Let me just make sure I understand your logic here. In verse 10 the books are opened and in verse 11 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire. In Revelation 20 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire first, and then the books are opened.
So are you saying that because the sequence appears to be reversed here, that therefore this is a different event?
And if there is no specific mention of rewards in that particular chapter then that invalidates everything I've said? Even if the reward (eternal life) is implied?
You're forming your own narrative with pieces of the Bible.
You said that the saints in Revelation 20 were murdered for refusing to take the mark of the beast. Now you're using Rev 13 to support that statement. Let's look at what both those chapters actually say.
Rev 13 says that those who would not worship the beast should be killed.
Rev 20 says the ones sitting on thrones were beheaded for Christ. They had not taken the mark.
Revelation 13 does not say how they should be killed.
Revelation 13 does not say who should kill them.
Revelation 13 could be entirely symbolic.
Revelation 20 could be entirely symbolic.
Revelation 20 does not say they were killed because they refused to take the mark.
Revelation 20 does not say they were killed by the beast.
In a court of law you would have circumstantial evidence at best and my client would be acquitted of all charges.
How many Christians do you think are being or have ever been beheaded for Jesus? And do you mean to tell me that only those who were beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ? And the other billions of Christians who ever lived will not have that honour because maybe they died of natural causes or in car accidents or in battle or through any other of a myriad of possible causes, including being burned to death in the belly of a ceramic pig, or starved to death by Stalin or crucified by the Romans?
Do you really think that this one very specific way of dying (beheading), God would reward with the authority to rule, over all other ways a Christian might have died over the years? Are those who died of other causes deemed not worthy, through no fault of their own, though they too may have been murdered for their testimony of Jesus? Do you really think that's the way God operates?
Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28-29
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
It literally says there will be "a resurrection of both".
ewq1938 said: ↑
So how many times is Jesus supposed to come to the Earth since he ascended? Once in Ad 70 and at least one more time?
Jesus has been here since before the beginning. Interacting with Israel in the Old Testament, He came in the flesh in the New Testament and He will come again ONCE for His Bride on the last day.
I am a partial preterist so we will not see it the same way.
Blessings
I can see how that could be confusing as I also see 1st century Jerusalem and it's Temple in RevelationWell, I did ask "how many times is Jesus supposed to come to the Earth since he ascended?" not how many times before the acsension. The point is to figure out how many times Jesus leaves heaven to come to the Earth since you believe Rev 19 is about Ad70 and Rev 19 clearly shows Jesus leaving heaven and fighting people on Earth. That would mean you believe t5eh second coming would be Ad 70 and a third coming for the bride. Naturally my point would be there is only one time since the acsension that Jesus will leave heaven and return to the Earth.
Yes, it lists those two but it also says that all who are in their graves will come to life in one hour. How do you explain that?Doesn't show that at all in fact it shows two resurrections:
1. the resurrection of life
2. the resurrection of damnation
That's two different types of resurrections even listed in chronological order perfectly matching what we find in Rev 20.
Actually DavidPT said "Christians are literally beheaded for their faith in Christ, even in this present day and time we live in. You seem to make light of that fact, since you indicated earlier that being beheaded is to be understood symbolically in Revelation 20:4 and not literally instead.".Nice strawman but no one claims only being beheaded is the way to reign with Christ.
Innocent until proven guilty.Who are you representing, the beast? You seem to argue that the beast is not guilty of killing the saints. Why defend the beast in this imaginary court scenario?
On the contrary. When it says anyone who's name was not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire, the implication is that anyone who's name is found in the book of life rewarded with eternal life. That's why it's called "the book of life".There is no implication of anyone being rewarded. Lack of any saved people being there, or any rewards contrasted against the clear punishment shown damages your position and strengthens that there was a previous judgment of the saved.
I understand your logic but it's pretty weak evidence to be honest.Yes. This is the judgment of the saved not the unsaved as I said in that post.
Yes, it lists those two but it also says that all who are in their graves will come to life in one hour. How do you explain that?
Ok so the following verse are a symbolic coming not a literal one?
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
So since you place this in Ad70 there is no Jesus or heavenly armies....it's all just symbolism for Roman armies killing Jews?
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Also, who exactly is the beast and false prophet here and since it's the Roman's doing the killing, are they defeating the beast and it's army? Do they cast the beast and FP into the LOF?
On the contrary. When it says anyone who's name was not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire, the implication is that anyone who's name is found in the book of life rewarded with eternal life.
I understand your logic but it's pretty weak evidence to be honest.
I would tend to agree.On the contrary. When it says anyone who's name was not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire, the implication is that anyone who's name is found in the book of life rewarded with eternal life. That's why it's called "the book of life".
I agree and add, how is satan imprisoned with a seal over it and bound with a chain which means not on a leash like a dog but wrapped up with a chain meaning he cannot move at all inside of a sealed prison/pit/hole.
Also, in what sense are not the nations not deceived?
Why don't the nations come up to Jerusalem to worship as scripture predicted they would?
Who is claiming they don't?
Let's approach this from another angle. If you believe that all the righteous are judged at the beginning of the thousand years and at the end of the thousand years we see only the wicked, then you must believe that not a single person is saved during the entire thousand year period. Is that what you believe? If not, then when are those righteous people judged?Yes but not one verse in the passage refers to anyone found in the book of life. The only ones depicted there are those not found in the book of life which is the entire point of the final judgment. The ones found in the book of life were already judged. None of the dead judged there come from heaven which is where the dead in Christ currently reside. That is because the dead coming from death, hell and the depths of the sea are all unsaved and lost souls. Not to mention all the dead in Christ rise at the same time, not some before the thousand years and the rest after it.
By the time we get to the last judgment, the only people who are "dead" are the spiritually dead. The dead in Christ are already immortals and already judged.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?