"desecration" of the "holy place"

grafted branch

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14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Restored, cleansed, from what ? Being made desolate. Restored by removing those things that made it desolate. And in Daniel 8:13, the little horn person. And in Revelation 13, the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast-king. And Satan when he will be cast down to earth, Ezekiel 28:16-19.
The word “cleansed” in Daniel 8:14 is <6663> to be just or righteous.

In Daniel 8:11 the place of his sanctuary is cast down. Whose sanctuary is it? Gods or Satans?
 
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DavidPT

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Of course the New Testament Temple will need to be cleansed. There is an Old Testament little horn who came in history and did what the prophecy said he was going to do.

And there is a New Testament little horn that will be just like him, but even worse than him, who will come and do whatever Daniel said the Old Testament little horn and the New Testament little horn were going to do, and fulfill whatever part of the prophecy was not fulfilled by A4E.

There are several schools of thought pertaining to 2 Thessalonians 2:4. One of them being what Preterists typically conclude, that it is involving the 2nd temple before it was destroyed. Per that scenario, the fact the 2nd temple was permantly destroyed, these is no temple in need of cleansing. Per your view of 2 Thessalonians 2:4 there would be a temple in need of cleansing, except where are the prophecies indicating this since you can't use the prophecies recorded in Daniel 8 if you are already using them to explain what A4E did before Christ was born?

Per these two scenarios, Preterists don't need any prophecies involving a cleansing of the temple per 2 Thessalonians 2:4, but that you do.
 
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DavidPT

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The word “cleansed” in Daniel 8:14 is <6663> to be just or righteous.

In Daniel 8:11 the place of his sanctuary is cast down. Whose sanctuary is it? Gods or Satans?


This assuming that this is involving the days of A4E. What then does animal sacrificing resuming have to do with anyone being once again just or righteous? One can't be just or righteous during when animal sacrificing is no longer taking place? If that is true, it should mean no one after 70 AD can be just or righteous since animal sacrificing is no longer taking place.
 
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Douggg

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It makes zero sense that the regular burnt offering would resume 2300 evenings-mornings BEFORE the sanctuary was restored. How is the daily burnt offering being resumed if the sanctuary is not restored (still desolate and being trampled)?
Because, since the vision is for the time of the end, which we are in right now, there are no daily sacrifices going on (ever since 70 AD ) . Because there is no temple on the temple mount in order to do the daily sacrifice.

A temple will have to be built - then the daily sacrifice begins again, which starts the 2300 day countdown. There is not enough information to know on what day the daily sacrifice will actually be stopped.


2300 days.jpg
 
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grafted branch

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This assuming that this is involving the days of A4E. What then does animal sacrificing resuming have to do with anyone being once again just or righteous? One can't be just or righteous during when animal sacrificing is no longer taking place? If that is true, it should mean no one after 70 AD can be just or righteous since animal sacrificing is no longer taking place.
Right, Doug has animal sacrifices taking place in a future sanctuary. I’m just wondering whether he thinks that sanctuary will be Gods sanctuary or not. I would think it’s not Gods sanctuary. I’m not sure but maybe Doug thinks that sanctuary will become Gods sanctuary after 2300 days?
 
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Douggg

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Right, Doug has animal sacrifices taking place in a future sanctuary. I’m just wondering whether he thinks that sanctuary will be Gods sanctuary or not. I would think it’s not Gods sanctuary. I’m not sure but maybe Doug thinks that sanctuary will become Gods sanctuary after 2300 days?
The temple to be built by the Jews will be intended for worship of the One True God of Israel. In that sense, it will be the temple of God.

Once Jesus returns, that temple will be replaced by another either built by Jesus or by Him instructing the Jews to, and to his specifications.
 
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grafted branch

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The temple to be built by the Jews will be intended for worship of the One True God of Israel. In that sense, it will be the temple of God.

Once Jesus returns, that temple will be replaced by another either built by Jesus or by Him instructing the Jews to, and to his specifications.
They can’t be worshipping God unless they believe in Jesus. So in that sense it’s not the temple of God.

Do you think at some point the future temple (the one that they made the animal sacrifices in) will worship Jesus as the Messiah?
 
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Douggg

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They can’t be worshipping God unless they believe in Jesus. So in that sense it’s not the temple of God.

Do you think at some point the future temple (the one that they made the animal sacrifices in) will worship Jesus as the Messiah?
When Jesus was here on earth, did Jesus call the temple "My Father's House" ?

Did the Jews believe in Jesus at that time ? So the Jews were worshiping God in a temple intended for the worship of the One True God of Israel.

A temple, that Jesus Himself called My Father's House.

---------------------------------------------------

Once Jesus returns, there will be another temple built, which the Jews will worship Jesus.

Note: the Jews (Judaism) even right now believe that the messiah will partake in the building of the next temple. Problem is that they will think the wrong person is the messiah right after Gog/Magog.
 
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DavidPT

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Do you think at some point the future temple (the one that they made the animal sacrifices in) will worship Jesus as the Messiah?

If they didn't do that during the time of the 2nd temple, they are obviously not going to do it during the time of a supposed 3rd temple in the future, either.

Here's basically what @Douggg is proposing as fact. A literal 3rd temple gets built in the future and it involves 7 years. Animal sacrificing then resumes at the beginning of this 7 years. An AOD then happens in it in the middle of this 7 years, thus causing these animal sacrifices that began in the beginning of this 7 years, to then cease yet again. As if that would be a bad thing if that happened. The unbelieving Jews then literally flee to the mountains, thus apparently leaving the temple desolate. What these unbelieving Jews that flee to the mountains do for the remainder of this 7 years, is anyone's guess.

