'Devil's Advocate' for Amillenialism

ewq1938

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Let me just make sure I understand your logic here. In verse 10 the books are opened and in verse 11 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire. In Revelation 20 the beast is thrown into the lake of fire first, and then the books are opened.

So are you saying that because the sequence appears to be reversed here, that therefore this is a different event?


Yes. This is the judgment of the saved not the unsaved as I said in that post.
 
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ewq1938

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And if there is no specific mention of rewards in that particular chapter then that invalidates everything I've said? Even if the reward (eternal life) is implied?


There is no implication of anyone being rewarded. Lack of any saved people being there, or any rewards contrasted against the clear punishment shown damages your position and strengthens that there was a previous judgment of the saved.
 
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ewq1938

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You're forming your own narrative with pieces of the Bible.

False.

You said that the saints in Revelation 20 were murdered for refusing to take the mark of the beast. Now you're using Rev 13 to support that statement. Let's look at what both those chapters actually say.

Rev 13 says that those who would not worship the beast should be killed.
Rev 20 says the ones sitting on thrones were beheaded for Christ. They had not taken the mark.

It says more, "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands"

Rev 13 confirms that people would die for not worshiping the image of the beast. Rev 13 does not cover when people would stand up for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God but clearly those things would also not be tolerated. There is no stretch of the imagination here nor a false narrative.

Revelation 13 does not say how they should be killed.

Doesn't have to.

Revelation 13 does not say who should kill them.

Doesn't have to.


Revelation 13 could be entirely symbolic.

Incorrect.

Revelation 20 could be entirely symbolic.

Incorrect.

Revelation 20 does not say they were killed because they refused to take the mark.

It lists many things which they were "guilty" of which led to their deaths. It's all connected.

Revelation 20 does not say they were killed by the beast.

Doesn't have to.

In a court of law you would have circumstantial evidence at best and my client would be acquitted of all charges.


Who are you representing, the beast? You seem to argue that the beast is not guilty of killing the saints. Why defend the beast in this imaginary court scenario?
 
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ewq1938

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How many Christians do you think are being or have ever been beheaded for Jesus? And do you mean to tell me that only those who were beheaded for Christ will reign with Christ? And the other billions of Christians who ever lived will not have that honour because maybe they died of natural causes or in car accidents or in battle or through any other of a myriad of possible causes, including being burned to death in the belly of a ceramic pig, or starved to death by Stalin or crucified by the Romans?

Do you really think that this one very specific way of dying (beheading), God would reward with the authority to rule, over all other ways a Christian might have died over the years? Are those who died of other causes deemed not worthy, through no fault of their own, though they too may have been murdered for their testimony of Jesus? Do you really think that's the way God operates?


Nice strawman but no one claims only being beheaded is the way to reign with Christ. John simply is shown one specific group who died in the GT. The rest of the dead in Christ still rise and will reign with him.
 
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ewq1938

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Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28-29
“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

It literally says there will be "a resurrection of both".


Doesn't show that at all in fact it shows two resurrections:

1. the resurrection of life
2. the resurrection of damnation

That's two different types of resurrections even listed in chronological order perfectly matching what we find in Rev 20.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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ewq1938 said:
So how many times is Jesus supposed to come to the Earth since he ascended? Once in Ad 70 and at least one more time?
Jesus has been here since before the beginning. Interacting with Israel in the Old Testament, He came in the flesh in the New Testament and He will come again ONCE for His Bride on the last day.
I am a partial preterist so we will not see it the same way.
Blessings
Well, I did ask "how many times is Jesus supposed to come to the Earth since he ascended?" not how many times before the acsension. The point is to figure out how many times Jesus leaves heaven to come to the Earth since you believe Rev 19 is about Ad70 and Rev 19 clearly shows Jesus leaving heaven and fighting people on Earth. That would mean you believe t5eh second coming would be Ad 70 and a third coming for the bride. Naturally my point would be there is only one time since the acsension that Jesus will leave heaven and return to the Earth.
I can see how that could be confusing as I also see 1st century Jerusalem and it's Temple in Revelation

Currently I am studying on 2 major greek words concerning "the end<5056>" and "the finish<5055>" to better harmonize Revelation and the rest of the NT, including the Olivet Discourse and Paul's end time discourses. [and why I haven't been on much lately]

This greek word concerning the finish #5055> is interesting
It is not used in Mark,
Matthew [6 verses], Luke [4 verses] John [2 verses] and an astounding 8 verses in Revelation out of the 26 verses used and almost all concerning the witnesses, beast, the abyss 7 Messengers with 7 bowls, etc.

