Did a traumatic experience make you unchurched?

[discernomatic]

Just wanted to tell that I uploaded a new page on my site today concerning Spiritual Abuse with book reviews and links to helpful sites. For those still hurting, there may be something there to ease your pain. Go to: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Spiritual_Abuse_Links_Resources.html.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Bit harsh Wino, but you may well have apoint... the statistics here in UK definately reflect this... which is why people are leaving church buildings in droves... and from what I have experienced of the almost Islamic-Style Christianity in USA, may be it's true for you lot too!

Being "unChurched" does not mean you have no fellowiship or even church - because the world is Church.

Like I wrote , all one has to do is go to a forum and say/ask "I don't go to church . Must I ?" Most responses will be in the affirmative or will be hostile in the affirmative or attempt reason in the affirmative . This shows that it is of doctrine and law ( for righteousness ) and not about the Lord telling one to do so .

I agree that we are the Church .

 

[nb_christseeker]

well why would someone whos apart of the church dislike going to church, where the rest of the body is?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Edited

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

well why would someone whos apart of the church dislike going to church, where the rest of the body is?

U may wanna check yer grammar and repost?

How do U *go* to something u r a *part* of?

 

[nb_christseeker]

why would a human who is one in spirit with Christ therefore part of the spiritual church body, want to avoid a gathering place where his brothers and sisters who are also apart of that church body gather? happy now? ah, but you were just being facetious.

 

[New_Wineskin]

How do U *go* to something u r a *part* of?

I don't think people can get that - too much handed-down doctrine . Even if people are able to recognize that we are the Church wherever we *are* and therefore we are *at* church wherever we are , they still think that we need to go somewhere to *be* at church .

They also don't see the outright hypocracy when they suggest that things like "don't forsake the assembiling" and membership and "one should not isolate themselves when all of these groups are driven towards isolation from other groups and forsaking the assembly of others . Even those that attempt to be with other groups , that is a *secondary* idea from being with their main group . They still consider that being with their own group is a basic *need* .

 

[Bevlina]

why would a human who is one in spirit with Christ therefore part of the spiritual church body, want to avoid a gathering place where his brothers and sisters who are also apart of that church body gather? happy now? ah, but you were just being facetious.

And, who is avoiding a gathering? We gather in the Name of The Lord. What's the difference? Is there something different about a church with a name?

 

[If Not For Grace]

nb makes perfect sense to me with or without grammer.

We are dealing with a lot of wounded people

That may be the connotation that "Unchurced" represents for me--people wounded by or at church. I'll have to think about that. I was one, but have grown since then....

 

[discernomatic]

why would a human who is one in spirit with Christ therefore part of the spiritual church body, want to avoid a gathering place where his brothers and sisters who are also apart of that church body gather? happy now? ah, but you were just being facetious.

I think that the problem is that some brothers and sisters are not acting as loving as they should. Some are too judgmental, others are not loving at all, still others memorize and repeat Scripture, but do not do what they say, like the Pharisees. All of this and then some, makes some that have been hurt want to stay away from all of that. What is called the Body of Christ is not always what it seems.

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

*church* and *fellowship* can and do exist outside of Christianity,even for Christians!

I am not advocating Religion or even other faiths (necisarily) but I am concenred that *church* is so preoccupied with itself and its fellowshipping and worshipping that we allforgot to follow Jesus into the world.

We are asked to be in the World, the World is just as in need of *fellowship* and *worship* asweare, and just as able to contribute to our lives as we are to them... but this canonly be done thru relationship. For some of us, this we call *church*.

 

[breezynosacek]

I think that the problem is that some brothers and sisters are not acting as loving as they should. Some are too judgmental, others are not loving at all, still others memorize and repeat Scripture, but do not do what they say, like the Pharisees. All of this and then some, makes some that have been hurt want to stay away from all of that. What is called the Body of Christ is not always what it seems.

Good point, and I think accurate as well. Before my prayer partner died, she used to quote, "Christians are the only ones who shoot their own wounded." The first time she said it, I asked her, "But if they were Christians would they shoot?".

Discernomatic caught me off-guard. Never for anything in the world had I considered Paul to be lashing out at me because he was wounded. It's a thought; however, if I had it to do over, I probably would have done the same thing. Why? Because for several days, I continued to hear in my head, "I rebuke you in Jesus' name." And there are a lot of times, that the Lord warns me of something in advance (usually a Scripture passage to help somebody) and it will run through my head like that. Never made a bit of sense to me why Paul would come out shooting for bear about the pentecostals because as far as I knew, nobody was talking about that denomination.

But yeah, a lot of times, people just don't seem to be what they are. I joined this forum a long time ago and I left thinking to never come back because of one thing and one thing only. The moderators were always good about shutting somebody down who disagreed with somebody's pet doctrine, but let somebody be cruel to somebody for no reason at all (if there is ever a valid reason) and that kind of behavior is kindly condoned, or should i say encouraged. So it took me a long time to be willing to come back.

It is bad enough that it occurs on a 'christian forum' but it occurs all of the time in places we call churches.

