"desecration" of the "holy place"

[claninja]

The little horn person stands up against the Prince of princes Jesus in Daniel 8:25. That is a future event of when the beast king and the false prophet and the dragon Satan convince the kings of the earth to make war on Jesus.

Not future, but past. AE4 stood up or withstood the “prince of princes” near the end of the greek empire.

 

[Zao is life]

Whatever. The fact is the little horn came out of the Greek empire

You must be reading a different bible from me.
The first thing Jesus said was that not one stone would stand on another.

Mark 13:1-9 And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

You're the one reading a different Bible, and not reading what I said either. The first thing Jesus spoke about after sitting down on the Mount of Olives was the tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were going to experience.

In my post that you are replying to above I spoke not about what Jesus said before He sat down on the Mount of Olives, nor what He said before He had even left the Temple Mount just after coming out of the temple and beginning to walk away from it.

"Now as Jesus was going out of the temple courts and walking away, his disciples came to show him the temple buildings.

And he said to them, "Do you see all these things? I tell you the truth, not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!" (Matthew 23:37-24:2).
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After coming out of the temple Jesus then walked down the mountain, and crossed through the Kidron Valley to the Mount of Olives (which is opposite the Temple Mount), walked to the top, and sat down after reaching the top.

"And in the days He was teaching in the temple. And in the nights He went out, and lodged in the mount called the Mount of Olives." (Luke 21:37).
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After He sat down on the Mount of Olives, Jesus' disciples asked Him about the temple in Jerusalem (of which He has said that not one stone would be left upon another), but He answers by telling them about the tribulation that the living stones of the New Testament Temple were going to experience:​

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Luke 21
8-11 And He said, "Take heed that you are not deceived, for many shall come in My name, saying, I AM! Also, The time has come! Do not go after them.
But when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified, for all these things must first occur, but the end is not at once.
And He said to them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
And great earthquakes shall be in different places, and famines and plagues. And there shall be terrors and great signs from Heaven.

12-19 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. And it shall return to you for a testimony. Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand what you shall answer. For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
And you shall be betrayed also by parents and brothers and kinsmen and friends. And they will cause some of you to be put to death. And you shall be hated by all for My name's sake. But there shall not a hair of your head perish. By your patience you will gain your souls."

Mark 13
5-13: Jesus began to say to them, "Watch out that no one misleads you. Many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he,' and they will mislead many.
When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. These things must happen, but the end is still to come.
For nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
There will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines. These are but the beginning of birth pains.

You must watch out for yourselves. You will be handed over to councils and beaten in the synagogues. You will stand before governors and kings because of me, as a witness to them.

First the gospel must be preached to all nations.

When they arrest you and hand you over for trial, do not worry about what to speak. But say whatever is given you at that time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.
Brother will hand over brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rise against parents and have them put to death.
You will be hated by everyone because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Matthew 24
4-14 And Jesus answered and said to them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many will come in My name, saying, I am Christ, and will deceive many.
And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled, for all these things must occur; but the end is not yet.
For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines and pestilences and earthquakes in different places.

All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
And then many will be offended, and will betray one another, and will hate one another.
And many false prophets will rise and deceive many.
And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many will become cold.

But he who endures to the end, the same shall be kept safe.

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all nations. And then the end shall come."​

So after Jesus sat down on the Mount of Olives and despite the question regarding the Old Testament temple, Jesus opens what He says on the Mount of Olives (i.e during His Olivet Discourse) by speaking about the tribulation that was going to be the experience of the living stones of the New Testament Temple. It's the first thing He said after sitting down on the Mount of Olives.

Not only do you fail to see the difference between the Mount of Olives and the Temple Mount, but you fail to see the difference between the stones of the Old Testament temple and the living stones of the New Testament Temple - which clearly is Jesus answering His disciples' question from God's perspective, not from your human perspective.​

 

[Trivalee]

“daily” means continually or regularly. It was a morning AND evening sacrifice that was offered daily, without cessation (continually).

That would be 2 sacrifices every day - in the am and pm. Therefore 2300 sacrifices would take place over 1150 days. Or in this case 2300 sacrifices would be missed over a period of 1150 days - which literally happened under AE4.

