acknowledged that you put much time on that.

Thanks. I would be happy to go through this passage with you verse by verse.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Ten Commands had it codified "You shall not commit murder."
The law of the Spirit of life in Christ indwelling the Christians shines on his innermost inclination to be angry without a cause.

That is a "command" that may take milliseconds to heed long before the action of any part of the body occurs.

You have heard that it was said to the ancients, “You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment.”
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin; and whoever says, Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire. (Matt. 5:21,22)

I agree, the Ten Commandments are much greater than the letter. But they are greater, not lesser.

Jesus is not "releasing" us from thou shalt not murder, this is not what He is saying, common sense should tell us that. Jesus is magnifying God's law and applying it to our thoughts and feelings. If one changes their thoughts of anger and contempt towards our neighbor to love and compassion- thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept. There is a spiritual aspect to every one of the commandments that is greater, not lesser. If we are keeping the spirit of the law, the letter is automatically kept. The law is a good way to test ourselves which we are called to do 2 Corinthians 13:5 are we in the faith- those with faith uphold the law Romans 3:31 through love 1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 John 15:10

If you note before Jesus quoted directly from the Ten- He also warns us not to break or to teach others to break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19. I do not think the one commandment God blessed and made holy and told us to Remember is a least commandment to forget, but we are to keep even the least commandments, which means all because we love God.

 

[oikonomia]

I've reflected extensively on what Paul means when he speaks of "the Law of Christ." I think it's one of those layers you speak of. I think it is also this Law of the Spirit.

Yes, the law of the Spirit of life (Rom. 8:1) certainly is the law of Christ (Gal. 6:2).

I think it is also the Faith of Je sus Christ once for all handed down/transmitted to His Holy Ones. I think it also encompasses the righteous standards of God that are always His will of righteousness and justice and mercy and love, etc. for His Children.

It could be said this way. In Romans 8:1 "the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus . . ." is more focussed on the individual.
It is, let's say, more VERTICAL. The Spirit of divine life coming down from above to liberate the believer individually.

The same thing is mentioned in Galatians 6:2 in a more HORIZONTAL spreading out through the normal church life.
Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely.

For God's purpose is to build the church. This indwelling Person must spread out to express brotherly love to the other
members of this corporate body. Individual salvation is FOR the building of the Body of Christ.

To build up the corporate "one new man" love moves us to bear one another's burdens, especially in prayer and petition.
Even two by two is effective, or three by three. And practical bearing of the other members is needed also.

One day I noticed that Paul concluded Galatians three about all this freedom in Christ with a description of utter oneness - unity - harmony betweenstratified people groups of the old creation.

But since faith has come, we are no longer under a child-conductor.
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There cannot be Jew nor Greek, there cannot be slave nor free man,
there cannot be male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:25-28)

The freedom is for the buiding up of the one new of "Jesusly human" sons of God.
"[T]here CANNOT be . . . " the divisive, competing, sectarian, warring and backbitting social cliches, racism, even "gender"oppression and rivaly.

Paul ever faithful to the overall purpose of Christ to build His church, comes right back to end goal - the church- local and universal.

Unlike the Law on stones and now paper, I think it's the Law being written on hearts with new spirits and the indwelling Spirit of God in the process you're speaking of.

Yes. Our heart is living. To inscribe on our heart must be the writing of something of life.
This is the inscribing of the Person of the Spirit so central to the ministry of the new covenant.

Since you are being manifested that you are a letter of Christ ministered by us, inscribed not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tablets of stone but in tablets of hearts of flesh. (2 Cor. 3:3)

Paul and his co-workers were writing a living Person of the Spirit into the hearts of those they ministered to.
And to whomever they did this, it is like they had a COPY in thier own hearts.

The inscribing is not with ink but with the indellible marking of the living Spirit of Christ.
That is a PERSON being written into persons.

