• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Deuterocanonical books.

SummaScriptura

Forever Newbie
May 30, 2007
6,986
1,051
Scam Francisco
Visit site
✟56,955.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Let's define terms...

Books of the 'Shorter Deuterocanon'
(Books which have had prevalent acceptance, being accepted in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy)


Tobit
Judith
8 chapters of Esther
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
The Wisdom of Solomon
The Wisdom of ben Sirach
Baruch
The Letter of Jeremiah
3 chapters of Daniel
__________________________________
+ 8 books
+ 2 books with additional chapters

Books of the 'Broader Deuterocanon'
(Books which have had limited acceptance, only being accepted in one or more branch of Orthodoxy)


The Book of Enoch
The Book of Jubilees
The Prayer of Manasseh
1 Esdras
2 Esdras (The Ezra Apocalypse)
3 Maccabees
Psalm 151
Psalms 152-155
The Ascension of Isaiah
The Rest of the Words of Baruch
The Apocalypse of Baruch
_________________________________
+ 9 books
+ 1 book with additional chapters

Other Books under consideration along with these groups
(Books with limited acceptance in historic times, only being accepted in historical times by a certain Orthodox group)


The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
Joseph and Asenath
The Lives of the Prophets
The Psalms of Solomon
4 Maccabees
___________________________________
+ 5 books
 
Upvote 0

Hieros Gamos

Newbie
Jul 26, 2014
57
5
✟22,699.00
Faith
Catholic
like an imbecile

In reference to Daniel my answer will be that I did not say that he was not a prophet; on the contrary, I confessed in the very beginning of the Preface that he was a prophet. But I wished to show what was the opinion upheld by the Jews; and what were the arguments on which they relied for its proof. I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to be writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, “As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion.” Otherwise from the fact that I stated that Porphyry had said many things against this prophet, and called, as witnesses of this, Methodius, Eusebius, and Apollinarius, who have replied to his folly in many thousand lines, it will be in his power to accuse me for not having written in my Preface against the books of Porphyry. If there is any one who pays attention to silly things like this, I must tell him loudly and freely that no one is compelled to read what he does not want; that I wrote for those who asked me, not for those who would scorn me, for the grateful not the carping, for the earnest not the indifferent. Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.
Jerome’s Apology for Himself Against the Books of Rufinus, Addressed to Pammachius and Marcella from Bethlehem, a.d. 402, in NPNF2-03, Theodoret, Jerome, Gennadius, & Rufinus: Historical Writings, ed. Schaff

And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggæus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. ut if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,—considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,—ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many ages, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons, and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.
CANONES ET DECRETA DOGMATICA CONCILII TRIDENTINI. THE CANONS AND DOGMATIC DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. Sessio Quarta, Fourth Session, celebrata die VIII. Aprilis, 1546.A.D.

The Belgic Confession was originally composed in 1561 by Guido de Bres for the churches in Flanders and the Netherlands. It was adopted by a Reformed Synod at Emden, in 1571. During the Synod of Dordt in 1618–1619, several editions of the Confession in differing languages (French, Dutch, and Latin) were carefully examined and an official, revised edition was produced. According to Schaff, “It is, upon the whole, the best symbolical statement of the Calvinistic system of doctrine, with the exception of the Westminster Confession.”385.
385 Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Volume 1: The History of Creeds, p 506.(Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books) 1983.

Article VI, The Difference Between the Canonical and Apocryphal Books, We distinguish those sacred books from the apocryphal, viz: the third and fourth books of Esdras, the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Jesus Sirach, Baruch, the Appendix to the book of Esther, the Song of the Three Children in the Furnace, the History of Susannah, of Bel and the Dragon, the Prayer of Manasseh, and the two books of the Maccabees. All of which the Church may read and take instruction from, so far as they agree with the canonical books; but they are far from having such power and efficacy that we may from their testimony confirm any point of faith or of the Christian religion; much less may they be used to detract from the authority of the other, that is, the sacred books.

