Determinism

[Hammster]

What is your views on determinism in conjunction with a sovereign God? Is it just for salvation, or does it go to other aspects of life? Can you argue for determinism?

 

[bradfordl]

Please define what you are meaning by the word determinism.

 

[Hammster]

that God's sovereignty determines all things.

 

[bradfordl]

Then my view is that He determines the existence of, and every movement of, every single particle, wave, force, and anything else there might be in all that has, does and ever will exist in absolute meticulous precision.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Then my view is that He determines the existence of, and every movement of, every single particle, wave, force, and anything else there might be in all that has, does and ever will exist in absolute meticulous precision.

I agree

I don't see how you can take any other view without God loosing his ability to control the world and its outcomes.

 

[arunma]

that God's sovereignty determines all things.

I would certainly agree that God exercises his sovereignty (i.e. his kingly right to rule) to ordain all things. This doesn't negate the fact that he often works through natural means, or that he doesn't offer us choices in life. And it by no means abrogates human personal responsibility. But I don't see how any Biblically-informed view of God would suggest that he doesn't ordain all events that occur throughout history.

 

[Hammster]

How then would you explain my disbelief in determinism? And if you convinced me to be a determinist, would that still be determinism?

 

[bradfordl]

How then would you explain my disbelief in determinism? And if you convinced me to be a determinist, would that still be determinism?

God has determined that you disbelieve it. If you ever changed your mind, that change would have been determined by God before the foundations of the world.

Next question... why does He yet find fault?... answer in Romans 9.

 

[Hammster]

What if God determined that I have free will to make moral choices?

 

[ReformedChapin]

What if God determined that I have free will to make moral choices?

What if God was in total control of everything? Oh wait he is. What's your point?

 

[Hammster]

If I make a free moral choice, then is it still determinism, or does God, in His sovereignty, allow me to make the free choice?

 

[bradfordl]

What if God determined that I have free will to make moral choices?

What if God created a stone too heavy for Him to lift?

Both of these questions are incoherent. Another would be could God create a number greater than the largest natural number.

If God has determined all things, then determining that any of His creatures could independently determine anything without His prior knowledge destroys any coherence to His ability to determine all things.

From another forum:

Now a coherent question would be, can God cause a contradiction to be true. And the only rational answer would be that it is unknowable because a true contradiction is rationally inconceivable. As a Christian we can reply that our concept of God, revealed to us in Scripture, can not lie and is not irrational; so we have no reason to say God can cause a necessarily false conclusion to be true.

Thus, for God to have determined that you had a free will that could determine anything He had not determined would make God a liar, which is impossible.

 

[mlqurgw]

Whatever God doesn't control in absolute perfect sovereignty controls Him. Whatever controls Him is God. If He doesn't determine every minute particle of existence and how it relates to everything else then something may happen that takes Him by surprise and His Godhood falls to the ground. What you call, in a derogatory way I might add, Determinism I call His gracious purpose and wise providence. God, in infinite wisdom, power and grace determined to glorify Himself in the salvation of sinners. He determined exactly how it would come to pass to bring Him all the glory and every detail of human history to declare it. God does not react to what men do. If He did He would be just like us, ever changing. That in no way negates that men do exactly according to their will nor relieve them of their responsibility. Men naturally hate God but still always choose to do exactly as God has determined for them to do to the glory of His name and the good of His people. The wrath of man shall praise Him and the remainder of wrath He shall restrain. Psa. 76:10. God so minutely controls it that by their wicked wills they fulfill the very purpose of God.

 

[Hammster]

I am going to try to tackle 2 at once. The question about God allowing me to make free moral choices cannot be incoherent since it can be backed up biblically. God does have a sovereign will, but He also has a moral will. If His entire will was sovereign, at least after salvation we would not sin. There are too many verses in the epistles (like most of them) that give us direction and tell us God's will. God's sovereign will dictates the outcome (heaven for believers, hell for unbelievers) but by Him allowing us to make decisions in life in no way negates His sovereignty. Because of His omnipotence He can use the choices we make to carry out His sovereign will. It is not saying that I have determined something that God had not determined if God Himself has given me a choice. His omnipotence knows the outcome, so it isn't like I am going to do something that catches Him off guard.

I have not used 'determinism' in a derogatory way. If I had used fatalism, that would have been derogatory.

I do always find it interesting that most Calvinists will say that we only have free will to sin, because God allows it, but everything else is determined.

Anyway, should I change my view on determinism, or whatever you would call it that would not be offensive?

 

[bradfordl]

The question about God allowing me to make free moral choices cannot be incoherent since it can be backed up biblically.

This statement is simply not true. It can only be represented as true by ignoring other passages that render this inerpretation incongrous. Scripture interprets scripture, not man's fleshly presuppositions.

God does have a sovereign will, but He also has a moral will. If His entire will was sovereign, at least after salvation we would not sin. There are too many verses in the epistles (like most of them) that give us direction and tell us God's will. God's sovereign will dictates the outcome (heaven for believers, hell for unbelievers) but by Him allowing us to make decisions in life in no way negates His sovereignty.

But you negate in this the possibility of your own position; that man's will is 'free'. You seem to be saying God plays some sort of 'peek-a-boo' with Himself, and that is not only incoherent, it is ludicrous.