There is only one thing that I know will ever change that kind of behavior. God has to have somebody confront the pastors or the persons involved and when they don't listen, He judges them. And it isn't just the pastors, I've seen God take others out of the way for disobedience. It's a scary sight. I saw a pastor lose his church, his ministry, his marriage, his money, ALL of it. I was the last (I believe) one sent to warn him. I met another pastor who had been sent to tell him the same exact thing. In just a couple of years, maybe it was less than that, a man who used to be in perfect health, coal black hair, a smile on his face, always dressed perfectly in a suit and tie....when I saw him again, I didn't recognize him, it was the man who was with him that said hello. His hair had turned white, he had a filthy beard halfway down his chest, his clothes looked like they'd been lived in for a couple of months without the use of soap. His face was deeply lined and his eyes...those destitute eyes.

He had first lost his church building, he moved it to another location and it was flooded out within just a short time, ect. ect.

God still judges people. I've seen it too often. It is usually just a matter of time and that in itself can be scary. How long does God allow someone to 'do their own thing' in His name without Him taking notice and doing something to remedy the situation.

For all those who have been wounded, this one, found out that God is faithful to His Word.

 

[breezynosacek]

Just wanted to tell that I uploaded a new page on my site today concerning Spiritual Abuse with book reviews and links to helpful sites. For those still hurting, there may be something there to ease your pain. Go to: http://www.jamesfive19.com/Spiritual_Abuse_Links_Resources.html.

I've got one book listed on your website. Twisted Scriptures is an excellent book. I also have a book, I'm not sure if it is still in print or not, "Finding the Heart to Go On" by Lynn Anderson It's awesome.

One other, but I've got it out on loan so I don't remember who wrote it is, "Spiritual Warfare for the Wounded". It deals with the 'self-talk' that we pick up when we are abused over and over again. How to deal with the 'self-talk' and how to pray. It gives case-studies of people who are in Christian counseling. Most of the time, when someone is wounded in the Church, it seems to be an attack of ole slew foot to reinforce a foothold he already has.

I found that book to really be a lifesaver. I went through a period of time when, without me even realising it, I would say, "I'd be better off if I just killed myself". It didn't matter if I said it outloud or if it was internal talk, the fact that it kept coming back up when people hurt me needed to be dealt with. And when I prayed and asked God where/when it started, I was totally amazed! Anyway, I got rid of it and dealt with an old issue at the same time.

I went through that book, it took several nights of things that God recalled to my memory while reading, and working through them and writing some stuff out, and managed to get a lot of healing.

 

[discernomatic]

Spiritual Warfare for the wounded sounds interesting, Breezy. Could I use your text here if I recommend it? According to the rules here I must then include a link to this page, dunno if you want that. I've heard the term self-talk before, am reading a book aimed at Christians about Misbelief Therapy called Telling Yourself the Truth. The review will be positive, but I have found a few flaws that must be addressed as well.

 

[discernomatic]

Good point, and I think accurate as well. Before my prayer partner died, she used to quote, "Christians are the only ones who shoot their own wounded." The first time she said it, I asked her, "But if they were Christians would they shoot?".

But yeah, a lot of times, people just don't seem to be what they are..... It is bad enough that it occurs on a 'christian forum' but it occurs all of the time in places we call churches.

There is only one thing that I know will ever change that kind of behavior. God has to have somebody confront the pastors or the persons involved and when they don't listen, He judges them. And it isn't just the pastors, I've seen God take others out of the way for disobedience. ...........
He had first lost his church building, he moved it to another location and it was flooded out within just a short time, ect. ect. ............

God still judges people. I've seen it too often. It is usually just a matter of time and that in itself can be scary.........
For all those who have been wounded, this one, found out that God is faithful to His Word.

That was a great post! I have seen God warn and judge people too, in a variety of ways. I got a warning too, not for hurting anyone, but for not doing a blasted thing to grow in Christ; I was also involved in the Word-of-Faith movement and other false doctrine. The thing is that no one likes to be warned, they don't always want to recognize it. Often those that warn are rebuked, lied about and even ostracized from the congregation if their criticism involves the pastor.

From my contacts, I have seen it happen too often. I know someone who is handing his resignation in today, he is a minister, assistant to the pastor and has had a long battle with doubt because of the pastor's manipulative and controlling methods among other things, the man's wife has already left that church and been criticized for it. Even he put pressure on her to return, but has since repented of it. He tried to hang on for the sake of unity in the BoC but has seen that in that case it just won't work.

It is a pity that Christians shoot their own wounded. They are the last ones that should be doing something like that, it makes it even more monstrous. I think that is why they are warned and judged at all like you describe. God is trying to keep his children from the worst side of themselves. We are forgiven, but not yet perfect while on this earth. The good thing is that some listen to the warning and start over the way God wants them to. Often they have a special heart for the kind of people they wounded before and can do much good.

 

[If Not For Grace]

Discon:

I was also involved in the Word-of-Faith movement and other false doctrine.

I have recently become interested in Word-of-Faith and would like to know what you found to be false?

Please folks, this is not meant to ensue any debate, I have respect for D:'s posts & opinions & want to save myself any undue "misconceptions".