Historic Creeds and Confessions, ed. Brannan.
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In reference to Daniel my answer will be that I did not say that he was not a prophet; on the contrary, I confessed in the very beginning of the Preface that he was a prophet. But I wished to show what was the opinion upheld by the Jews; and what were the arguments on which they relied for its proof. I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to be writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, “As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion.” Otherwise from the fact that I stated that Porphyry had said many things against this prophet, and called, as witnesses of this, Methodius, Eusebius, and Apollinarius, who have replied to his folly in many thousand lines, it will be in his power to accuse me for not having written in my Preface against the books of Porphyry. If there is any one who pays attention to silly things like this, I must tell him loudly and freely that no one is compelled to read what he does not want; that I wrote for those who asked me, not for those who would scorn me, for the grateful not the carping, for the earnest not the indifferent. Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.
Jerome’s Apology for Himself Against the Books of Rufinus, Addressed to Pammachius and Marcella from Bethlehem, a.d. 402, in NPNF2-03, Theodoret, Jerome, Gennadius, & Rufinus: Historical Writings, ed. Schaff

And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggæus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. ut if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Moreover, the same sacred and holy Synod,—considering that no small utility may accrue to the Church of God, if it be made known which out of all the Latin editions, now in circulation, of the sacred books, is to be held as authentic,—ordains and declares, that the said old and vulgate edition, which, by the lengthened usage of so many ages, has been approved of in the Church, be, in public lectures, disputations, sermons, and expositions, held as authentic; and that no one is to dare, or presume to reject it under any pretext whatever.
CANONES ET DECRETA DOGMATICA CONCILII TRIDENTINI. THE CANONS AND DOGMATIC DECREES OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT. Sessio Quarta, Fourth Session, celebrata die VIII. Aprilis, 1546.A.D.

The Belgic Confession was originally composed in 1561 by Guido de Bres for the churches in Flanders and the Netherlands. It was adopted by a Reformed Synod at Emden, in 1571. During the Synod of Dordt in 1618–1619, several editions of the Confession in differing languages (French, Dutch, and Latin) were carefully examined and an official, revised edition was produced. According to Schaff, “It is, upon the whole, the best symbolical statement of the Calvinistic system of doctrine, with the exception of the Westminster Confession.”385.
385 Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Volume 1: The History of Creeds, p 506.(Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books) 1983.

Article VI, The Difference Between the Canonical and Apocryphal Books, We distinguish those sacred books from the apocryphal, viz: the third and fourth books of Esdras, the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Jesus Sirach, Baruch, the Appendix to the book of Esther, the Song of the Three Children in the Furnace, the History of Susannah, of Bel and the Dragon, the Prayer of Manasseh, and the two books of the Maccabees. All of which the Church may read and take instruction from, so far as they agree with the canonical books; but they are far from having such power and efficacy that we may from their testimony confirm any point of faith or of the Christian religion; much less may they be used to detract from the authority of the other, that is, the sacred books.

Historic Creeds and Confessions, ed. Brannan.

I concur with that approach, and stated such earlier.

Every squirrel finds a nut sooner or later. Is B&TD entirely nonsense? No. I'm sure there is an obscure fact contained here and there within that has some value or suitable application.

How much is certainly up for grabs.
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
LAC & squint, neither one of you have a clue what Jesus, the saints, or I am talking about.

Anyone who believes that The Creator God of the O.T. was a lesser evil deity or the demiurge belongs in the unorthodox camp.
 
Upvote 0

SummaScriptura

Forever Newbie
May 30, 2007
6,986
1,051
Scam Francisco
Visit site
✟56,955.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Bel and the Dragon, is not included in the text of the Book of Daniel in the traditional protestant bible but it appears as a deutrocanonical book in the Apocrypha....I'm not sure of the jump of logic between the Apocrypha and gnosticism.
I am prepared to defend any questionable passages from the disputed books of the Old Testament here.

Please inform me of the problem you find in Bel?

It is my opinion that the problematic passages in those books present problems of a kind similar to passages found in non-disputed books. All of the books, both universally accepted ones, as well as not-universally accepted ones, require interpretation and can be defended when properly contextualized (or disputed if the proper bias is employed).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Targaryen

Scripture,Tradition and Reason
Jul 13, 2014
3,431
558
Canada
✟36,699.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-NDP
LAC & squint, neither one of you have a clue what Jesus, the saints, or I am talking about.

I'd rather say it's you that doesn't understand at all, not us. Sorry but you ran with a supposition, no facts at all. No history, just a rather narrow minded point of view.

It's lazy debating number one, and number two it's just plain faulty.
 
Upvote 0

Targaryen

Scripture,Tradition and Reason
Jul 13, 2014
3,431
558
Canada
✟36,699.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-NDP
I am prepared to defend any questionable passages from the disputed books of the Old Testament here.

Please inform me of the problem you find in Bel?

It is my opinion that the problematic passages in those books present problems of a kind similar to passages found in non-disputed books. All of the book require interpretation and can be defended when properly contextualized.