Because of His omnipotence He can use the choices we make to carry out His sovereign will.

Kind of like using a string to guide a spinning top, right? But if the top is actually independent, or 'free' as you call it, God has no way of knowing its not going to suddenly skip off in a wrong direction and fall off a curb. Unless the top has that ability, it is not 'free'.

It is not saying that I have determined something that God had not determined if God Himself has given me a choice. His omnipotence knows the outcome, so it isn't like I am going to do something that catches Him off guard.

Then your choice is not 'free'. You sound like a calvinist.

I do always find it interesting that most Calvinists will say that we only have free will to sin, because God allows it, but everything else is determined.

I don't know if 'most' do, this one doesn't. I hold to equal ultimacy. And I agree that the position you describe is inconsistent.

 

[Hammster]

Then I shall let scripture interpret scripture.

God tells us to repent (an 'ought to' statement meaning that I either can choose to repent, or choose not to repent) Luke 13:3. If it was a sovereign command as opposed to a moral command, then all would have to repent, as God is sovereign and all His commands will be obeyed. However, if it is part of His moral will, then we have a choice. Free will is not doing whatever one wants or desires, but doing what one chooses. I choose to do something which I could have chosen to do otherwise.

We given a choice to believe (John 3:16, 3:36, Acts 16:31).

God does not wish any should perish (2 peter 3:9). If this was sovereign will, then you would have to hold to universalism.

We believers should abstain from sexual immorality (1 Thes 4:3-8). Do all believers abstain from sexual immorality (or any sin for that matter)?

It is God's will that we should be in subjection to all authority (1 Peter 2:13-15) yet Christians still break the speed limit, run stop signs, cheat on their taxes, etc.

You can look at the 10 commandments. God, by His will, gave the commandments, yet we break them all of the time. (Hence the need for a Savior).

It does seem that God gives us choices, and gives commands that we do not follow by our own free choice. We can choose to lie, or not lie. We can choose to steal, or not steal. We can choose to break the speed limit, or not break the speed limit. If these things were determined by God, there would be no need for rewards or punishment, since we were only doing what we were compelled to do.

Well, I guess that is enough for now. Still wanting to know, though, if I should change my view on determinism.

 

[bradfordl]

<Sigh> I get so tired of going over the list of scriptures you posted with those in error to show the complete lack of context that you are foisting upon them, so I'm gonna just forego the excersize. It is likely futile anyway. God will open your eyes when and to the degree He determines, so I'll just leave it to Him.

He has declared what is right and what is wrong. He has commanded all to adhere to that declaration. If it were His will that all do so, then all would, so either it is your version, that God is in conflict with Himself, or it is the biblical version that all of His creation declares His glory:

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Maybe someone less weary of this sort of inanity will help with your miscontextualities.

 

[Hammster]

If you are going to be consistent, then why sigh? You really should be praising God because His will is being carried out, correct? After all, I am just doing what He determines.

I guess I could have posted the whole passage to show that the verses were in context, but I figured reasonable people would understand that.

I guess the thing that really baffles me is that Calvinst claim that those of us who hold a different view of God's sovereignty (i.e. that He can and does allow us to make moral decisions, thus maintaining His sovereignty), are really the ones who limit it. You are the ones who say that God can't do something logical that is within His power. And when you get pushed on it, you sigh, or marginalize, or just quit. But then again, I suppose you just don't have choice.

 

[ReformedChapin]

If you are going to be consistent, then why sigh? You really should be praising God because His will is being carried out, correct? After all, I am just doing what He determines.

Because God's will is being carried that doesnt imply that his will isn't frustrating for us sinners.

I guess I could have posted the whole passage to show that the verses were in context, but I figured reasonable people would understand that.

Please do so if you find it necessery.

I guess the thing that really baffles me is that Calvinst claim that those of us who hold a different view of God's sovereignty (i.e. that He can and does allow us to make moral decisions, thus maintaining His sovereignty), are really the ones who limit it. You are the ones who say that God can't do something logical that is within His power. And when you get pushed on it, you sigh, or marginalize, or just quit. But then again, I suppose you just don't have choice.

I don't get it. God can do logical that is within his power? Of course, just because he can accomplsih a task doesnt imply he does. Another issue is that I don't see how God's soverignty is in line with Free will. If man is free without absolute influence from God (an inscriptural view) than God therefore cannot be in control since that variable is without manipulation.

 

[Hammster]

I am sorry...where did I say or imply that man is free without absolute influence from God?

It appears to me that because I may hold similar views to arminians, you believe that I hold to their beliefs. I don't believe that man can save himself apart from God. I believe there is influence from God.

You had a choice to either respond, or not respond to my post. If that isn't free will, then what is it. If God allowed you to make that choice (God has free will, and we are made in His image), how is that limiting God's sovereignty, since He, in His sovereignty, allowed you to make that choice?

And, just to make it interesting, here is a passage in context.

Therefore submit (an 'ought to' statement) yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good (yet one which we frequently disobey). For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men—as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king. (Another 'ought to' command.)

And just for context, the paragraph before talks about abstaining from fleshly lusts (a command that we can violate), and the paragraph after talks about being good employees/servants.

If God is sovereign in the way that I understand you to me sovereign, then by His preventing you from obeying would be going against Himself.