'Devil's Advocate' for Amillenialism

BABerean2

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Amil always avoids Rev 20 for obvious reasons. None of the above passages ever say the saved are resurrected at the same time as the unsaved. Two of them only speak about the saved dead being resurrected so those two don't help your position at all. Those are the last two.

Then I guess you have got me.

Christ must have been wrong about the "hour" when "all" the dead would be bodily resurrected, and judged in John 5:27-30.


Somehow mortals will survive the "flaming fire" at the Second Coming of Christ described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.


Somehow mortals will survive the sheep and goat judgment at Christ's Second Coming, found in Matthew 25:31-46.

Paul must have been wrong about Christ judging both the living and the dead at His appearing, in 2 Timothy 4:1.


.
 
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ewq1938

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Then I guess you have got me.

Christ must have been wrong about the "hour" when "all" the dead would be bodily resurrected, and judged in John 5:27-30.


No, you are wrong to assume the idea of "at the same time" which Christ does not say. Is Christ wrong in Rev 20 when he shows John two resurrections separated by a thousand years?


Somehow mortals will survive the "flaming fire" at the Second Coming of Christ described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

The flaming fire is not a weapon but Christ returning in a flash of lightning. And we know mortals survive the second coming because it is they that are reigned over with a rod of iron.



Somehow mortals will survive the sheep and goat judgment at Christ's Second Coming, found in Matthew 25:31-46.

They survive the sheep judgment...when it comes time for the goats to be judged they will receive their fate.

Paul must have been wrong about Christ judging both the living and the dead at His appearing, in 2 Timothy 4:1.

Jesus will judged the living and dead saints when he returns. Rev 20:4 and what Paul wrote about the living being changed matches what 2 Timothy 4:1 says. What 2 Timothy 4:1 does not say is Jesus judging the unsaved dead.
 
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ToServe

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It is possibly true that the City which descends from Heaven is a prologue, which happens before literally before the Millennium, though, in the text, it is presented after the Millennium.

The New Jerusalem City is portrayed as coming down from Heaven with full occupancy of numbers, of all the saved who are written in the book of life. It reveals that Jesus reign is complete and he now hands over the Kingdom to the Father as in mission accomplished. The text presents it after the Millennium because the Millennium must encompass the totality of the New Covenant Age that Christ rules through his two witnesses (His Church), the anointed workmen of the harvest who are pouring out the Golden Oil of Salvation and bringing once many enemies of Christ to Christ through the preaching if the Gospel. The takeover of the Gentile nations is happening on the spiritual level, within the spiritual warfare context described in the book of Ephesians, that is being waged for the hearts and minds of those peoples from all nations that Jesus is bringing into submission to his Cross. This is the Millennium Reign of the Cross.

I want everyone to know that the Millennium reign is the reign of Cross and is the Millennium Reign of Christ's Cross until he destroys the last enemy death and hands over the Kingdom to God the Father when he returns to call it a day by the blowing of the 7th Trumpet of God and by declaring time not longer as far as the harvest is concerned.

So the 'type' Church City on earth where the two witnesses are within the outer unmeasured court ministering the gospel to the Gentile nations who trample them in the process is the prologue to the 'anti-type' City New Jerusalem which is then revealed at the crescendo to the finale at Christ's brilliant coming.

The Millennium Reign of the Cross must be before the Second Coming at the time the last trumpet is sounded and time no longer declared.

That Mountain the rock comes from is the 'throne of God' on earth, it is the Kingdom of God, from which Jesus comes. Jesus is the one who 'smashes the nations' as 'pots of clay', just as Jesus is also that rock which smashes the the 'feet of iron mixed with clay'.

The smashing is happening within the Millennium Reign of the Cross through his Two Witnesses who are defeating the hidden enemy within a war theatre that is spiritual and one that involves spiritual weapons. The Spiritual weapons of Ephesians 6:10-20 are at the disposal of the Two Witnesses who reign down the Fire of the Holy Spirit upon the once enemies of the Cross and by bringing those once enemies from all nations, as the many subjects of the Cross, to serve Christ at the foot of His Cross. Christ is continuing to reign in this manner.

You will note that Christ is reigning within the Millennium Reign of the Cross through his Living Stones that are of the members of his body, within the outer unmeasured court of the Gentiles. The 'type' outer court Church City of the symbolic two witnesses (two olive trees - New Testament Jews and Gentiles) is a prologue to the New Jerusalem of the 'anti-type' City that descends from God and comprises of those who have been redeemed (sealed) from the earth.

Then, Jesus is revealed from Heaven, with the still blowing of the Last Trumpet, and the first resurrection happens. Only after the beast and false prophet are destroyed.