My question of a jump in logic between the Apocrypha (in which Bel and the Dragon is a part of) and gnosticism was what I was questioning as someone raised that connection in an earlier post.

I personally am not questioning the tone of the piece.
 
Upvote 0

SummaScriptura

Forever Newbie
May 30, 2007
6,986
1,051
Scam Francisco
Visit site
✟56,955.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
My question of a jump in logic between the Apocrypha (in which Bel and the Dragon is a part of) and gnosticism was what I was questioning as someone raised that connection in an earlier post.

I personally am not questioning the tone of the piece.
To what 'jump in logic' do you refer?
 
Upvote 0

SummaScriptura

Forever Newbie
May 30, 2007
6,986
1,051
Scam Francisco
Visit site
✟56,955.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Someone made a statement that seemed to compare the text of Bel and Dragon, and for that matter the deutrocanon to that of the gnostic texts. I was unsure of why they made that conclusion.
Ah...

'I see' said the blind man.
 
Upvote 0

Erose

Newbie
Jul 2, 2010
9,009
1,471
✟75,992.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Part of Daniel being cited therein certainly doesn't put it on equal ground, at least imho.

Why not? If the Apsotles referenced the Greek translation of Daniel, which has the stories of Bel and the Dragon in them, why wouldn't that be important?
 
Upvote 0
G

GratiaCorpusChristi

Guest

Books of the 'Broader Deuterocanon'
(Books which have had limited acceptance, only being accepted in one or more branch of Orthodoxy)


The Book of Enoch
The Book of Jubilees
The Prayer of Manasseh
1 Esdras
2 Esdras (The Ezra Apocalypse)
3 Maccabees
Psalm 151
Psalms 152-155
The Ascension of Isaiah
The Rest of the Words of Baruch
The Apocalypse of Baruch

_________________________________
+ 9 books
+ 1 book with additional chapters

Other Books under consideration along with these groups
(Books with limited acceptance in historic times, only being accepted in historical times by a certain Orthodox group)


The Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
Joseph and Asenath

The Lives of the Prophets
The Psalms of Solomon
4 Maccabees
___________________________________
+ 5 books

I was not aware that anyone ever included the texts I've bolded in their canons, even as appendices.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Someone made a statement that seemed to compare the text of Bel and Dragon, and for that matter the deutrocanon to that of the gnostic texts. I was unsure of why they made that conclusion.
Anyone who reads Hebrew-Daniel with some care cannot help but notice how unlike the Pentateuch and the major Prophets (Ezekiel excepted) it is. If one wants to select the canon on the basis of some kind of literary credibility or probability then all of the apocalyptic literature would go the way of exclusion from the canon. In fact the New testament apocalyptic literature would too.
 
Upvote 0

WisdomTree

Philosopher
Feb 2, 2012
4,018
170
Lincoln
✟23,579.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I was not aware that anyone ever included the texts I've bolded in their canons, even as appendices.

Some of those used to be accepted by the Armenian Apostolic Church (Miaphysite), however instead of a regular canonical status they were given an "extra canonical" status pretty much similar to the Lutheran Apocrypha, I think... What their status is now though, I have no idea.

There was also a Church (with valid Apostolic Succession) which used to accept the Saint Paul's Third Letter to the Corinthians, but got removed.
 
Upvote 0

squint

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2007
16,182
903
Mountain Regions
✟20,405.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Why not? If the Apsotles referenced the Greek translation of Daniel, which has the stories of Bel and the Dragon in them, why wouldn't that be important?

It would appear that your sect considered them to not be on an equal level.
 
Upvote 0

MoreCoffee

Repentance works.
Jan 8, 2011
29,860
2,841
Near the flying spaghetti monster
✟65,348.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
It would have to be a fourth if you count the forgery above. ;)
It is the lost third letter, the genuine article. It starts thus:
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Coffee, our brother, to the church that is in Corinth a holy people called by God to fellowship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Grace, mercy, and peace to you and to all the household of God, born in union with Jesus through the waters of baptism and filled with the Spirit by the anointing with the oil of gladness before witnesses in the household of God.

I offer thanks to our Lord Jesus Christ for you all that all of you are walking according to the faith and that your have adopted the discipline of the Spirit in your fellowship; being freed from all immorality and vice and walking according to the commandments of the Lord. He is our strength in times of trouble and the light in dark places into which some of you must walk for the sake of the faith that was delivered to you at my hand and at the hands of our brethren Timothy and Silvanus.

Our hope is secure in Christ and …
 
Upvote 0