I use multiple translations- the YLT, the KJV, the ESV, and the LXX.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? KJV

Dan 8:13 Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” NLT

When people ignore what a scripture expressly says and read what is not stated, it leads to many problems. The question that was explicitly asked was about the duration of the desecration, i.e. timescale, hence "how long". It's not about the number of sacrifices that would be missed. If it was about missed sacrifices, the question would have been 'how many', instead of how long. The duration is reinforced to avoid ambiguity in the final phrase "to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden underfoot?" Unlike KJV, the NLT provides a modern English interpretation.

The duration is 2300 days, not 1150 days on the basis of the number of sacrifices missed!

But I concur it was fulfilled by A4E during his failed attempt to Hellenize the Jews.

 

[claninja]

Dan 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? KJV

Dan 8:13 Then I heard two holy ones talking to each other. One of them asked, “How long will the events of this vision last? How long will the rebellion that causes desecration stop the daily sacrifices? How long will the Temple and heaven’s army be trampled on?” NLT

When people ignore what a scripture expressly says and read what is not stated, it leads to many problems. The question that was explicitly asked was about the duration of the desecration, i.e. timescale, hence "how long". It's not about the number of sacrifices that would be missed. If it was about missed sacrifices, the question would have been 'how many', instead of how long. The duration is reinforced to avoid ambiguity in the final phrase "to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden underfoot?" Unlike KJV, the NLT provides a modern English interpretation.

The duration is 2300 days, not 1150 days on the basis of the number of sacrifices missed!

But I concur it was fulfilled by A4E during his failed attempt to Hellenize the Jews.

I think the argument that 2300 evening mornings = 2300 days, starting with Antiochus’ persecution of the Jews (143rd year - 1 Maccabees 1) and ending with the dedication of the temple (148th year - 1 Maccabees 4), is more difficult to reconcile.

2 years after the 143rd year, so the 145th year, is when AE4 authorized the desolation of the temple, proclaimed that the Law would no longer be followed, ceased the sacrifices, persecuted many, and set up the abominable idol of desolation (1 Maccabees 1:30-64). the temple was then rededicated in 148th year. This puts the time frame at around 1150 days, which would have been 2300 sacrifices ceased, which is easier to reconcile.

The question is for how long will it be until the vision about the regular burnt offering, the desolation, and the sanctuary and host being trampled, is fulfilled - I think it’s significant that the angel says 2300 “evening-morning” and not 2300 “days”.

from Josephus. In Antiquities12.7.6 (Loeb 12.321–22) he wrote:

“This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apelleus, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad; but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apelleus, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before;”

 

[Trivalee]

I think the argument that 2300 evening mornings = 2300 days, starting with Antiochus’ persecution of the Jews (143rd year - 1 Maccabees 1) and ending with the dedication of the temple (148th year - 1 Maccabees 4), is more difficult to reconcile.

2 years after the 143rd year, so the 145th year, is when AE4 authorized the desolation of the temple, proclaimed that the Law would no longer be followed, ceased the sacrifices, persecuted many, and set up the abominable idol of desolation (1 Maccabees 1:30-64). the temple was then rededicated in 148th year. This puts the time frame at around 1150 days, which would have been 2300 sacrifices ceased, which is easier to reconcile.

The question is for how long will it be until the vision about the regular burnt offering, the desolation, and the sanctuary and host being trampled, is fulfilled - I think it’s significant that the angel says 2300 “evening-morning” and not 2300 “days”.

from Josephus. In Antiquities12.7.6 (Loeb 12.321–22) he wrote:

“This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apelleus, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad; but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apelleus, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before;”

I am familiar with the dates and A4E's Hellenistic atrocities, but my focus is to interpret the scripture as stated in KJV. As I stated before, the question is "How long" will the desecration be, not how many sacrifices will be missed. Some translators have erroneously rendered it 'morning and evening' which makes no sense. If I ask you how long WWII lasted before peace was restored in Europe, will you count it in days or morning and night?

 

[claninja]

I am familiar with the dates and A4E's Hellenistic atrocities, but my focus is to interpret the scripture as stated in KJV. As I stated before, the question is "How long" will the desecration be, not how many sacrifices will be missed. Some translators have erroneously rendered it 'morning and evening' which makes no sense. If I ask you how long WWII lasted before peace was restored in Europe, will you count it in days or morning and night?

It’s not erroneous. The Hebrew literally reads 2300 “evening (ʿereḇ)” - “morning (bōqer)”. The Hebrew word for “days (yôm)” is absent from the passage.

