"desecration" of the "holy place"

[David Kent]

What the argument comes down to is the 2300 referring to the number of lambs sacrificed or the number of days within which that the sacrifice of the lambs will not be happening.

Daniel 8:14 is referring to a period of time in the end times - 2300 days. During the 2300 days the daily sacrifice will begin again and then later during the same 2300 days, the daily sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the 7 years.

Then as it says in Daniel 8:13, once the daily sacrifice is stopped, the transgression of desolation will take place, and the sanctuary and the Jews (the host) will thereafter will be trodden under foot.

The fault in your logic is that you don't acknowledge that the daily sacrifice is a unit of two lambs being sacrificed everyday.

In Daniel 9:27, what does it say...the sacrifice or the sacrifices?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The little horn in Daniel 8 is Antiochus, however you read it that is speaking about the Greek empire, in particular, the Seleucid empire,
Daniel 9:27 is about the Lord Lord Jesus who confirmed the Covent with the Jews for one week and in the midst of the week caused the sacrifice to cease by his death on the Cross.
The little horn in Daniel 7 is the Papacy, fulfilled in history, being fulfilled now and will be finally fulfilled in the near future.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 9:27 makes it quite clear that the regular sacrifice and offerings will be stopped at the mid point of the final 7 years before Jesus Returns.
For 1260 days, confirmed by Revelation 13.
Posting charts, as above, which are so obviously wrong, is a sad reflection of your confusion and errors.

No, not stopped at the mid-point, but in the middle of, in the midst of, the 7 year 70th week.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. kjv

Revelation 13 does not contain the 1260 day term, but the 42 months term (verse 5). And the stopping of the daily sacrifice is not in Revelation 13.

 

[Douggg]

The little horn in Daniel 8 is Antiochus, however you read it that is speaking about the Greek empire, in particular, the Seleucid empire,

The little horn in Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 is the same person. In Daniel 7, he comes out of the fourth empire, not the third empire.

Daniel 9:27 is about the Lord Lord Jesus who confirmed the Covent with the Jews for one week and in the midst of the week caused the sacrifice to cease bu his death on the Cross.

Didn't happen. The daily sacrifice continued another 40 years after Jesus' death on the Cross.

The little horn in Daniel 7 is the Papacy, fulfilled in history, being fulfilled now and will be finally fulfilled in the near future.

The little horn in Daniel 8 stops the daily sacrifice - I thought you said Jesus stopped the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27 ?

 

[keras]

No, not stopped at the mid-point, but in the middle of, in the midst of, the 7 year 70th week.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. kjv

Revelation 13 does not contain the 1260 day term, but the 42 months term (verse 5). And the stopping of the daily sacrifice is not in Revelation 13.

You know very well that the stopping of the sacrifices and the Abomination in the Temple. will happen when the first half of the 7 year treaty has passed. REB. After 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 126- days. Leaving another 3 1/2 years, or 42 months. or 1260 days until Jesus Returns.

Your arguments are just pedantics, not really worth addressing.

 

[Douggg]

You know very well that the stopping of the sacrifices and the Abomination in the Temple. will happen when the first half of the 7 year treaty has passed. REB. After 3 1/2 years, or 42 months, or 126- days. Leaving another 3 1/2 years, or 42 months. or 1260 days until Jesus Returns.

Your arguments are just pedantics, not really worth addressing.

Do a copy and paste of the whole verse of Daniel 9:27 from the REB that you are using.

You are the one who thinks that the first half of the 7 years will have passed before the person stops the daily sacrifice - not me.

You are also the one who thinks the 7 years is a treaty - not me.

The 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is after the beast-king has killed the two witnesses. "Who can make war wit him?" the world will therefore say, Revelation 13:4.

 

[David Kent]

The little horn in Daniel 8 and Daniel 7 is the same person. In Daniel 7, he comes out of the fourth empire, not the third empire.

The little horn in Daniel 8 comes out of the third, Greek, empire so must be a Greek king.
The little horn in Daniel 7 comes out fourth, Roman, empire so must be head of Rome.