It's all of the above, and more (in agreement with what you've said above about a few posts), and including the concept of being like gravity you speak of - an invisible force of this new era - like wind/Spirit - the Spirit of Truth by which we worship/bow in reverent obeisance in Spirit and Truth as Jesus said "the time is coming and now is" - and this is what and who the Father is seeking. (This conceptually ties back to your discussion about the old era under the child-conductor vs. the new era being out from under it. This is not one day but every day and every second of Life now).

At the end of the analysis, in reverse, the layers become the onion that encompasses all the combined layers, and the onion is Jesus Christ - the Word of God. When I have studied His Word to the point of saturation, I have experienced a point a few times where I realize that the omniscient mind of God could narrow it all down to one word that would contain all the knowable. The interconnectedness of the layers so to speak.

This is important that we speak also by experience. It is not all a matter of lexicons, dictionaries, and word studies.
This tools we thank God for. But how we can also say "I know what is being spoken here because of experience too."

He has a law of brotherly love which spreads. We simply have to be with and care for other human beings who
are having this same supernatural experience. The life in us wants to do that. We must go along. And going along
He grows. The sense of our oneness encreases.

 

[oikonomia]

I agree, the Ten Commandments are much greater than the letter. But they are greater, not lesser.

Jesus is not "releasing" us from thou shalt not murder, this is not what He is saying, common sense should tell us that.

That is right. Jesus IS "you shall not murder." We need to be regenerated by Him, filled with Him, learn to abide continually in Him.
He is the divine seed implanted in men that the NATURE of that seed causes men to overcome the sin nature.

Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. (1 John 3:9)

With the growth and influence of this divine seed (Christ) the possibility of sinning is reduced in proportion to growth of this life.

Whatever is born of God overcomes the world. Our regenerated spirit is born of God.
Paul calls this "the inner man" into which we must be strengthened.

The victory is in our spirit. The victory is with this divine SEED. The "everything" is our reborn inner man, the human spirit.

For everything that has been begotten of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory which has overcome the world — our faith. (1 John 5:4)

You see the regenerated inner man overcomes the world. And our FAITH overcomes.
That is Christ making His home in our hearts by faith, as we are eneergized and strengthened into that realm where the divine seed is.

That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory,
to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man,
That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith, (Eph. 3:16,17a)

For this we Christians have been discharged from the law.
DIscharged from the law that we might become "partakers of the divine nature."

. . . that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, . . . (See 2 Pet. 1:4)

No longer just "convicted" by that nature.
No longer merely "spectators" of that nature.
No longer mere "admirerers" or even "worshippers" from afar of that nature.

The new covenant is that we be PARTICIPANTS . . . PARTAKERS of God's life and nature.
It is a CYCLE. The more we partake the more we escape the corrution of the world.
The more we escape the corruption the more also we partake of God's life and nature.

Through which He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption which is in the world by lust.

Jesus is magnifying God's law and applying it to our thoughts and feelings.

After His resurrection it absolutely was Him applying HIMSELF to us.
God wants to dispense the Son of God into us.
God wantss to impart the Son of God into us.

This is the economy of God, to dispense the Triune God embodied in Christ, reaching us as the Spirit.

If one changes their thoughts of anger and contempt towards our neighbor to love and compassion- thou shalt not murder would automatically be kept.

Try it without Christ. See how far you can get.
In the Christian dictionary there is really only one word for all the attributes of God conveyed to man - Christ.

So we need to be "firmly attached" to this anointed One of God and share in His anointing.

But the One who firmly attaches us with you unto Christ and has anointed us is God,
He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2 Cor. 1:21,22)

There is a spiritual aspect to every one of the commandments that is greater, not lesser. If we are keeping the spirit of the law, the letter is automatically kept.

What Romans 8:4 says is that the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in us who live by the Spirit.

That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit.

The "righteous requirement" is not always the letter. But it the divine requirement that the letter of the law exposed man's weakness to obey.

Paul said the law could NOT do something because it was weak through the flesh.
That is not a temporary weakness. That is not a weakness that goes away.