It makes sense in the context of the ceasing of the regular burnt offering, which was conducted in the evening and morning. The ceasing of the regular burnt offering and desolation of the temple would last for 2300 sacrifices - evening and morning- until an its rededication. This would be a period of around 1150 days, which is consistent with what historically happened. This is easier to reconcile than 2300 literal days during AE4’s ceasing of the regular burnt offering.

Example- you brush your teeth in the evening and morning faithfully - but your toothbrush breaks and you miss 10 “teeth brushings”. How many days is that?

 

[Douggg]

Example- you brush your teeth in the evening and morning faithfully - but your toothbrush breaks and you miss 10 “teeth brushings”. How many days is that?

Ten days. Because of the broken tooth brush, you will miss the ten daily teeth brushings.

Now, if you broke your tooth brush, and did not brush your teeth for five days in the morning, and five days in the evening - then that would be five days.

The text does not say 1150 mornings and 1150 evenings.... does it ?

 

[keras]

The text does not say 1150 mornings and 1150 evenings.... does it ?

Daniel 8:14 says the sacrifices will be stopped for 2300 evenings and mornings.
Thinking that means days, is an error, for that would mean 4600 sacrifices were stopped.

The reason this Prophecy and most others, too; are not absolutely clear, is because God does not want all and sundry to know His Plans.
Jesus did say the truths of Prophecy would be hidden from the educated and 'wise' people. Matthew 11:25-26

We must all be very careful how we explain and promote our views on what God has planned for our future.
From all the confused and wildly imaginative ideas about the future, we must not be found to have promoted and taught false theories.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 8:14 says the sacrifices will be stopped for 2300 evenings and mornings.
Thinking that means days, is an error, for that would mean 4600 sacrifices were stopped.

What the argument comes down to is the 2300 referring to the number of lambs sacrificed or the number of days within which that the sacrifice of the lambs will not be happening.

Daniel 8:14 is referring to a period of time in the end times - 2300 days. During the 2300 days the daily sacrifice will begin again and then later during the same 2300 days, the daily sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the 7 years.

Then as it says in Daniel 8:13, once the daily sacrifice is stopped, the transgression of desolation will take place, and the sanctuary and the Jews (the host) will thereafter will be trodden under foot.

The fault in your logic is that you don't acknowledge that the daily sacrifice is a unit of two lambs being sacrificed everyday.

In Daniel 9:27, what does it say...the sacrifice or the sacrifices?

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Douggg]

Daniel 8:14 says the sacrifices will be stopped for 2300 evenings and mornings.

Where in Daniel 8:14 does it say "the sacrifices" ?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

[Douggg]

It’s not erroneous. The Hebrew literally reads 2300 “evening (ʿereḇ)” - “morning (bōqer)”. The Hebrew word for “days (yôm)” is absent from the passage.

Where are you reading sacrifices in Daniel 8:14 ?

 

[keras]

Daniel 8:14 is referring to a period of time in the end times - 2300 days. During the 2300 days the daily sacrifice will begin again and then later during the same 2300 days, the daily sacrifice will be stopped in the middle of the 7 years.

It is obvious that Daniel 8:1-14, is a prophecy about Alexander the Great conquering Persia and then a descendant of one of the four divisions of his empire, conquers Judah again and desecrates the Temple. This did happen, as Josephus and other sources inform us.

In the end times the Anti-Christ 'beast' will again stop the sacrifice, this next time for just 1260 days. Daniel 9:27, Revelation 13

The fault in your logic is that you don't acknowledge that the daily sacrifice is a unit of two lambs being sacrificed everyday.

The serious error in your belief, is to think a morning and an evening sacrifice is one single event.

You are lucky; there is still time for you to correct your 'charts'. Do it now, or risk being caught as a false teacher.

 

[Douggg]

It is obvious that Daniel 8:1-14, is a prophecy about Alexander the Great conquering Persia and then a descendant of one of the four divisions of his empire, conquers Judah again and desecrates the Temple. This did happen, as Josephus and other sources inform us.

The little horn's activities are time of the end. Not historic.

The serious error in your belief, is to think a morning and an evening sacrifice is one single event.

Do a copy and paste of Daniel 8:11, Daniel 8:12, Daniel 8:13 from the translation you are using. kjv......

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

[keras]

The little horn's activities are time of the end. Not historic.

Do a copy and paste of Daniel 8:11, Daniel 8:12, Daniel 8:13 from the translation you are using. kjv......

