'Devil's Advocate' for Amillenialism

DreamerOfTheHeart

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This happens when Jesus the Crowned Monarch blows the 7th Trumpet of God and declares by that Trumpet Time no longer. The two worlds collide, the old heavens and the old earth are no more and then the new 3rd heaven and the New Jerusalem comes into view and continues forever. Spiritual and biological death is no more. Hell and Satan is no more. Jesus reign is a mission accomplished through his Cross and now he becomes subject to the Father who put everything under him.

It is possibly true that the City which descends from Heaven is a prologue, which happens before literally before the Millennium, though, in the text, it is presented after the Millennium. After all, the mountain from which the rock is carved out 'not by human hands' and falls onto the statue of Daniel causing it to collapse must happen before the Millennium.

That Mountain the rock comes from is the 'throne of God' on earth, it is the Kingdom of God, from which Jesus comes. Jesus is the one who 'smashes the nations' as 'pots of clay', just as Jesus is also that rock which smashes the the 'feet of iron mixed with clay'.

Then, Jesus is revealed from Heaven, with the still blowing of the Last Trumpet, and the first resurrection happens. Only after the beast and false prophet are destroyed.

The successor of the Iron Legs of the Roman Empire is the 'Holy Roman Empire', which is iron, mixed in with the clay, of the 'Catholic Church'.
 
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BABerean2

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As to their souls, likely the scene would be heaven. But when they live again, thus reign with Christ a thousand years, they are no longer souls without physical bodies at that point. No bodily resurrections occur in heaven prior to the 2nd coming, nor at anytime for that matter. Jesus will have already left heaven when anyone bodily rises from the grave. Clearly, these in Revelation 20:4, they are resurrected, not before they die, but after they have died. The only resurrection after they have died that makes sense, is a bodily resurrection.

I was dead, but now I am alive, based on the verse below.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5.
The first is spiritual.

The second resurrection found in John chapter 5, is found in John 5:27-30.

The second is the "hour" of the bodily resurrection and judgment of "all" the dead.
The timing of that event is found in Revelation 11:18.

.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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In what sense is Satan bound today? It's hard to argue that when you can see the wheels coming off with your very eyes.

To be clear, I am not an amillenialist, as I carefully stated in my post. I also stated I can smash all of those arguments I made.

Satan has, most clearly, not been bound, in such a way that he no longer deceives the nations, not now, as of this writing, and not anywhere in this past two thousand years. That is one of the strongest arguments against the amillenialists.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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That would be a minority view among amill theologians, I think. The general amill view is that the "first resurrection" refers to dead Christians, who are now "reigning with Christ" in heaven.

The amill view would be that Revelation applies to the whole of human history, including things that are still in the future. So Revelation 12:4 describes the fall of Satan (in the distant past) as well as Satan's attempts to defeat Jesus here on earth (described in the Bible). Amill theologians disagree on exactly which things are past and which are future, and in general they spend less time on details of Revelation than premill theologians do. The main purpose of Revelation, in the amill view, is to encourage Christians (initially, the persecuted Christians at the time it was written) to believe that God has a plan, and that Satan has already lost the war.

Though those two responses were to other posters, it is a good reminder and clarification.

While I have strong condemnations of the Catholic Church and related theologies concerning the Millennium having already come, at the same time, I moderate that view with the fact that we should take Babylon as being something people are called to come out of. This ties in with the Babylonian exile of the Jews, to the head of the statue of Daniel.

It is also better for them that they do say "I do not know" on key parts of end times prophecy in Scripture, though many have been hardened in this or that belief, especially those who have to defend it.

That paragraph expresses the amill view quite well.

(That last statement is in regard to what I wrote, from a 'devil's advocate' standpoint, 'Jesus brought the Kingdom of God, the very Kingdom of Heaven, with him, when he came the first time. Anyone who is given the Spirit of God, and born again, enters into that very Kingdom. That Kingdom has existed, unquestionably, since the time of the giving of the Spirit to the Twelve Apostles, shortly before the ascension of Jesus to Heaven. And, shortly after his death and resurrection from the dead.')

The Kingdom was brought at that time, and Satan was driven out of the Kingdom. That is represented by Satan being in the Abyss, though you see he is released and this effects the first, second, and third woes. I do attribute the name 'the Destroyer' to Satan, because I know that is who he is and what his name is. You saw him before, as he was the one God had kill the firstborn of Egypt.

Something happens to start the first woe, which enlightens Satan, and so gives him information he had been blocked from having through all those years.

His domain is the Abyss, as 'there is no truth in him', he is of darkness.

He is locked up before the Millennium begins, this time, in such a way, that 'he can no longer deceive the nations', and released only again, at the end of it. When he was locked up in the Abyss before, he was locked up in such a way that he certainly could continue to deceive the nations.
 