One can look up the word and see where it is used.

G5055 (NKJV)
G5055
matches the Greek τελέω (teleō), occurs 30 times in 26 verses.

Matthew 10:23 - “Whenever they may be persecuting ye in this City, be fleeing to another.
For amen I am saying to ye, not no ye should be finishing<5055> the cities of Israel till of which may be coming the Son of Man

2 times in John at the crucifixion:

John 19:
28 - After this, Jesus, having percieved that already all has been
finished<5055> that may be being perfected the Writing He is saying "I am thirsting.
30 - Then when Jesus took the sour wine<3690>, He said, “It has been finished<5055>!” And reclining His head, He gives up Spirit.

This is the last verse Paul uses with that word.

2 Timothy 4:
6 - For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand.
7 - I have fought the good fight, I have finished<5055> the race, I have kept the faith.

Then comes the 8 verses in Revelation:

7th trumpet:

Revelation 10:7 -
but in the days of the sounding of the seventh Messenger, whenever he is being about to be trumpeting,
is finished<5055> the mystery of the God, as He evangelizes the of Himself bondservants and the prophets.

The beast out of the abyss killing the 2 witnesses.

Revelation 11:7 -

And whenever they should be finishing<5055> their testimony, the beast ascending out of the abyss, shall be doing battle with them and shall be conquering them and shall be killing them

Seven Messengers have the 7 bowls:

Revelation 15:1 -
Then I saw another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous: seven Messengers having the seven last blows/stripes<4127>,
that in them is finished<5055> the FURY of God.

The 7 Messengers and the Sanctuary:

Revelation 15:8 -
And the Sanctuary is replete<1072> of smoke out of the Glory of the God and from His power,
and no one was able to enter the Sanctuary till should be being finished<5055> the seven blows/stripes of the seven Messengers.

The 10 Kings:

Revelation 17:17 -
“For God has put it into their hearts to do His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God shall be being finished 5055>.

The beast being thrown in the abyss:

Revelation 20:3 -
and he cast him into the abyss, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished<5055>. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

The first resurrection:


Revelation 20:5 -
But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished<5055>.
This is the first resurrection<386>.

The 1000yrs finished, Satan released:

Revelation 20:7 -

Now when the thousand years have have finished<5055>, Satan will be released from his prison
=======================================
I like to look at where exact forms of hebrew and greek words are used.
I thought this might interest some here.

This exact form for the word "resurrection" used in Reve 20:5 is used in only 6 verses, 4 of those in 1Corinthians 15.

G386 ἀνάστασις
ἀνάστασις — 6x
Revelation 20:5 -

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished<5055>.
This is the first resurrection

The Great I AM!

John 11:25 -
Jesus said to her, I<1473> AM<1510> the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

1Corinthians 15:

12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead,
how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.
The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.


.
 
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LastSeven

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Doesn't show that at all in fact it shows two resurrections:

1. the resurrection of life
2. the resurrection of damnation

That's two different types of resurrections even listed in chronological order perfectly matching what we find in Rev 20.
Yes, it lists those two but it also says that all who are in their graves will come to life in one hour. How do you explain that?
 
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LastSeven

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Nice strawman but no one claims only being beheaded is the way to reign with Christ.
Actually DavidPT said "Christians are literally beheaded for their faith in Christ, even in this present day and time we live in. You seem to make light of that fact, since you indicated earlier that being beheaded is to be understood symbolically in Revelation 20:4 and not literally instead.".

And also Revelation 20 says that those who were beheaded came to life to reign with Christ. So do you take that literally or not?
 
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LastSeven

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There is no implication of anyone being rewarded. Lack of any saved people being there, or any rewards contrasted against the clear punishment shown damages your position and strengthens that there was a previous judgment of the saved.
On the contrary. When it says anyone who's name was not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire, the implication is that anyone who's name is found in the book of life rewarded with eternal life. That's why it's called "the book of life".
 
