'Devil's Advocate' for Amillenialism

[ewq1938]

The books are opened and all are judged according to those books at Christ's return. There is no rock unturned and no person born that is not accounted for, for the sea gave up its dead alluding that even the dead at the bottom of the sea will be judged and will not escape Christ's judgement.

As I said, the problem with this theory is the lack of any saved people or rewards given to them at the last judgment. We only see the unsaved there being judged from what's in the books. They come from hell and death to be judged. Yes also from the sea but that's the depths, dark places....the saved do not come from such places not to mention the saved were judged before the thousand years began according to the first verses in Rev 20.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Well, I did ask "how many times is Jesus supposed to come to the Earth since he ascended?" not how many times before the acsension. The point is to figure out how many times Jesus leaves heaven to come to the Earth since you believe Rev 19 is about Ad70 and Rev 19 clearly shows Jesus leaving heaven and fighting people on Earth. That would mean you believe t5eh second coming would be Ad 70 and a third coming for the bride. Naturally my point would be there is only one time since the acsension that Jesus will leave heaven and return to the Earth.

Maybe study Jewish idioms. That will help you understand symbolism. Jesus will come only one more time for His Bride and that is the END. All will face judgment some will have everlasting life and others will be sent to the lake of fire. All to happen on the last day.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus will come only one more time for His Bride and that is the END.

Yes but you do believe he came in Ad70 as per the wording in Rev 19, correct?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Maybe study Jewish idioms. That will help you understand symbolism. Jesus will come only one more time for His Bride and that is the END. All will face judgment some will have everlasting life and others will be sent to the lake of fire. All to happen on the last day.

Continue.....All the rest of His appearances are symbolic for war under His wrath.
Read my Isaiah quote above.

 

[ToServe]

Jesus is reigning today and the proof is in the pudding as we see the peoples of all nations coming to him on their own volition.

We see Jesus reigning in the lives of billions throughout all generations past, present and future. All these Living Stones are presented before the Lord as the Daily Sacrifice and an offering through the Son to the Father.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God--this is your true and proper worship. (Romans 12:1)

We can easily discern that Jesus has been reigning in the hearts and minds of generations past, present and future and his reign is not limited to a finite time in an alleged future limited 1000 years reign, as he has been reigning for 2000 years thus far and continues to reign to this date, without needing to use violent means to overthrow the beastly nations through warfare. He is winning one soul at a time under the nose of the beastly nations.

The teachings of Christ and his eight beatitudes dismiss the pre-millennium earthly reign as a diametrically opposite doctrine that undermines the power of the Cross and the Power and authority of the Holy Spirit.

 

[ewq1938]

Continue.....All the rest of His appearances are symbolic for war under His wrath.
Read my Isaiah quote above.

Ok so the following verse are a symbolic coming not a literal one?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So since you place this in Ad70 there is no Jesus or heavenly armies....it's all just symbolism for Roman armies killing Jews?


Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Also, who exactly is the beast and false prophet here and since it's the Roman's doing the killing, are they defeating the beast and it's army? Do they cast the beast and FP into the LOF?

 

[ToServe]

As I said, the problem with this theory is the lack of any saved people or rewards given to them at the last judgment. We only see the unsaved there being judged from what's in the books. They come from hell and death to be judged. Yes also from the sea but that's the depths, dark places....the saved do not come from such places not to mention the saved were judged before the thousand years began according to the first verses in Rev 20.

The saved are being raised and are taking part in the first resurrection until Christ's reign is complete, so that after all those Gentiles come to be fully accounted for in the Book of Life before it is unveiled as it explicitly states in Rev 20. The unsaved are those throughout the generations who lived not until Christ's reign to get his numbers (the wheat in bundles) from his harvest is complete, then those serving in Hell are discarded with Satan and the 1st earth and the 1st heavens.

 

[DavidPT]

The books are opened and all are judged according to those books at Christ's return. There is no rock unturned and no person born that is not accounted for, for the sea gave up its dead alluding that even the dead at the bottom of the sea will be judged and will not escape Christ's judgement.

In Revelation 20:11-15 only the dead are in view. They are of course alive when being judged, that being because they are resurrected back to life, but before they are, they all are physically dead, IOW in their graves.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Now explain how these in verse 17 end up at the great white throne judgment among the dead where every single one present at that judgment have been resurrected from their graves.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[DavidPT]

The saved are being raised and are taking part in the first resurrection until Christ's reign is complete, so that after all those Gentiles come to be fully accounted for in the Book of Life before it is unveiled as it explicitly states in Rev 20. The unsaved are those throughout the generations who lived not until Christ's reign to get his numbers (the wheat in bundles) from his harvest is complete, then those serving in Hell are discarded with Satan and the 1st earth and the 1st heavens.

Jesus only required one resurrection in order to live again. Amil believes and teaches that Christians require two resurrections in order to live again. A resurrection means to live again. Once someone lives again they don't need to be resurrected yet again, to live yet again. As per the first resurrection in Revelation 20, they already live again at that point. They don't need to live yet again, be resurrected yet again. Take note who it is that lives again. It is the souls John sees in Revelation 20:4. They live again after they have already physically died. None of them already live again before they physically die, because if they did, why did they physically die then?