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

There was a 'little horn' - Antiochus 4 E, there will be another in the end times.
You are quite wrong in thinking this Prophecy remains unfulfilled.

The REB says 'regular offering; in each of those 3 verses.

 

[Douggg]

There was a 'little horn' - Antiochus 4 E, there will be another in the end times.
You are quite wrong in thinking this Prophecy remains unfulfilled.

The REB says 'regular offering; in each of those 3 verses.

So even the REB does not refer to it as being plural, i.e. offerings. The regular offering is two lambs per day. In the end times, the little horn person will stop the regular offering. But first the regular offering will have to begin again - which that day will set off the 2300 days.... until Jesus returns.

No, Antiochus has nothing to do with being the little horn of Daniel 7 and Daniel 8.

 

[Trivalee]

It’s not erroneous. The Hebrew literally reads 2300 “evening (ʿereḇ)” - “morning (bōqer)”. The Hebrew word for “days (yôm)” is absent from the passage.

It makes sense in the context of the ceasing of the regular burnt offering, which was conducted in the evening and morning. The ceasing of the regular burnt offering and desolation of the temple would last for 2300 sacrifices - evening and morning- until an its rededication. This would be a period of around 1150 days, which is consistent with what historically happened. This is easier to reconcile than 2300 literal days during AE4’s ceasing of the regular burnt offering.

Example- you brush your teeth in the evening and morning faithfully - but your toothbrush breaks and you miss 10 “teeth brushings”. How many days is that?

I haven't had the privilege of reading the Hebrew text, so I'll take your word for it. Thank you.

 

[claninja]

Ten days. Because of the broken tooth brush, you will miss the ten daily teeth brushings.

Now, if you broke your tooth brush, and did not brush your teeth for five days in the morning, and five days in the evening - then that would be five days.

The text does not say 1150 mornings and 1150 evenings.... does it ?

Incorrect. It’s simple math - if you brush your teeth twice daily for 5 days, you’ve brushed 10 times.

As to the text, Correct, the text doesn’t say 1150 days (yom) and 1150 nights (layelah). For example, to explicitly mention 24 hour cycles, the Hebrews used either “yom” in conjunction with a number like 7, to say 7 days, OR used the phrase days (yom) and nights (layelah), like 40 days and 40 nights.
genesis 7:4 4For in seven days (yom) I will send rain on the earth forty days (yom) and forty nights ( layelah) and every living thingc that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.”

So why didn’t the angel say 2300 “yom” or 2300 yom and 2300 layelah?

Instead the angel used ereb and boqer.

The Hebrew words “ereb” and “boqer” typically denote the transitionary periods of the day - dusk and dawn, which is when the evening and morning regular burnt offerings took place.

Where are you reading sacrifices in Daniel 8:14 ?

The word sacrifice is not found anywhere in the verse, but neither is “days”.

Since part of the context is the ceasing of the regular burnt offering (evening and morning sacrifice), and the regular burnt offering was literally ceased for 2300 sacrifices during AE4’s desecration of the temple, then it’s not unreasonable to interpret vs 14 as past fulfillment.

 

[Douggg]

It is not how lambs that are sacrificed daily, but how long the period of time is beginning with the daily sacrifice starting up again in the end times until Jesus returns and cleanses the temple mount of those thing that will have made it desolate.

The little horn person stands up against the Prince of princes Jesus. Antiochus lived 160 years before Jesus first coming, and would have never heard of Jesus.

 

[keras]

Daniel 9:27 makes it quite clear that the regular sacrifice and offerings will be stopped at the mid point of the final 7 years before Jesus Returns.
For 1260 days, confirmed by Revelation 13.

2300 days = 6.3 years, so your idea of the sacrifices beginning again then, cannot be correct, as that is within the final 7 years of the peace treaty, so the commencement of those regular offerings, must start more than 7 X 365 = 2555 days before Jesus Returns.
From Ezekiel 40 to 48, we know that a new Temple will be built in Jerusalem, soon after all the holy Land is settled by all the faithful peoples of God. Ezekiel 43:1:27

Posting charts, as above, which are so obviously wrong, is a sad reflection of your confusion and errors.

 

[claninja]

I haven't had the privilege of reading the Hebrew text, so I'll take your word for it. Thank you.

No problem. Here’s a link where you can find the hebrew text:

Daniel 8 :: King James Version (KJV)

Daniel 8 - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

www.blueletterbible.org