The little horn in Daniel 8 stops the daily sacrifice - I thought you said Jesus stopped the daily sacrifice in Daniel 9:27 ?

Antiochus stopped the sacrifice for a year.
I didn't say Jesus stopped the sacrifice.

Didn't happen. The daily sacrifice continued another 40 years after Jesus' death on the Cross.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

His cutting off in the midst of the week was the cause of the sacrifice ceasing, although it continued for about 40 years, his death was the cause.

 

[Douggg]

The little horn in Daniel 8 comes out of the third, Greek, empire so must be a Greek king.
The little horn in Daniel 7 comes out fourth, Roman, empire so must be head of Rome.

Daniel 8:9 is the geographic location which the time of the end little horn waxes strong from, not that he is part of the Greek empire. btw, at the time of Antiochus, the Roman Empire was in power. Who do who think made Antiochus in Daniel 11:30 turn around?

So it is not Antiochus on three accounts - the Roman Empire had come to power, and Antiochus was not time of the end, and Antiochus did not stand up against the Prince of princes Jesus.

Antiochus stopped the sacrifice for a year.
I didn't say Jesus stopped the sacrifice.

You said both. From your post #221, you wrote that Jesus caused the sacrifice to cease...

Daniel 9:27 is about the Lord Lord Jesus who confirmed the Covent with the Jews for one week and in the midst of the week caused the sacrifice to cease bu his death on the Cross.

His cutting off in the midst of the week was the cause of the sacrifice ceasing, although it continued for about 40 years, his death was the cause.

If it continued for another 40 years - it did not cease.

Daniel 8, the little horn person time of the end, and Daniel 9:26-27 the prince who shall come - is the same person. And the stopping of the daily sacrifice in both Daniel 8:11-13 and Daniel 9:27 is the same event.

The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8, and the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27 - is the same person

 

[keras]

Do a copy and paste of the whole verse of Daniel 9:27 from the REB that you are using.

Daniel 9:27 The prince will make a firm league with the many for one of the seventy and with one half spent, he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering. And in the train of these abominations will come the perpetrator of desolation, then; in the end, what has been decreed concerning this desolation, will be poured out.

You are the one who thinks that the first half of the 7 years will have passed before the person stops the daily sacrifice - not me.

Plainly, I am correct.
Logically, there is a peace agreement and it holds for half of the period agreed upon. Then it is broken, as Zechariah 14:1-2 so graphically describes.

The 42 months in Revelation 13:5 is after the beast-king has killed the two witnesses

Obviously from Revelation 11:1-13, the 2 Witnesses preach during the second half of the 7 year period. Jesus will raise them up when He Returns.

 

[David Kent]

Daniel 8:9 is the geographic location which the time of the end little horn waxes strong from, not that he is part of the Greek empire. btw, at the time of Antiochus, the Roman Empire was in power. Who do who think made Antiochus in Daniel 11:30 turn around?

So it is not Antiochus on three accounts - the Roman Empire had come to power, and Antiochus was not time of the end, and Antiochus did not stand up against the Prince of princes Jesus.


You said both. From your post #221, you wrote that Jesus caused the sacrifice to cease...

Daniel 9:27 is about the Lord Lord Jesus who confirmed the Covent with the Jews for one week and in the midst of the week caused the sacrifice to cease bu his death on the Cross.



If it continued for another 40 years - it did not cease.

Daniel 8, the little horn person time of the end, and Daniel 9:26-27 the prince who shall come - is the same person. And the stopping of the daily sacrifice in both Daniel 8:11-13 and Daniel 9:27 is the same event.

The little horn of Daniel 7 and 8, and the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27 - is the same person

The Roman's made Antiochus turn round from attacking Egypt because Egypt was a Roman protectorate. But that was only because the Roman ambassador drew a line round him and said he must withdraw fro attacking Egypt, and must give a reply before he crossed that line. Antiochus attacked the Jews instead and desecrated the temple and stopped the sacrifice and crucified hundreds of Jews,? but Rome didn't stop him doing that.
Rome didn't occupy Egypt till much later when Antony, Cleopatra and Herod, stood up against Octavius. Syria fell Rome later than Antiochus but before Egypt.