The Beast and the false prophet within the 1st-century context is the Herodian Dynasty (five kings have fallen and one (Agrippa II is) that the False Pharisaical Religious System rode to send out a flood of people from city to city, after the Church members (Two Witnesses), in order to prevent the Child (Gospel) from being spread into the world. The Beast and the False Prophet of the 1st Century must have been first prevented from persecuting the Church so that the Gospel can be spread into the many Gentile nations. Satan was chained, in other words, Satan was dispossessed of his Queen (False Prophet) and King (Herodian Beast) chest pieces.

The Millennium Reign of the Cross must, therefore, encompass the entire New Covenant Age after the Beast and the False Prophet was Slain in 70AD (The Batlle of Armageddon). The Millennium Reign of the Cross must encompass two events, where the first is the slaughter of the Beast and the False Prophet in 70AD (The Battle of Armageddon) and the last event before Christ's brilliant Coming must be when Satan is armed with the Beast of the Bottomless Pitt in a last attempt to deceive the Gentile nations for the last and final time, in the Battle of Gog and Magog.

The 1st Beast and False Prophet was the Pharisaical Religious System that was inspired by Satan to attack Christ's 1st Century Apostolic Church (read the entire Acts of the Apostles).

The successor of the Iron Legs of the Roman Empire is the 'Holy Roman Empire', which is iron, mixed in with the clay, of the 'Catholic Church'.

No, this is a complete opposite. Roman Empire had historically been the strong man that prevented the Beast of the Bottomless Pitt from rising throughout the century past, for they are the ones who inflicted the mortal wound in 70AD when they destroyed the False Prophet's Temple of Doom and the 1st Beast that protected the False Prophet back then, where abominations were being offered.
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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It reveals that Jesus reign is complete and he now hands over the Kingdom to the Father as in mission accomplished.

(Above quote was regarding, the City which comes down from Heaven.)

This is true.

However, I take the Millennium far more world shattering and splendorous in glory, then I see you take it. (As I disagree that 'this is it', though I do believe the Age is starting to change... so some scent of that Glorious Age of Power is in the air. )

(The Kingdom of God remains, though, well disguised.)

(Not manmade, nor of earth, but of Jesus and Angels of His Father.)
 
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ToServe

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(Above quote was regarding, the City which comes down from Heaven.)

This is true.

However, I take the Millennium far more world shattering and splendorous in glory, then I see you take it. (As I disagree that 'this is it', though I do believe the Age is starting to change... so some scent of that Glorious Age of Power is in the air. )

(The Kingdom of God remains, though, well disguised.)

(Not manmade, nor of earth, but of Jesus and Angels of His Father.)

I like how you phrased it as -
"So some scent of that Glorious Age of Power is in the air. The Kingdom of God remains, though, well disguised. Not manmade, nor of earth, but of Jesus and Angels of His Father."

We will one day and God willing be counted within his inner measured Angelic Court.
 
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BABerean2

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Parts are, parts are not.

Revelation chapter 20 is one of the parts that is not.

Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the fire comes at the Second Coming of Christ.
You are changing the text by claiming that "flaming fire" is "lightning".

Have you ever heard of "flaming lightning"?
You are killing "Sola Scriptura".
The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20.

Based on Revelation 11:15-18, the "time of the judgment of the dead" comes right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, unless you can show the 8th trumpet.

The judgment of the dead comes at the end of Revelation 20, when "the book of life" is read. We find below Paul saying that his fellow Christian's names are written in "the book of life".


Php_4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


In 2 Timothy 4:1 Paul reveals that Christ judges both the living and the dead at His appearing.
If you think the "unsaved dead" are not dead, you are trying to make your doctrine work. No unbiased witness could come up with such logic. It is the type of logic that is required to make the premill doctrine work.


Either Paul is wrong, or you are wrong.


.
 
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ewq1938

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Revelation chapter 20 is one of the parts that is not.


It is actually. And we know it follows Rev 19 as well because the beast and FOP being cast into the LOF in Rev 19, and when it's time for Satan to go there, the beast and FP are already there showing continuity. Amil fails to understand this though I don't understand why.




Based on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, the fire comes at the Second Coming of Christ.
You are changing the text by claiming that "flaming fire" is "lightning".

I didn't change anything.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
phlox
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.


In flaming fire is regarding Christ not the unsaved. Flaming means a flash and fire is specifically lightning according to the Strongs. So Christ comes In a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that before:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.




Based on Revelation 11:15-18, the "time of the judgment of the dead" comes right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, unless you can show the 8th trumpet.