For that which the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of the flesh of sin and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, (8:3)

Are you teaching "Yes the law WAS weak. But now that is different. The law is strong again. So keep it."
He spent all of chapter 7 to show how utterly inneffective was his dedicated pursuit of the law.

Now he turns to walking by the Spirit of Christ dispensed into his spirit.
Not only so. In His death Christ has put to death the whole old law keeping inclination of the old man.

He says this in chapters 8 and in chapter 6,7.

Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves; (Rom. 6:6)

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (7:4)

We have been buried therefore with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life. (v.4)

This experience though seen from God'sviewpoint as once and for all, the Christian GROWS in as the divine life grows.

For if we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection (6:5)

The law is a good way to test ourselves which we are called to do 2 Corinthians 13:5

This verse does tells the Christians to examine of Christ is in them.

Test yourselves whether you are in the faith; prove yourselves. Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are disapproved? ( 2 Cor. 3:5)

are we in the faith- those with faith uphold the law Romans 3:31 through love 1 John 5:2-3 John 14:15 John 15:10

The test is whether we are in "the faith."
I hope you do not mean "Test yourselves whether you are under the 4th commandment. If you ARE you know Christ is in you."

Romans 3:21 - "But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been manifested, witness being borne to it by the Law and the Prophets;"

The commandments of God manifested the righeousness of God, as also the prophets.
Now in the new testament age "apart from the law" His righteousness is testified to by the redemption work of Christ.
Evidently, that work had retro-active effect on those whose sins were passed overby God on behalf of Christ.

If you note before Jesus quoted directly from the Ten- He also warns us not to break or to teach others to break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19. I do not think the one commandment God blessed and made holy and told us to Remember is a least commandment to forget, but we are to keep even the least commandments, which means all because we love God.

We can come back to Matthew chapter 5 and the whole tenor of Matthew's gospel.

I only want to say further that LOVE is the expression of the divine life.
One of the reason we know we have passed out of death into divine life is because of the love.

The divine life comes and the divine love is to be seen. If the divine love is not manifested,
either there is no divine life OR the divine life is stunted as to His growth in us.

We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers. (1 John 3:14a)

If we are in God as the divine and eternal life, it is abnormal that this not be manifested in ever encreasing love for the brothers.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That is right. Jesus IS "you shall not murder." We need to be regenerated by Him, filled with Him, learn to abide continually in Him.
He is the divine seed implanted in men that the NATURE of that seed causes men to overcome the sin nature.

Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God. (1 John 3:9)

This verse does not say Jesus is the commandments - Jesus is our Creator He Created the commandments- He is not the commandments, He is not the Sabbath day or any part of His creation, He is the Creator, not the creation.

This verse is telling us to not practice sin. Which means- Do not break God's law! John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Not that He is the law. If we are in Christ we are not breaking the law- its that simple. If one is transgressing the commandments, means they are sinning and not in Christ. This is referring to perpetual sin - if we stumble and sin (break God's law) we have an Advocate with Jesus and should go straight to Him with our repentance. Sinning should make us sorry because it hurts God and separates us from Him. He wants us to be reconciled and clearly shows at His Second Coming what that looks like...Rev 22:14-15. Not everyone overcomes, because many do not want to come to the light because many love darkness (sin) rather than light (Truth) John 3:19-21. The Ten Commandments lets us know our sin, so we can go to Jesus to help us overcome them. Through Jesus Christ we can gain victory over sin and keep His commandments. John 14:15-18

Knowing this, that our old man has been crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be annulled, that we should no longer serve sin as slaves; (Rom. 6:6)

Thats right, we are either a slave to Christ or a slave to sin, its either one or the other one leads to death, one to righteousness Romans 6:16 Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7

We can't serve in the Sprit if we are hostile to God's law. Romans 8:4-8 For some reason, you seem to think the Spirit and God's law are at odds, when they are in harmony.

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (7:4)

Many people misunderstand Paul's writings. There is even a warning about it in scripture. 2 Peter 3:16

Paul does not have authority to undermine God and do away with His holy commandments and he doesn't. He says what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 so obviously some misunderstanding what Paul is teaching in Romans 6,7,8

The test is whether we are in "the faith."
I hope you do not mean "Test yourselves whether you are under the 4th commandment. If you ARE you know Christ is in you."