 

[LastSeven]

We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.

Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Let me just make sure I understand your logic here. In verse 10 the books are opened and in verse 11 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire. In Revelation 20 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire first, and then the books are opened.

So are you saying that because the sequence appears to be reversed here, that therefore this is a different event?

 

[LastSeven]

Show us in Rev 20 where the saved are resurrected or judged and receive any positive rewards.

And if there is no specific mention of rewards in that particular chapter then that invalidates everything I've said? Even if the reward (eternal life) is implied?

 

[DavidPT]

Let me just make sure I understand your logic here. In verse 10 the books are opened and in verse 11 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire. In Revelation 20 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire first, and then the books are opened.

So are you saying that because the sequence appears to be reversed here, that therefore this is a different event?

I think the point is this. The beast is cast into the LOF at the 2nd coming, followed by the remnant being slain by Christ. If the latter chronologically follows the former, until the latter is fulfilled first, there cannot yet be the great white throne judgment. That judgment requires that the dead be dead first, then raised back to life. Those in Revelation 19:21 are not even dead when Jesus initially returns, but end up dead once He has returned and fulfills Revelation 19:21, after having dealt with the beast and fp first.

 

[LastSeven]

It does say that:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

A reference to this:

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

You're forming your own narrative with pieces of the Bible. You said that the saints in Revelation 20 were murdered for refusing to take the mark of the beast. Now you're using Rev 13 to support that statement. Let's look at what both those chapters actually say.

Rev 13 says that those who would not worship the beast should be killed.
Rev 20 says the ones sitting on thrones were beheaded for Christ. They had not taken the mark.

I can see how, reading it like a mystery novel, it would be easy (some might even say obvious) that the beast is guilty of murder, but as detectives we have to be objective.

Consider the following:

Revelation 13 does not say how they should be killed.
Revelation 13 does not say who should kill them.
Revelation 13 could be entirely symbolic.
Revelation 20 could be entirely symbolic.
Revelation 20 does not say they were killed because they refused to take the mark.
Revelation 20 does not say they were killed by the beast.

In a court of law you would have circumstantial evidence at best and my client would be acquitted of all charges.

 

[DavidPT]

And if there is no specific mention of rewards in that particular chapter then that invalidates everything I've said? Even if the reward (eternal life) is implied?

Are you meaning in Revelation 20:11-15? If yes, why would they need to be rewarded with eternal life there if they were already rewarded with eternal life at the last trump, plus the fact that the last trump obviously precedes the great white throne judgment?

 

[LastSeven]

Christians are literally beheaded for their faith in Christ, even in this present day and time we live in. You seem to make light of that fact, since you indicated earlier that being beheaded is to be understood symbolically in Revelation 20:4 and not literally instead.

How many Christians do you think are being or have ever been beheaded for Jesus? And do you mean to tell me that only those who were beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ? And the other billions of Christians who ever lived will not have that honour because maybe they died of natural causes or in car accidents or in battle or through any other of a myriad of possible causes, including being burned to death in the belly of a ceramic pig, or starved to death by Stalin or crucified by the Romans?

Do you really think that this one very specific way of dying (beheading), God would reward with the authority to rule, over all other ways a Christian might have died over the years? Are those who died of other causes deemed not worthy, through no fault of their own, though they too may have been murdered for their testimony of Jesus? Do you really think that's the way God operates?

 

[DavidPT]

How many Christians do you think are being or have ever been beheaded for Jesus? And do you mean to tell me that only those who were beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ? And the other billions of Christians who ever lived will not have that honour because maybe they died of natural causes or in car accidents or in battle or through any other of a myriad of possible causes, including being burned to death in the belly of a ceramic pig, or starved to death by Stalin or crucified by the Romans?

Do you really think that this one very specific way of dying (beheading), God would reward with the authority to rule, over all other ways a Christian might have died over the years? Are those who died of other causes deemed not worthy, through no fault of their own, though they too may have been murdered for their testimony of Jesus? Do you really think that's the way God operates?

It doesn't matter how many actually are, what counts though, is that some actually are literally beheaded because they follow Christ , thus meaning the beheadings in Revelation 20:4 can indeed be taken in the literal sense.

 

[LastSeven]

Neither say at the same time and you are ignoring "the dead in Christ rise first". Not to mention the two groups of dead that Rev 20 speaks of not happening at the same time.

Because he would speak of it to John as part of Rev.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28-29
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

It literally says there will be "a resurrection of both". It doesn't say there will be two resurrections nor does it say there will be "a resurrection for each". It says there will be "a resurrection of both".

The second verse says "the hour is coming". Not two hours, but one hour. It also says "all that are in their graves shall come forth". It doesn't say "some" or "the wicked" or "the righteous". No, it says "all".

It really doesn't get much clearer than this, and for you or anybody to try to ignore or change or explain away what it so clearly says is a real shame.

And no, I am not ignoring "the dead in Christ rise first". I've already explained that it was in relation to those who are still living, not in relation to the wicked dead so that is a flimsy argument.