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LastSeven

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You asked when someone would be judged IF they were saved in the thousand years and I said they could be judged the day they are saved, and that could be everyday if someone was to be saved every day but this is just an answer to the hypothetical question you asked.

I personally don't believe anyone dies in the thousand years based on something Daniel wrote concerning lives being prolonged.
Whether they die or not, don't you believe that people can come to Christ during the thousand years? So then how can they be judged righteous at the end of the thousand years if, as according to you, that judgment is only for the wicked?

I think if you think things through it becomes apparent pretty quickly that your position doesn't really make sense. You're missing something.
You forgot to underline "with justice" which would be a criminal judgment indicating the final judgment of the "rest of the dead" who were not worthy of being in the first resurrection.
You don't think rewarding the righteous is considered "just"?

Remember, Rev 20 indicates two judgements so nothing in scripture is going to contradict that because scripture never contradicts scripture.
Actually I don't remember that at all. Rev 20 does not say there are two judgments. You said there are two judgments.
 
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LastSeven

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What manner of argument can you make for pre-millenialism? Can you do a paper on pre-millenialism, as I just did on amillenialism? Have you given it any thought, or are you just believing what people told you to believe?

Are you for or against critical thinking?
Critical thinking is crucial for understanding scripture. Personally I was a pre-millenialist for years as that is what I was taught. Nobody taught me amillenialism, and even to this day I don't have a single personal relationship with another amil. I didn't even know there was a name for it until after I started believing it. My friends and family all think I'm crazy but I came to believe it after carefully studying the Bible.

You believe in amillenialism, but can you make the level of arguments for it, I have made? And, I only wrote this when I finally became convinced it was wrong.
But what convinced you? Why do you believe it's wrong?
 
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LastSeven

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Here's at least one problem with this thinking. If nations equal Gentiles, and that Gentiles equals the unsaved, well the Gentiles are hardly the only group that has unsaved ones. What about Jews? Are all of them saved? Are Jews and Gentiles the same thing?
Unsaved Jews are gentiles. A gentile is anyone who is not a member of Israel, aka the body of Christ, aka the kingdom of God.
 
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LastSeven

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What I think is, the beheadings in Revelation 20:4 can be taken in a literal sense. Maybe it can be symbolic as well, so maybe it can mean both then. Unless I misunderstood you, your argument seemed to be that it can only be understood symbolically. And if that is true, what about Christians who have literally been beheaded, even in our day and time? What about their loved ones still alive after they were beheaded? Do you think any of them think the beheading of them wasn't literal but was only symbolic instead?
There's a difference between symbolic language and symbolic events. I'm not saying a beheading is a symbolic event. I'm saying Revelation 20 uses symbolic language to represent a spiritual event.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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Critical thinking is crucial for understanding scripture. Personally I was a pre-millenialist for years as that is what I was taught. Nobody taught me amillenialism, and even to this day I don't have a single personal relationship with another amil. I didn't even know there was a name for it until after I started believing it. My friends and family all think I'm crazy but I came to believe it after carefully studying the Bible.

But what convinced you? Why do you believe it's wrong?

This is good, and a good way to go, as I have gone the same way, though I was very fortunate that my adopted family did not push religion on me, though my birth family did. Hahaha.

(I did have influence, before I read the Bible all the way through, in my early twenties, the early 90s, and my adopted family is Christian. The first book I wrote, in fact, was called 'Heaven Touches Hell On Earth', which I finished when I was 18. And it borrowed heavily from the Bible, but I had merely page turned to get that inspiration.)

(I mention that book, by title, because it does show I had some manner of belief that Heaven touching Hell, on earth, is some manner of possibility, even back then, in the late 80s.)

Really, I studied pretty exhaustively, histories of the Church, through Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox eyes, way back in the 90s, but have continued that viewpoint ever since. [Trust fund enabled me to do so, and since then, easy jobs and grace of God.] The Protestant way, I found, by far, the most impressive. I did not find much error in the Orthodox viewpoints, however, as expressed in the Philokalia, or in later, Russian and Eastern European books.

I had saved the Bible for last, before that having studied just about everything else to try and figure out what was going on. [I still do so, in fact, just a few years ago, read every book Dawkins ever wrote, and Sagan's book on atheism.]

...

Really, I have only become entirely convinced that 'the Millennium has not happened yet', just in the past few weeks, and that from largely talking to amillenialists. Partly, the influence of pre-Millenialists here, as well.

I leaned pre-millienalism since the mid-90s, but continued to entertain the possibility or amillenialism or post-millenialism, until now. These past few weeks.