Why are you plucking out the 4th commandment when God didn't. The Ten Commandments are a unit of Ten that God placed together and no man has authority to add to or take from Deut 4:2 you break one commandment, you break them all James 2:10-12

Yes, the test is our faith, which is how we are saved by Jesus through faith. How do we have faith in God, but not faith to do what He asks? That does not sound like saving faith to me. There are many that say Lord Lord on that great day, but it is only those who do the will of the Father.

God wrote His laws in our hearts and minds because this is His will for His children that we do not sin. He gives us His Spirit to help us obey Him John 14:15-18 and His Spirit is given to those who obey Act 5:32

For some reason there seems to be a disconnect that you think God's law and His Spirit are at odds, but they are not. There is no scripture in all of the bible that says we can break the commandments of God. God's people keep them through faith and love.

One of the last scriptures in the Bible right before the Revelation of Jesus Christ

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers (Breaking commandment #1 Exodus 20:3) and sexually immoral (breaking commandment #7 Exodus 20:14) and murderers (breaking commandment #6 Exodus 20:13) and idolaters (breaking commandment #2 Exodus 20:4-6), and whoever loves and practices a lie (breaking # 9 Exodus 20:16 or any of the commandments 1 John 2:4

God shows us what's going to happen ahead of time, not to scare us, but for us to hopefully re-evaluate the path we are on. Thats why the law is there, it is like a mirror to show us our sin and through Jesus Christ we can obey Him through love and faith.

 

[GDL]

The same thing is mentioned in Galatians 6:2 in a more HORIZONTAL spreading out through the normal church life.
Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ completely.

The issue I see in our time is a lack in spiritual maturity. Many have experientially identified our time as a time of Bible illiteracy. Same thing.

This horizontal in Gal6 you reference is Paul speaking to those he calls "spiritual." This is one of the words he uses for the spiritually mature and the verses inform that they are able to identify any sin. The end of Heb5 and into Heb6 provide more information as to who they are why they are able to identify any sin. It is these that are able to fulfill the Law of Christ because they have been developed in it as you've been addressing as the Law of the Spirit. It is these mature sons and daughters who in a small but advanced way are able to do for one another on an experiential level what Christ did for all of us - defeat sin[ning].

"[T]here CANNOT be . . . " the divisive, competing, sectarian, warring and backbitting social cliches, racism, even "gender"oppression and rivaly.

Coupled with what I said above, IMO this divisiveness is a sign of the immaturity still of the Ekklesia. Paul pretty much lays this out in mid Eph4 where he's using terminology of corporate unity & the "perfect" (mature) man - the Body with its Head - and no longer being the children/infants (nepioi) tossed around by wrong teachings. This childish condition is the same word used in Heb5 in contrast to once again the "perfect" mature and it's tied to being learned/skilled in the "Word of Righteousness."

Collectively, we're just still far from the goal IMO. I don't think many understand the goals for us that are stated in the NC. It's troubling.

 

[oikonomia]

The issue I see in our time is a lack in spiritual maturity. Many have experientially identified our time as a time of Bible illiteracy. Same thing.

I once started a thread on a Spirituality Forum with the title something like "Don't be too hard on yourself."
My desire, from experience, was to point out sometimes we Christians are weak because we are too isolated.
Sometimes, we cannot get through some besetting weakness because no one is there to help us with that burden.

The law of Christ is related to fellowship. Isolation and individualism can keep the horizontal flow of grace from us.
Naturally I would like to receive all the blessing directly from above. But the Lord will not allow that.
Some things He will not let you get through just you and Him alone. He puts into a place where we need fellowship
In fellowship the law of Christ can powerfully work on our behalf.

The Lord Jesus stressed that where two or three were together in His name (for Him, with Him as the center) there He is in the midst.