Just asking for her opinion--

 

[breezynosacek]

Spiritual Warfare for the wounded sounds interesting, Breezy. Could I use your text here if I recommend it? According to the rules here I must then include a link to this page, dunno if you want that. I've heard the term self-talk before, am reading a book aimed at Christians about Misbelief Therapy called Telling Yourself the Truth. The review will be positive, but I have found a few flaws that must be addressed as well.

I would be interested in what you are referring to as flaws before I give a yes or no answer.

 

[discernomatic]

I would be interested in what you are referring to as flaws before I give a yes or no answer.

Wasn't referring to your book, but to the one I am currently reading. I would include your words exactly as stated.

 

[breezynosacek]

Wasn't referring to your book, but to the one I am currently reading. I would include your words exactly as stated.

Oh, missed that line there, LOL! I've never heard of Misbelief therapy or telling yourself the truth (almost sounds like those New Age affirmations).

But if you are going to link to it, I'll make sure I clarify what I was referring to.

"It deals with the 'self-talk' that we pick up when we are abused over and over again. How to deal with the 'self-talk' and how to pray. "

Let me define what that self-talk is. When we are wounded/abused, Satan will slip a lie in there and if we don't check it at the door of our thought life, we often times find that this uncontested thought ends up getting repeated, not so much by the devil, but by ourselves.

We will repeat that lie to ourselves until we own what we went through (the pain), how it affected us and confront the lie with the Truth. It has nothing to do with affirmations, which is simply another term for brainwashing.

So, now that I made totally clear what I am referring to, link away!

 

[discernomatic]

I have recently become interested in Word-of-Faith and would like to know what you found to be false?

Sure dyanm, here is an excerpt from something I have already written about it:

What are some Word-of-Faith concepts in a nutshell?

Word-of-Faith is more or less the practice of positive confession in a Christian package. It is not an official movement as such, but some proponents of it are very popular, such as Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Marilyn Hickey, Joyce Meyer.... I am not saying that everything that they preach would be false, but the Word of Faith doctrine is not biblical. They believe that the words that they speak whether good or bad can have an effect on their surroundings, kind of like a magic spell. The difference they say, is that God makes their words come true. But God cannot be made to perform as if he were our servant. It is the other way around, He is our master. Romans 9 contains much about the sovereignty of God, here are verses 15 and 16. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

The Word-of-Faith proponents are perhaps unknowingly making use of a very old concept called gnosticism. Gnosticism includes a wide range of beliefs, some of them being:

1. salvation is not by faith but by knowledge - gnostics are "those that know"

2. one returns to the parent spirit through repentance and the undoing of the sin of material existence, becoming one with it or becoming like it - in power as well as knowledge

3. salvation is a process (not by faith), the aquisition of wisdom leads to a return to the former state, by some seen in Adam and Eve. Some compare the revelations of the Holy Spirit to wisdom - Sophia.

4. An image of a perfect man called the Beginning, the Name of God, the Logos, immortal, incorruptible. This is a concept that has misused the person of Jesus Christ and applies it to all men. Christian theology says that we will all become sons of God, albeit adopted - status without power. Gnosticistic Christianity would say that we become just like God - status and power. That is what Satan wanted and why he was thrown out of heaven.

The "Name of Jesus" plays a large role in these ministries. Jesus' name contains his essence, so they say, by using it one starts becoming it.

The gnostic terms are seldom mentioned in sermons or books by the Word-of-Faith proponents, but they are couched in the more familiar biblical terminology, a sort of doublespeak. What they say and what you hear may not be the same thing.

The word "faith" for instance may take on a different meaning. "Faith is a power force. It is a tangible force. It is a conductive force", Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Faith, p. 13. "The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation", p. 18.

Hebrews 11 contains a list of what some have done by faith, but it is not defined as a force or power. Verse 1 says, "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Having faith is believing, but even belief is not initiated by man, but by God if we consider the passage of Romans 9:16 above.

"The work of God is this: to believe in the one that he has sent." John 6:29.

"An this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us." 1 John 3:23.

The proponents say that faith is a force released by our actions, but the bible says differently.

"I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ - the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith." Our actions and words are and expression of faith, but they by no means release a power. They are evidence of faith and righteousness. Philippians 3:8,9.

The Word-of-Faith adherents believe in being cursed by sickness, demons or the words of others. Spiritual Warfare may then be required to "break the bonds" and "overcome". This then takes them a step further, sometimes they use their words to curse, citing the passage about the fruit tree that Jesus cursed because it had no fruit. I call that the flip-side of the Word-of-Faith coin. Pat Robertson has made public use of that concept as has Benny Hinn, causing embarassment throughout Christiandom. Jesus did rebuke the Pharisees, but he was speaking of what he could see in their hearts as one with the power to judge. We, however, cannot see into the hearts of others and cannot pass judgment over their souls, Jesus being the only one with authority to do that. We are commanded to love and be merciful and watchful I might add.

Some related subjects to gnosticism are pantheism, theosophy and alchemy. Other related subjects to Word-of-Faith are Spiritual Mapping and Spiritual Warfare and the Church Growth Movement.