Determinism

[Hammster]

I am not sure how I get misunderstood. I guess I will have to work on being more clear.

I don't think I have ever stated that God isn't the first cause. I can't make an independent decision apart from God in the same way I can't breathe apart from God.

It seems people keep mistaking my view for something it's not. I do not believe man has free will to do whatever he wants. That would make him omnipotent. What man does have, however, is the ability, God given, to make moral choices; to make a decision to do or not do something. Can God intervene? Of course. He is God. Does He always? No He doesn't.

 

[bradfordl]

I am not sure how I get misunderstood. I guess I will have to work on being more clear.

I don't think I have ever stated that God isn't the first cause. I can't make an independent decision apart from God in the same way I can't breathe apart from God.

It seems people keep mistaking my view for something it's not. I do not believe man has free will to do whatever he wants. That would make him omnipotent. What man does have, however, is the ability, God given, to make moral choices; to make a decision to do or not do something. Can God intervene? Of course. He is God. Does He always? No He doesn't.

Well Hamm, you were the one asking if God determines all things. You have agreed that in His omniscience He knows all things to come, and that He is the first cause of all things. If these things are so, then His intervening or not is something determined beforehand, right? Its not as though a situation arises and He tosses a coin to decide what to do, or decides a case on it's merits, He has determined the situation and it's outcome in eternity before.

So if we're in agreement that God has determined all events beforehand in eternity, what exactly was your question?

 

[heymikey80]

I am not sure how I get misunderstood. I guess I will have to work on being more clear.

I don't think I have ever stated that God isn't the first cause. I can't make an independent decision apart from God in the same way I can't breathe apart from God.

Good, and not a problem. I think you'll find there's more to this connection than you might think, because morality is also involved in determinism. As I came from a philosophical background that demands these two be together ... well, let's pursue this on a Scriptural level, as I had to do this to get rid of some of my philosophical baggage, and it's likely going to be more trustworthy than human philosophy.

It seems people keep mistaking my view for something it's not. I do not believe man has free will to do whatever he wants. That would make him omnipotent. What man does have, however, is the ability, God given, to make moral choices; to make a decision to do or not do something.

Again, that humans can make choices that have moral import, no opposition there. But to think that humans can make choices that are inherently good, that would again make them into being God. "God alone is good." "The heart is desperately wicked" "Can a leopard change his spots? So then can my people do good who are accustomed to evil."

In order to make a decision that is morally pure, corrupted humans need something that's not theirs to exercise.

Can God intervene? Of course. He is God. Does He always? No He doesn't.

Again, yes, agreed.

 

[Hammster]

Well, mike and bradfor, thanks for your responses. To be able to ask questions and work things through has been pleasant. I apologize for my impatience at times.

As you can see from the responses, some Calvinists do believe that determinism means that God has to control every aspect of our lives like we are puppets. Glad to see some are reasonable.

Mike, I almost had a kneejerk reaction to your paragraph about moral decisions and being good, but I think I understand what you mean.

Well, until the next thing pops into my head, toodles.

 

[bradfordl]

You gotta love this guy. I'm just shaking and scratching my head and laughing out loud.

Just completely random.

Have fun out there, Hammster.

 

[heymikey80]

As you can see from the responses, some Calvinists do believe that determinism means that God has to control every aspect of our lives like we are puppets. Glad to see some are reasonable.

Um, the problem with this visual model is not that God is so intensely involved in our lives.

The problem with this "puppet" model is that in the model we are not involved in our lives. And that's an error. We aren't wood, carried along by a personhood which is in God. We are persons, supported and supplied and related-to as persons by the Sustaining Person.

It's more like a person who owns a huge fish tank, and gets involved in what goes on there. He supplies the water. He injects Himself into the events there. He's in control.

God's in much more control.

Mike, I almost had a kneejerk reaction to your paragraph about moral decisions and being good, but I think I understand what you mean.

Yeah, that one's still easy to state poorly -- I've too few people I've found to help me say what I want to say there, so far.

And I'm such a big fan of Spinoza and Ghandi, it's hard for me to work without considering that their actions were indisputably for good -- and yet still twinging from the sins still living in both. We can be heroes, we can accomplish much to seem we're rising from this depth of sin. But none of us have become gods to get us out of here.

But God has become one of us.

Dang! We gotta get to sleep to get to Church, Hammster! Peace & Favor!