For where there are two or three gathered into My name, there am I in their midst. (Matt. 18:20)

It need not be two hundred saints you open up your need to. Two or three with Jesus as their focus.
This is to have companions you trust. You can pray binding and lossing prayers for yourselves and for others.
The law of the Body life, the law of Christ, I believe can be unleashed where TWO are, where THREE are together Christ being the
center and reason for your gathering.

This horizontal in Gal6 you reference is Paul speaking to those he calls "spiritual."

This is a good point becauase the spiritual can restore one another in meekness.
They realize but for the grace indwelling, they could fall just as easily.

Brothers, even if a man is overtaken in some offense, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, looking to yourself lest you also be tempted. (Gal. 6:1)

This is one of the words he uses for the spiritually mature and the verses inform that they are able to identify any sin. The end of Heb5 and into Heb6 provide more information as to who they are why they are able to identify any sin.

Yes, in Hebrews the spiritually mature go on from the foundation. The discernment is keener.
God must mercifully permit some to advance. Hopefully all will advance.

" . . . let us be brought on to maturity, . . . "And this we will do if God permits." (Heb. 6:1,3)

It is these that are able to fulfill the Law of Christ because they have been developed in it as you've been addressing as the Law of the Spirit. It is these mature sons and daughters who in a small but advanced way are able to do for one another on an experiential level what Christ did for all of us - defeat sin[ning].

Yes. I am some brothers are learning to call one another even for three minute prayer.
We hope this habit spreads to others. Surely we all can take three minutes to petition the Lord in prayer, holding up one another, bearing one another's burdens in the Body.

Coupled with what I said above, IMO this divisiveness is a sign of the immaturity still of the Ekklesia. Paul pretty much lays this out in mid Eph4 where he's using terminology of corporate unity & the "perfect" (mature) man - the Body with its Head - and no longer being the children/infants (nepioi) tossed around by wrong teachings. This childish condition is the same word used in Heb5 in contrast to once again the "perfect" mature and it's tied to being learned/skilled in the "Word of Righteousness."

Yes, I think the distracting teaching may even be good but in a lifeless way.
Some of us may be blown off course by wrong teaching.
Some may be blown by the winds of a "right" teaching.
But it is "dead right." Doctrinally sound but the outflow of the Spirit seems just not to come with the speaking.

Collectively, we're just still far from the goal IMO. I don't think many understand the goals for us that are stated in the NC. It's troubling.

 

[oikonomia]

This verse does not say Jesus is the commandments - Jesus is our Creator He Created the commandments- He is not the commandments, He is not the Sabbath day or any part of His creation, He is the Creator, not the creation.

The book of Colossians was written to emphasize that our Christ is everything.
Surely He is the Creator. He is also "Christ OUR LIFE."
When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:4)
That's Colossians !

Wonderful Colossians. That Christ may have preeminence in all things - all things in the old creation and all things in the new creation.

. . . all things have been created through Him and unto Him.
And He is before all things, and all things cohere in Him;
And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning,
the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things; (1:16b-19)

For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell (2:9)
And you have been made full in Him, (2:10a)
[Christ] In whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden. (2:3)

Because we are made full in Him, no religion, philsophy, system of ethics, collection of laws can surpass Him.
That is Colossians.

This verse is telling us to not practice sin. Which means- Do not break God's law! John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Not that He is the law.

The verse saying that with Him there is the law of the Spirit of life is Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:2)

Paul pioneered in learning to take Christ as his everything and his life.
For him to LIVE . . . was Christ. What a interweaving of the resurrected Jesus with a man.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Phil. 1:21)

Paul said he did not want to be found in his own righteousness which was of the law, but in Christ by faith manifesting the righteousness of God.

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)

"His own righteousness" was him strriving to keep the law.
The righteousness whichisout of God is based on faith not law keeping.

the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)

How we need to learn from this pioneering brother Paul.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The book of Colossians was written to emphasize that our Christ is everything.
Surely He is the Creator. He is also "Christ OUR LIFE."
When Christ our life is manifested, then you also will be manifested with Him in glory. (Col. 3:4)
That's Colossians !