No, not stopped at the mid-point, but in the middle of, in the midst of, the 7 year 70th week.

So what is the difference?

Jesus died in the middle of a prophetic week and also in the middle of the prophetic week.

 

[Douggg]

So what is the difference?

Jesus died in the middle of a prophetic week and also in the middle of the prophetic week.

There will be a chain of events...

stoppage of the daily sacrifice (Daniel 8 and 9) >
then the transgression desolation act (Daniel 8:13) (2Thessalonaians2:4) >
then revealed man of sin killed (Ezekiel 28:1-10) >
then brought back to life (Isaiah 14:18-20) >
then becomes the beast (king) (Revelation 17:11) >
then the abomination of desolation statue image made of him (Revelation 13:14)
and placed on the temple mount (Matthew 24:15), the great tribulation begins
1335 days before Jesus returns (Daniel 12:12).

day 2520 -1335 days = day 1185 (of the 7years) that the AoD will be placed on the temple mount and the great tribulation begins.

That chain of events will take place and begin in the middle portion of the 70th week. There is not enough information to pinpoint the exact day on the time line when the daily sacrifice will be stopped. What can be pinpointed is the day that the abomination of desolation will be placed on the temple mount - 1335 days before Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

Plainly, I am correct.
Logically, there is a peace agreement and it holds for half of the period agreed upon. Then it is broken, as Zechariah 14:1-2 so graphically describes.

Nothing about a peace treaty in Daniel 9:27, nor Zechariah 14:1-2.

 

[claninja]

View attachment 335760


It is not how lambs that are sacrificed daily, but how long the period of time is beginning with the daily sacrifice starting up again in the end times until Jesus returns and cleanses the temple mount of those thing that will have made it desolate.

Well, that’s Incorrect. the sanctuary would be restored AFTER a period of 2300 evenings-mornings.

Daniel 8:14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

The vision is about the regular burnt offering ceasing, the sanctuary being desolated, and the host being trampled for 2300 evenings-mornings until the sanctuary is restored. So the regular burnt offering doesn’t begin again during the the period of 2300 - it’s ceased.

 

[Douggg]

Well, that’s Incorrect. the sanctuary would be restored AFTER a period of 2300 evenings-mornings.

Daniel 8:14He said to me, “It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be properly restored.”

The "it" in your sentence is the time of the end vision - containing those three things in Daniel 8:13.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Restored, cleansed, from what ? Being made desolate. Restored by removing those things that made it desolate. And in Daniel 8:13, the little horn person. And in Revelation 13, the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast-king. And Satan when he will be cast down to earth, Ezekiel 28:16-19.

The time of the end vision will be 2300 days, started by an act concerning the daily sacrifice - that's what to look for in the time of the end,

Since we are living in the time of the end, and no temple in place, first a temple must be built, and then the day that the daily sacrifice begins again will be day 1 of the 2300 days.

 

[claninja]

The "it" in your sentence is the time of the end vision - containing those three things in Daniel 8:13.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Restored, cleansed, from what ? Being made desolate. Restored by removing those things that made it desolate. And in Daniel 8:13, the little horn person. And in Revelation 13, the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast-king. And Satan when he will be cast down to earth, Ezekiel 28:16-19.

The time of the end vision will be 2300 days, started by an act concerning the daily sacrifice - that's what to look for in the time of the end,

Since we are living in the time of the end, and no temple in place, first a temple must be built, and then the day that the daily sacrifice begins again will be day 1 of the 2300 days.



View attachment 335839

For a period of 2300 evenings and mornings the regular burnt offering would cease, the temple desolate, and the host trampled, THEN the sanctuary would be restored.

It’s completely wrong to say the regular burnt offering begins again at the start of the 2300 evenings and mornings.