The dead in Christ are judged at the 7th trump. Talking about an 8th trump is called a strawman fallacy.

The judgment of the dead comes at the end of Revelation 20, when "the book of life" is read.

That's the unsaved dead not the saved dead who were already resurrected in the first resurrection.





Either Paul is wrong, or you are wrong.

This is another form of an argumentative fallacy. I don't care to be constantly accused of disagreeing with Paul or Jesus. It's a poor and immature debate tactic and you use it often. It is only whether one of us is wrong or right not whether Jesus or Paul is.

.
 
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BABerean2

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It is actually. And we know it follows Rev 19 as well because the beast and FOP being cast into the LOF in Rev 19, and when it's time for Satan to go there, the beast and FP are already there showing continuity. Amil fails to understand this though I don't understand why.






I didn't change anything.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

G5395
f??´?
phlox
flox
From a primary f?e´?? phlego¯ (to “flash” or “flame”); a blaze: - flame (-ing).

G4442
p???
pur
poor
A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.


In flaming fire is regarding Christ not the unsaved. Flaming means a flash and fire is specifically lightning according to the Strongs. So Christ comes In a flash of lightning to arrive and take vengeance (the sword of his mouth Rev 19) on the unsaved and that shouldn't be surprising because we were told that before:

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.



This denotes the speed of his return like a flash of lightning. It has nothing to do with using fire or lightning against the unsaved. To think that is to misread the verses.


Just read Rev 19 where the battle is described and you will see ZERO fire or lightning used to kill anyone.






The dead in Christ are judged at the 7th trump. Talking about an 8th trump is called a strawman fallacy.




That's the unsaved dead not the saved dead who were already resurrected in the first resurrection.







This is another form of an argumentative fallacy. I don't care to be constantly accused of disagreeing with Paul or Jesus. It's a poor and immature debate tactic and you use it often. It is only whether one of us is wrong or right not whether Jesus or Paul is.

.

(KJV+) ForG1063 asG5618 theG3588 lightningG796 comethG1831 out ofG575 the east,G395 andG2532 shinethG5316 even untoG2193 the west;G1424 soG3779 shall alsoG2532 theG3588 comingG3952 of theG3588 SonG5207 of manG444 be.G2071


lightning G796 "astrape"


(KJV+) InG1722 flamingG5395 fireG4442 takingG1325 vengeanceG1557 on them that knowG1492 notG3361 God,G2316 andG2532 that obeyG5219 notG3361 theG3588 gospelG2098 of ourG2257 LordG2962 JesusG2424 Christ:G5547



If you have to change the text of the Bible to make your doctrine work, you need to re-examine your doctrine...
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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I like how you phrased it as -
"So some scent of that Glorious Age of Power is in the air. The Kingdom of God remains, though, well disguised. Not manmade, nor of earth, but of Jesus and Angels of His Father."

We will one day and God willing be counted within his inner measured Angelic Court.

Yes, this is what I have in mind. You already are counted as measured in that Court, and have your own angel, or angels. As every believer has their own angels. (The term used is at some point singular, and another point plural.) This is just not yet to be seen, but will be revealed, from Heaven. Like us, they too, are 'bondservants of our Lord, Jesus Christ'.

Their purpose is for us, and for God and Christ.

They are, already, however, not the 'strangers' that we often think of them as. It simply is easier to accept a stranger as being from Heaven, then to accept a close friend. (And, this is not bad, as we live by faith, not by sight. It would shatter our illusions, that so much has been kept from us. This will happen, but it is difficult to cope with.)

(Further, the requirements for dealing with 'just people', and the requirements of knowledge of dealing with angels, are two very different things.)
 
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DavidPT

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If you have to change the text of the Bible to make your doctrine work, you need to re-examine your doctrine...

Do you think you could be guilty of this as well at times, or do you perhaps feel you have perfect understanding of Scriptures at all times, therefore you couldn't possibly need to re-examine your doctrine, since you could never change the text of the Bible to make your doctrine work to begin with? It would be pretty arrogant if you think this can't include you at times as well. There are other doctrines besides Premil vs Amil, where you might need to re-examine your doctrine.
 
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BABerean2

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Do you think you could be guilty of this as well at times, or do you perhaps feel you have perfect understanding of Scriptures at all times, therefore you couldn't possibly need to re-examine your doctrine, since you could never change the text of the Bible to make your doctrine work to begin with? It would be pretty arrogant if you think this can't include you at times as well. There are other doctrines besides Premil vs Amil, where you might need to re-examine your doctrine.

If you, or I, change the word "fire" to "lightning" in the text to make our doctrine work, either of us would be guilty.

.
 
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