Wonderful Colossians. That Christ may have preeminence in all things - all things in the old creation and all things in the new creation.

. . . all things have been created through Him and unto Him.
And He is before all things, and all things cohere in Him;
And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning,
the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself might have the first place in all things; (1:16b-19)

For in Him all the fullness was pleased to dwell (2:9)
And you have been made full in Him, (2:10a)
[Christ] In whom all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are hidden. (2:3)

Yes, this is a different argument than He is commandments. He gave commandments, He is not commandments which is saying Jesus gave Himself commandments instead of commanding them to us. Jesus asked us to keep the commandments John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10

The verse saying that with Him there is the law of the Spirit of life is Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death. (Rom. 8:2)

The law here is the law of sin and death- the wages of sin is death. There is no condemnation if one is keeping the commandments which is why if you keep reading you will see those who are walking in the Spirit are not hostile to the law of God, but those who are an enmity to God's law are not walking in the Spirit, but walking in the flesh (sin). The law of the Spirit of life is freedom in Christ because one is obedient to Him and free of sin.

Paul pioneered in learning to take Christ as his everything and his life.
For him to LIVE . . . was Christ. What a interweaving of the resurrected Jesus with a man.
For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Phil. 1:21)

Amen

Paul said he did not want to be found in his own righteousness which was of the law, but in Christ by faith manifesting the righteousness of God.

And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)
"His own righteousness" was him strriving to keep the law.
The righteousness whichisout of God is based on faith not law keeping.

the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith, (Phil. 3:9)

How we need to learn from this pioneering brother Paul.

Which law is Paul referring to? There are many laws in scripture and context dictates which law is being referred to. Every time we see the word "law" does not mean its referring to the Ten Commandments. If you look at the context it tells us the law its referring to. The same one spoke about almost all throughout Galatians. Do you think Paul contradicts himself or God? Paul contrasts the law that is being referred to with the commandments of God and said what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 We do need to learn from our brother Paul.

 

[oikonomia]

Yes, this is a different argument than He is commandments. He gave commandments, He is not commandments which is saying Jesus gave Himself commandments instead of commanding them to us. Jesus asked us to keep the commandments John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. (Phil. 1:21)
Which did Paul proclaim? For him to live was keeping the law? Or did he say for him to live was Christ?

The law here is the law of sin and death- the wages of sin is death.

In the Rom. 8:2 the first "law" is the innate nature and characteristic of God.
The second use of "law" is the innate evil nature of sin with its result death.

Neither "law" in verse 2 refer to the law of God.
If that is what you are saying, I agree. And I never implied otherwise anywhere in this thread or Forum.

There is no condemnation if one is keeping the commandments which is why if you keep reading you will see those who are walking in the Spirit are not hostile to the law of God,

You can keep the letter of the law and your conscience still condemn you.
John chapter 8 shows us that. The religionists caught the woman in adultery and demanded that Jesus
go along with them because, afterall, that is what Moses commanded.

Jesus stooped wrote seemingly unconcerned something in the ground.
Then He rose up and said whoever was without sin among them should cast the first stone.
The younger ones who had lived less time impetuously held out for awhuile.
The older ones who KNEW their conscience convicted them of many sins in their life, slipped away quietly first.

But when they persisted in questioning Him, He stood up and said to them, He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. . . And when they heard that, they went out one by one, beginning with the older ones. And Jesus was left alone, and the woman stood where she was, in the midst. (John 8:7,9)

No one was left except the guitly woman and the sinless Son of God.
He appeared totally unsurprised.

Like you they were all about making sure they kept the law.
But a greater light was there to convict them deeper than they had ever been convicted.
He then proclaimed in the next segment that He was the light of the world.

Has no one condemned you? (v.10b)

And she said, No one, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more. (v.11)

Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall by no means walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. (v.12)

 

[oikonomia]

No one knows exactly WHAT Jesus was writing in the ground. I have heard some good guesses,
But whatever it was, I think He may have been hinting that HE was God become a man.
And as God wrote with His finger on the tablets the Ten Commandments, this God was
now on earth in Jesus again showing how easy it was for Him to again write with His finger.