I think, the biggest problem, is there simply is no reason to believe the Millennium has already begun. So, the flimsy arguments of the amillenialists have persuaded me, as they did not have anything more solid.

Certainly, my studies of the Catholic Church and "Holy" Roman Empire led to that. Historically speaking, but also in terms of of doctrine. That is why I leaned away. If you must include the Catholic Church and 'Holy Roman Empire' to justify the Millennium has already begun, then you really are basing it on the legitimacy of those empires and that particular church.

The arguments that the 'harlot of Babylon' is 'the Catholic Church' is strong, that also has contributed to my leaning. For instance, Isaiah 47 , and this wiki summation, which, currently, I find to be fair and encapsulates some of the main arguments.

But, ultimately, there is no reason for the Millennium having already happened. If they have no reason, then why profess it? Especially, as the Beast figures prominently in the two mere paragraphs arguing it? Worse, the binding of Satan, so 'he deceives the nations no longer' is stated, as well.

While these two paragraphs do not state the Beast is any longer with them, this certainly can be said to be implied. As the very paragraph before this chapter shows the beast as being destroyed. And, why, on earth, mention the beast at all, when you are only going to spend two paragraphs on the 1000 years, if the beast has not even come yet?

Is God a god of order, or disorder? Is this some manner of disinformation, which was required to trick Satan? Why would God have a need to do that? God is certainly vague in much of Revelation, not even detailing the identity of Jesus directly in many places, but being vague and giving outright disinformation are two very, very different things.


I suppose, further, the rest of Revelation, I do not feel is as much as a mystery to me, as I did in years past. My birth family helped persuade me of that. When it is all a mystery, then it appears as chaotic, and as if anything could be true.

But, it is not chaotic, there are the opening of the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the three woes, the seven censers: one event precedes another, and a lot of care and concern was put into making that clear. While some may overlap with others, they are not taken out of order in their own.

This clear ordering may be broken, once all the trumpets have sounded, and all the seals have been broken, and all the censers have been dropped, and all the three woes have been finished. So, I could see, before, how someone could argue that the Millennium began before all of those things have been finished. But, then, the Devil is locked up to not deceive the nations any longer, and at least some - if not all - of those who are resurrected, 'were beheaded by the Beast'.

So, that continuity continues.

There is no reason to break it.

What reasons to break it might remain? I believe, the most difficult reason for people, is that the Seventh Trumpet has sounded, and so true believers have been 'caught up in the air' with Christ. A spiritual rapture.

So, they do have some sense of reigning with Christ and God already.

I think, for me, that was my main stumbling block, as well. And why I have felt that we are reigning, spiritually.

Why we feel an ownership on earth.

I believe, however, this has happened relatively lately, and not in the far past, and it had nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
 
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ToServe

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I can think of at least one thing that might hinder this.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Even though this obviously includes more people than Jesus was talking to at the time, the ones He was saying this to at the time though, all of them are long dead and gone. Verse 3---- I will come again, and receive you unto myself---appears to be referring to the 2nd coming. But if they instead are already physically with Him before He comes again, where He then at that time receives them unto Himself, which then equals, that where I am, there ye may be also, how is one to make sense of that?

Excellent! A valid point and one that I will attempt at answering.

If you read John Chapter 14, you will discern that the focal point of the chapter is the giving of the Holy Spirit. The opening paragraph emphasises two pertinent promises of hope that Jesus gives his disciples who remain after he is crucified. These are as follows -

1) I go to prepare a place for you in my Father's house.
2) You know the way to the place where I am going.

The promised place being prepared for his disciples in his Father's house alludes to the 3rd Heaven, but to get to arrive at his Father's house, the disciples are told that they know the way to the place where he is going.

When we exegete this paragraph we realise that the disciples were bewildered at this point because they did not really know what Jesus was talking about and this is revealed when they question him “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

So, Jesus is prophetically revealing to his disciples, when their time comes to follow him to that place that Jesus is going to, first in order to prepare the place for them. This is Calvary, where he is to be crucified. Jesus knew that his disciples will follow him to their deaths and this is the place where they too will follow him to, then afterwards they will be gathered just as in the account of Saint Stephan in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 7:55-60). John 14:19 says "Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live." So Jesus is pointing to his Cross at Calvary where he will be killed and the world will see him no more, with the exception of his disciples who will follow him to the same place, that is their calvary and then to see him as he is in his glorified body, when they too put on their glorified bodies and to be with him where he is in the afterlife, after the earthly body is destroyed.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:2)

I will continue with another post.....to be continued.........
 
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ewq1938

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Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev_6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.

John saw "the souls" of those who were beheaded.


.

Doesn't have to mean they were bodiless souls.