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ewq1938

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Yes, it lists those two but it also says that all who are in their graves will come to life in one hour. How do you explain that?

It does not say "in one hour". It says "the hour is coming" which is "the time is coming" and then goes into speaking of the two resurrections:

1. the resurrection of life
2. the resurrection of damnation



Scripture is clear the saved are resurrected before the unsaved. The two groups are never resurrected at the same exact time. Rev 20 makes it the clearest as it places a thousand years inbetween the two resurrections. The other scriptures do not mention how much time is inbetween which is why all scriptures on the subject must be consulted.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Ok so the following verse are a symbolic coming not a literal one?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

So since you place this in Ad70 there is no Jesus or heavenly armies....it's all just symbolism for Roman armies killing Jews?


Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


Also, who exactly is the beast and false prophet here and since it's the Roman's doing the killing, are they defeating the beast and it's army? Do they cast the beast and FP into the LOF?


Your first question:
Ok so the following verse are a symbolic coming not a literal one?


He is coming however it is explained with imagery and symbolism. If you read each line carefully and do a comparative search in other parts of scripture, you will soon discover imagery is used else where to provide a metaphoric message that usually applies to an actual situation. Revelation is full of imagery, metaphors,idioms and symbolism. After all Apocalypse means the "unveiling" or "revealing" .

Examples:

heaven opened
9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about [e]the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, “Rise, Peter; kill and eat.”

white horse

7 On the twenty-fourth day of the eleventh month, which is the month Shebat, in the second year of Darius, the word of the Lord came to Zechariah the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet: 8 I saw by night, and behold, a man riding on a red horse, and it stood among the myrtle trees in the hollow; and behind him were horses: red, sorrel, and white. 9 Then I said, “My lord, what are these?” So the angel who talked with me said to me, “I will show you what they are.10 And the man who stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, “These are the ones whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth.”
11 So they answered the Angel of the Lord, who stood among the myrtle trees, and said, “We have walked to and fro throughout the earth, and behold, all the earth is resting quietly.”

and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True

4 Then Jeremiah the prophet said to them, “I have heard. Indeed, I will pray to the Lord your God according to your words, and it shall be, that whatever the Lord answers you, I will declare it to you. I will keep nothing back from you.” 5 So they said to Jeremiah, “Let the Lord be a true and faithful witness between us, if we do not do according to everything which the Lord your God sends us by you. 6 Whether it is [a]pleasing or [b]displeasing, we will obey the voice of the Lord our God to whom we send you, that it may be well with us when we obey the voice of the Lord our God.”

His eyes were as a flame of fire

16 Now the glory of the Lord rested on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day He called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud. 17 The sight of the glory of the Lord was like a consuming fire on the top of the mountain in the eyes of the children of Israel.

sharp sword
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

the armies which were in heaven followed him
"Or do you think that I cannot appeal to My Father, and He will at once put at My disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

Your second question:
So since you place this in Ad70 there is no Jesus or heavenly armies....it's all just symbolism for Roman armies killing Jews?



Yes. God= Jesus (we already went through this in an earlier thread) uses earthly armies to wage war against those who reject him. Many, many examples of this in the old testament. Nation against nation to weed out unrighteousness and to progress Gods will on earth.

Your third question:
Also, who exactly is the beast and false prophet here and since it's the Roman's doing the killing, are they defeating the beast and it's army? Do they cast the beast and FP into the LOF?

Revelation 19 11-21 starts a whole new vision. The aftermath and result. The beast and his armies are defeated. This is in contrast to the verses 1-16 where heaven rejoices after the fall of Jerusalem. A celebration of the true Bride (the new Jerusalem).

I believe the beast represents corruption, so anyone or any nation. Jerusalem is the harlot that rides the beast and in this case, Rome is the beast. She, Jerusalem, rides the beast, Rome, to do her bidding. They begged for the crucifixion of our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth. That should be proof enough.
The false Prophet, well that goes without saying, those who corrupt the Gospel.






















 
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ewq1938

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On the contrary. When it says anyone who's name was not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire, the implication is that anyone who's name is found in the book of life rewarded with eternal life.