At any rate this "light of the world" is now the resurrected Christ and the life giving Spirit to live in man.
And He Himself is the SUPPLY to meet the divine DEMAND of God in His people.

What Romans 8:2 says is that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.

but those who are an enmity to God's law are not walking in the Spirit, but walking in the flesh (sin). The law of the Spirit of life is freedom in Christ because one is obedient to Him and free of sin.

Amen

It is true that the liberation there is from the slavery to sin.
But what it says is that the mind set on the flesh is at emnity against God.

The mind can be set on the religious flesh striving to keep the law of God.
It CANNOT for one - impossible. And though it may be trying it is actually hostile to God
now at this stage of God's disclosure of who He is - the resurrected Christ as the life giving Spirit.

Because the mind set on the flesh is enmity against God;
for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither can it be.
And those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Rom. 8:7,8)

The Judaizers were zealous for the law of God.
The Judaizers were hostil to the new testament and the apostles.
The Judaizers set their mind on the flesh.
And the sought to ruin the work of Paul in the churches in Galatia and elsewhere.

For sure some of them had believed in Jesus.
But they rebelled against God's new testament economy.
The Judaizers ended up preaching another gospel about another Jesus.
Paul's condemnation of them was strong.

I marvel that you are so quickly removing from Him who has called you in the grace of Christ to a different gospel,
Which is not another gospel, only there are some who trouble you and desire to pervert the gospel of Christ.
But if even we or an angel out of heaven should announce to you a gospel beyond that which we have announced to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, now also I say again, If anyone announces to you a gospel beyond that which you have received, let him be accursed.

The New Testament teaches that we have been made dead and to the law and organically joined to Christ that we might bear fruit unto God.

So then, my brothers, you also have been made dead to the law through the body of Christ so that you might be joined to another, to Him who has been raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit to God. (Rom. 7:4)

The New Testament teaches that we have beed discharged from the law in order to serve God in newness of spirit.

But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that in which we were held, so that we serve in newness of spirit and not in oldness of letter. (v.6)

Because Paul anticipated that this kind of speaking would appall those who so exalted the Torah, he hastens to add
that the law is not sin.

What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! But I did not know sin except through the law; for neither did I know coveting, except the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (v.7)

Covetuousness there is used only as one representative example.
To attempt to keep the law automatically causes a contrarian evil nature to rise up and drag you AWAY and DOWN from doing so.
Hence that is the danger of living by the natural mind and setting the mind on the flesh.

But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, worked out in me coveting of every kind; for without the law sin is dead.
And I was alive without the law once; but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

And the commandment, which was unto life, this very commandment was found to me to be unto death.
For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. (vs. 8-11)

Paul said that he and his o-workers had ZERO confidence in the flesh. Their only confidence was in the indwelling
Spirit. This Spirit they had to learn to live in and by.

For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God
and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3:3)

Now excuse me if I am old fashion and don't notice emoji like faces.
I think you mean to communicate happiness. Praise the Lord.
I must emphasize again though God's new testament economy.

Which law is Paul referring to? There are many laws in scripture and context dictates which law is being referred to. Every time we see the word "law" does not mean its referring to the Ten Commandments. If you look at the context it tells us the law its referring to. The same one spoke about almost all throughout Galatians. Do you think Paul contradicts himself or God? Paul contrasts the law that is being referred to with the commandments of God and said what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 We do need to learn from our brother Paul.

In Romans 7 and 8 there are about four usages of the word law.
There is the law of God outside of man making demands on man.
There is the law of the mind AGREEING with that law of God.
There is the law of sin in the fallen body, automatically dragging man down no matter what his mind agrees with.

Then finally there is the law of the Spirit of life - a Person who is stronger than the law of sin and death in the body.

This is brief. I think if you read chapter 7 and 8 very carefully you can decriminate between these different
usages of law.