 

[LastSeven]

It doesn't matter how many actually are, what counts though, is that some actually are literally beheaded because they follow Christ , thus meaning the beheadings in Revelation 20:4 can indeed be taken in the literal sense.

So then your answer to my question is yes. You think that God will reward people for being killed a certain way even though they have absolutely no control over that, and even though other people may have been killed for Jesus also but in a different manner. In other words God will reward those people with arguably the greatest reward God could ever give, simply for dumb luck.

Ya, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but if that's how you think God operates what can I tell ya?

 

[ToServe]

In Revelation 20:11-15 only the dead are in view. They are of course alive when being judged, that being because they are resurrected back to life, but before they are, they all are physically dead, IOW in their graves.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Now explain how these in verse 17 end up at the great white throne judgment among the dead where every single one present at that judgment have been resurrected from their graves.

The Book of Life is being opened revealing those who have taken part in the first resurrection. Those who are found alive in Christ and are found in the Book of Life and have taken part in the first resurrection, though their earthly bodies have died. Revelation 20:11-15 is speaking of two books being opened, that is unveiled and these books account for the Living in Christ and those who are Dead.

You are collapsing the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 with Revelation 20:11-15. Though both speak of Christ's return, Revelation 20 speaks of the time after the fact, when everyone is biologically dead and there remains no human alive biologically speaking as the idiom suggests even the sea gave up its dead and the first earth and the first heavens fled from his presence. This is where the earth is no more and so if the earth is no more, then everyone has biologically died and have tasted the first death which is the biological death of the earthly body. That is why the dead who are not registered in the Book of Life and those serving in Hell are given to the fires of annihilation in the Lake of Fire that is the second death. The first death being of the earthly body and the second death is the death of the being who occupied the earthly body.

1 Thessalonians speaks at the instant Christ returns when those alive will be translated and will not taste the first death which is the death of the earthly tent/body, because their earthly bodies will be dissolved/vapourised in an instant and the soul being will be instantly at the twinkling of an eye be clothed with the 3rd Heaven resurrection body.

The Final Judgement of the Dead is a complete closure to finally erase Satan, Hell and biological/spiritual death itself as the last enemy. Nothing of the first earth and the first heavens can continue past this point at the White Throne Judgement when Christ returns to judge the Living and the Dead.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The Book of Life was opened which presents to the reader that all who were ever to be registered in that Book are all accounted for in the resurrection at Christ's return, for they had been born, saved, biologically died or translated and have taken part in the resurrection.

When the sea and Hell itself deliver up its dead, meaning presents its dead for the Final Judgement, this reveals a pertinent point that there are no mortal human beings left alive after this point that will in the future biologically die and this is the closure that presents all of humanity before God.

When both books are unveiled, every human being that ever lived or will ever live had been born in the human body, saved or unsaved, biologically died (first death), judged by Christ (all eyes will see him and all knees will bend before him), found in the Book of Life and have taken part in the first resurrection (resurrection) or found in the Book of Death and thrown in the Lake of Fire which is the second death, that is the death of the soul-being. The soul being Satan is no more and so at this juncture there is no going back and no more continuing of the previous same human state and earthly realm and it is the Final Closure to the entire Genesis Creation of God and the beginning of the New with the Last Adams occupying Heavenly New Jerusalem as the many stars (Angels) of Heaven (3rd Heaven).

 

[ToServe]

Jesus only required one resurrection in order to live again. Amil believes and teaches that Christians require two resurrections in order to live again. A resurrection means to live again. Once someone lives again they don't need to be resurrected yet again, to live yet again. As per the first resurrection in Revelation 20, they already live again at that point. They don't need to live yet again, be resurrected yet again. Take note who it is that lives again. It is the souls John sees in Revelation 20:4. They live again after they have already physically died. None of them already live again before they physically die, because if they did, why did they physically die then?

After Christ was raised the door for reaping from the harvest of God was opened. Christ took with him the Old Testament peoples of Daniel born before the Cross as the firstfruits of the harvest and offered them to God. The Disciples were born under the Old Covenant and they too are accounted for like the first fruits of the harvest.

Those who die in the Lord are those Holy Ones who are raised and accompany Christ at the Finale when he comes for the remnant, the last tasting good wine to the Wedding Supper of the Lamb (wedding at Galilee was a prophetic symbol).

So when a faithful die in Christ, what is stopping or hindering him or her from being clothed with the heavenly body and presented before Christ as one of many stars who serve in his inner measured court?

Nothing.

The Lord has been reaping in bundles his wheat. each onto their yearly harvest of reaping from one generation to another and this applies to only one resurrection, yet the Final Judgement that unveils the Book of Life is when he returns to disclose it as his Winning Trophy.

Christ has been banking his wheat into his barn at the instant he was raised and was given a Kingdom that needs those who serve with him in the inner sanctum within the Most Holy Place (3rd Heaven) and those who are within the outer unmeasured or yet to be accounted for court who are the symbol of the two witnesses witnessing before the Gentile world while they are being trampled by the unbelieving gentiles in the process. This has been the story of the Church's commission and it is the conduit that is funnelling many who die in the Lord to be instantly present with the Lord in their resurrection body.