Yes but not one verse in the passage refers to anyone found in the book of life. The only ones depicted there are those not found in the book of life which is the entire point of the final judgment. The ones found in the book of life were already judged. None of the dead judged there come from heaven which is where the dead in Christ currently reside. That is because the dead coming from death, hell and the depths of the sea are all unsaved and lost souls. Not to mention all the dead in Christ rise at the same time, not some before the thousand years and the rest after it.

By the time we get to the last judgment, the only people who are "dead" are the spiritually dead. The dead in Christ are already immortals and already judged.
 
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ewq1938

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I understand your logic but it's pretty weak evidence to be honest.


It's not weak at all.

Barnes:

Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones - θρόνους thronous See Rev_1:4; Rev_3:21; Rev_4:3-4. John here simply says, that he saw in vision thrones, with persons sitting on them, but without intreating who they were that sat on them. It is not the throne of God that is now revealed, for the word is in the plural number, though the writer does not hint how “many” thrones there were. It is intimated, however, that these thrones were placed with some reference to pronouncing a judgment, or determining the destiny of some portion of mankind, for it is immediately added, “and judgment was given unto them.” There is considerable resemblance, in many respects, between this and the statement in Dan_7:9; “I beheld until the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit”; or, as it should be rendered, “I beheld” - that is, I continued to look - “until the thrones were placed or set,” to wit, for the purposes of judgment.

Darby and Gill both cite Daniel 7 in regards to Rev 20:4 as well.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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On the contrary. When it says anyone who's name was not found written in the book of life is thrown into the lake of fire, the implication is that anyone who's name is found in the book of life rewarded with eternal life. That's why it's called "the book of life".
I would tend to agree.

Here is Daniel 7 concerning books being opened:

Dan 7:
9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court[fn] was seated,
And the books were opened

Here Daniel also appears to mention the book of Life?

Dan 12:1
“At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people escape<4422>,
Every one who is found written in the book.

The Book of the Law of Moses is mentioned by Paul in Galatians 3

Deu 31:26
“Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

Jos 23:6
“Therefore be very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the Book of the Law of Moses, lest you turn aside from it to the right hand or to the left,

Paul actually brings that up in Galatians 3:

Gal 3:10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the Book of the Law, to do them.”[fn]

What are the books being opened other than the Book of Life?
I was thinking perhaps one of those books in Reve 20:12 could pertain to the "Book of the Law of Moses" given to the Hebrews in the OT.
They had to follow it to the letter.......

Rev 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God,[fn] and books were opened.
And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life.
And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.


.
 
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thesunisout

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I agree and add, how is satan imprisoned with a seal over it and bound with a chain which means not on a leash like a dog but wrapped up with a chain meaning he cannot move at all inside of a sealed prison/pit/hole.

Also, in what sense are not the nations not deceived? Why don't the nations come up to Jerusalem to worship as scripture predicted they would?
 
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ewq1938

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Also, in what sense are not the nations not deceived?

In every sense the devil deceives people....they will be free from that deceiving for the first time.

Why don't the nations come up to Jerusalem to worship as scripture predicted they would?

Who is claiming they don't?
 
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BABerean2

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Who is claiming they don't?

Which Jerusalem?

Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.


The woman at the well said that earthly Jerusalem is the place to worship.
However, Jesus corrected her in the passage below.


Joh 4:20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship."

Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.

Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
Joh 4:24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."


.
 
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LastSeven

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Yes but not one verse in the passage refers to anyone found in the book of life. The only ones depicted there are those not found in the book of life which is the entire point of the final judgment. The ones found in the book of life were already judged. None of the dead judged there come from heaven which is where the dead in Christ currently reside. That is because the dead coming from death, hell and the depths of the sea are all unsaved and lost souls. Not to mention all the dead in Christ rise at the same time, not some before the thousand years and the rest after it.

By the time we get to the last judgment, the only people who are "dead" are the spiritually dead. The dead in Christ are already immortals and already judged.
Let's approach this from another angle. If you believe that all the righteous are judged at the beginning of the thousand years and at the end of the thousand years we see only the wicked, then you must believe that not a single person is saved during the entire thousand year period. Is that what you believe? If not, then when are those righteous people judged?
 
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