1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Same here. Peter isn't saying Noah and his family were bodiless souls in heaven. The word soul has two meanings. One means the soul within a persons body, the other means the entire person, body soul and spirit.

In Rev John sees souls as in full persons, body soul and spirit. They had been dead but he sees them live again which is a resurrection.
 
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ewq1938

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I was dead, but now I am alive, based on the verse below.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

This is the first resurrection found in John chapter 5.
The first is spiritual.

Resurrection means to "stand up" and is only related to a physical coming back to life. What is found in John is not a resurrection but a spiritual rebirth and goes on to say it was even happening at that time then later in verse 29 he switches to the physical resurrection of the dead which is the type of resurrection Rev 20 speaks of. The spiritual rebirth or being born again going from spiritual death to spiritual life is not found in Rev 20. It speaks only of physical resurrections of two groups of the dead.
 
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ewq1938

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Whether they die or not, don't you believe that people can come to Christ during the thousand years? So then how can they be judged righteous at the end of the thousand years if, as according to you, that judgment is only for the wicked?

I already said hypothetically that is is possible they can be judged during the thousand years. The last judgment is only those who are dead...and they are all called dead despite being resurrected back to physical life. So, they are called dead because they are spiritually dead.


I think if you think things through it becomes apparent pretty quickly that your position doesn't really make sense. You're missing something.


That applies to the Amil doctrine. All of the positions Amil takes have fatal flaws to them. Amil doesn't even admit there are two resurrections and judgments in Rev 20 despite it being clear "the rest of the dead lived not" proves a group did live again, and that this second group would live again later found in Rev 20:12-13. There is always a resurrection in relation to a judgment so we do see two judgments and two resurrections in Rev 20.



Actually I don't remember that at all. Rev 20 does not say there are two judgments. You said there are two judgments.

You are only proving what I said in the above to the last quote. It is not "me" saying there are two judgments (and resurrections), John describes the two resurrections and judgments in Rev 20 as I clearly have pointed out.
 
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BABerean2

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Resurrection means to "stand up" and is only related to a physical coming back to life. What is found in John is not a resurrection but a spiritual rebirth and goes on to say it was even happening at that time then later in verse 29 he switches to the physical resurrection of the dead which is the type of resurrection Rev 20 speaks of. The spiritual rebirth or being born again going from spiritual death to spiritual life is not found in Rev 20. It speaks only of physical resurrections of two groups of the dead.

Which type of resurrection is found in the verse below?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.
 
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ewq1938

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Which type of resurrection is found in the verse below?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.


I don't see the word resurrection there nor a resurrection described there but a judgment of the dead always has a resurrection.

The saved dead are going to be judged when Christ returns, the dead in Christ are judged at the second coming. That's what is being spoken of highlighted in black. The people being destroyed are those that are killed by Christ as seen in Rev 19.
 
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LastSeven

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Amil doesn't even admit there are two resurrections and judgments in Rev 20 despite it being clear "the rest of the dead lived not" proves a group did live again, and that this second group would live again later found in Rev 20:12-13.
"The rest of the dead lived not", does not require that only the wicked take part in the second resurrection. The righteous take part in both resurrections, the wicked only the second. Nothing in Rev 20 precludes that possibility.

There is always a resurrection in relation to a judgment...
You say that as though we have so many examples in scripture.
 
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thesunisout

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To be clear, I am not an amillenialist, as I carefully stated in my post. I also stated I can smash all of those arguments I made.

Satan has, most clearly, not been bound, in such a way that he no longer deceives the nations, not now, as of this writing, and not anywhere in this past two thousand years. That is one of the strongest arguments against the amillenialists.

I feel an even stronger argument is how is it possible that everyone missed God judging the world by fire and the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ?
 
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ewq1938

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"The rest of the dead lived not", does not require that only the wicked take part in the second resurrection.

It does if "the dead in Christ rise first" which means all at the same time. Any other dead would be the unsaved.

The righteous take part in both resurrections, the wicked only the second. Nothing in Rev 20 precludes that possibility.

Nothing in the bible supports any saved dead still being considered dead in second. Plus as I mentioned, why does the second resurrection refer to people as dead after they have been resurrected?


You say that as though we have so many examples in scripture.

I didn'y imply a great number. Only the fact that where a judgement is, so is a resurrection and I am speaking in the context of Rev 20 where we find two of each separated by a thousand years.
 
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ewq1938

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I feel an even stronger argument is how is it possible that everyone missed God judging the world by fire and the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ?


Amil believes those things are still future events.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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I feel an even stronger argument is how is it possible that everyone missed God judging the world by fire and the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Not something that would hit them, as they don't claim the second coming has happened, yet. They believe that happens at the end of the Millennium.

But, it is true, the "second coming", actually very clearly happens at the start of the Millennium.
 
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