 

[DavidPT]

The "it" in your sentence is the time of the end vision - containing those three things in Daniel 8:13.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Restored, cleansed, from what ? Being made desolate. Restored by removing those things that made it desolate. And in Daniel 8:13, the little horn person. And in Revelation 13, the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast-king. And Satan when he will be cast down to earth, Ezekiel 28:16-19.

The time of the end vision will be 2300 days, started by an act concerning the daily sacrifice - that's what to look for in the time of the end,

Since we are living in the time of the end, and no temple in place, first a temple must be built, and then the day that the daily sacrifice begins again will be day 1 of the 2300 days.



View attachment 335839

You are obviously making all the right connections except you are no different than these Preterists around here. Just like them, you too think everything has to be meaning in a literal sense. That equals interpreting these things with a carnal mind rather than with a spiritual mind. Obviously, what is recorded in Daniel 8 involving this little horn in question, this is pertaining to 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Revelation 13, to name a few, and that these NT passages prove that what is recorded in Daniel 8 involving the little horn is not involving a literal brick and mortar temple.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Why don't Preterists, and those that agree with Preterists, such as @Fullness of the Gentiles, concerning the little horn in Daniel 8, think the temple per 2 Thessalonians 2:4 will need to be cleansed at some point? Except one can't apply the cleansing of the temple per Daniel 8 to that of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 if one is already applying that to the days of A4E. As if the cleansing of a brick and mortar temple is far more important than the cleansing of a spiritual temple. Especially the fact brick and mortar temples are no longer relevant, and that a spiritual temple is, and that Daniel 8 clearly, undeniably, says the time of the little horn, it is for the time of the end. How can anyone possibly think the time of the end is involving BC rather than AD and that that makes good sense? That makes about as much sense as 2 Thessalonians 2:4 involving a literal brick and mortar temple does.

 

[Zao is life]

Why don't Preterists, and those that agree with Preterists, such as @Fullness of the Gentiles, concerning the little horn in Daniel 8, think the temple per 2 Thessalonians 2:4 will need to be cleansed at some point?

Of course the New Testament Temple will need to be cleansed. There is an Old Testament little horn who came in history and did what the prophecy said he was going to do.

And there is a New Testament little horn that will be just like him, but even worse than him, who will come and do whatever Daniel said the Old Testament little horn and the New Testament little horn were going to do, and fulfill whatever part of the prophecy was not fulfilled by A4E.

 

[Douggg]

For a period of 2300 evenings and mornings the regular burnt offering would cease, the temple desolate, and the host trampled, THEN the sanctuary would be restored.

It does not say that the daily sacrifice will be restored at the end of the 2300 days.

 

[DavidPT]

It does not say that the daily sacrifice will be restored at the end of the 2300 days.

Exactly! And that is a relevant valid point worth noting.

 

[keras]

It does not say that the daily sacrifice will be restored at the end of the 2300 days.

Exactly! And that is a relevant valid point worth noting.

Actually, thinking that after the 2300 evenings and mornings are over, the sacrifices and offerings do not restart; is a display of confusion and desperation to make wrong beliefs fit Prophecy.

Maccabees 4:52-58 describes them.

 

[claninja]

It does not say that the daily sacrifice will be restored at the end of the 2300 days.

How long til the fulfillment of the vision about the regular burnt offering (which would be ceased), the desolation, and the trampling of the sanctuary and host?

it says the sanctuary would be restored, AFTER 2300 evenings-mornings. The restoration of the sanctuary implies the desolation and trampling are finished, and that the daily burnt offerings are ready to resume.

It makes zero sense that the regular burnt offering would resume 2300 evenings-mornings BEFORE the sanctuary was restored. How is the daily burnt offering being resumed if the sanctuary is not restored (still desolate and being trampled)?

Now if you are about to tell me a bunch of different things that are not mentioned in Daniel 8, then your argument of “It does not say that the daily sacrifice will be restored at the end of the 2300 days.” is moot.