And I almost forgot, during this same 7 years some of these same unvelieving Jews will be burning weapons the entire 7 years(Ezekiel 39:9) while these other things are also supposedly taking place at the same time. All of this sounds like something from the pages of a fairy tale that young children might believe, not something grown adults should be believing. Especially in the 21st century where animal sacrificing has been obsolete for going on 2000 years now. But somehow they are going to start up again so that 3.5 years later they can be put to an end yet again. As if that's supposed to make logical sense.
 
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grafted branch

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When Jesus was here on earth, did Jesus call the temple "My Father's House" ?

Did the Jews believe in Jesus at that time ? So the Jews were worshiping God in a temple intended for the worship of the One True God of Israel.

A temple, that Jesus Himself called My Father's House.
The bottom line is if the third temple never worships Jesus as the Messiah then the third temple never becomes just or righteous and therefore a literal future third temple can’t be in view in Daniel 8.
 
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DavidPT

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The bottom line is if the third temple never worships Jesus as the Messiah then the third temple never becomes just or righteous and therefore a literal future third temple can’t be in view in Daniel 8.

This is clearly true. Yet a 3rd temple can still be in view here, though. It all depends on how one interprets 2 Thessalonians 2:4 over all and that if that same one can see the connection between Daniel 8 and that temple and the temple meant per 2 Thessalonians 2:4. Taking the temple in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 in the literal sense is not the right approach if one is connecting that to the temple involving Daniel 8, for the reasons you mentioned.

Is one to believe, that if something is recorded in the OT, it must be taken in the literal sense every single time? I doubt that anyone believes that to be the case. So why then, what is recorded in Daniel 8 involving the little horn, this must be taken in the literal sense according to Preterists and those that agree with Preterists, and according to @Douggg and those that agree with him?
 
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DavidPT

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When Jesus was here on earth, did Jesus call the temple "My Father's House" ?

Did the Jews believe in Jesus at that time ? So the Jews were worshiping God in a temple intended for the worship of the One True God of Israel.

A temple, that Jesus Himself called My Father's House.

This is a valid point. Because, clearly, His disciples, for example, who were also Jews, were being taught in this same temple, and that they were believers. But let's not conflate this with what happened once Jesus died and rose. Things were different after that, in regards to this same temple.
 
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grafted branch

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So why then, what is recorded in Daniel 8 involving the little horn, this must be taken in the literal sense according to Preterists and those that agree with Preterists, and according to @Douggg and those that agree with him?
Well, I think AE4 is what the little horn is referring to and I do think it’s a very real possibility that AE4 was a type that pointed to a future antitype, and saying the antitype is what’s in view in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is certainly reasonable. I think where the real debate comes in is where in time does 2 Thessalonians 2:4 happen, first century or still future.

Off the top of my head, I don’t know of any examples where there is a type and more than one antitype, which would mean 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can only be referring to one event and not both a first century and future fulfillment.

I’ve thought about starting a thread on how we can determine whether something has been fulfilled or not but from what I can see there are no hard rules given in the Bible on this subject, which is why we get debates about the meaning of “soon”, “at hand” or “last hour” between preterist and futurist.
 
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Zao is life

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You can't use the prophecies recorded in Daniel 8 if you are already using them to explain what A4E did before Christ was born?
The Bible itself uses the prophecies in the above way.

"Abomination of Desolation" is a term used in the Bible to describe the occurrence of an idol being placed in the holy place of the Temple of God. You seem to think there was, or can be only one occurrence, and you seem to think this even though the Bible prophesies two occurrences - one that happened in 167 B.C, and one that was still coming when Jesus made His statement about this to His diciples in Matthew 24:15.

In Daniel, A4E fulfilled what was prophesied about the 4th beast and the little horn.
In Daniel, A4E did not fulfill all that was prophesied regarding the 4th beast and the little horn.

In the Old Testament temple, the AoD in the holy place was an idol in the holy place of the Old Testament temple, which A4E identified himself with.
In the New Testament Temple, the AoD in the holy place is the man of sin making himself the head of the church and claiming not only to be God, but to be higher than God Himself. He is the idol in the Temple.

In Daniel, A4E fulfilled what was prophesied about the 4th beast and the little horn.
In Daniel, A4E did not fulfill all that was prophesied regarding the 4th beast and the little horn.

The Bible itself uses the prophecies in the above way. I did not write the Bible.​
 
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keras

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2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1. Now, about the Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, when He is to gather us to Himself.

This is the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. As described in Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30-31 and Revelation 19:11.
Jesus will send out His angels to gather His people to Him, on earth: in Jerusalem, where He will be by then. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

2-3; I beg you, my friends, do not act hastily or be alarmed by anything that alleges that Day has arrived. Let no one deceive you in any way.
Don’t be fooled by any false teaching, Jesus is ‘with us Spiritually’, Matthew 28:20b, in this age, but His physical Return is yet to come.

3-4; That Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form, the man doomed to destruction. He will desecrate the Temple and claim to be God.

This rebellion is explained to us in Daniel 7:25, Daniel 11:36-39, Revelation 13:3-8
He is the Anti-Christ referred to in 1 John 2:18 and after 42 months, Revelation 11:3, when He Returns, Jesus will chain him up, Revelation 20:2, eventually to destroy him. Revelation 20:10

This Bible passage is very informative, as it totally disproves any pre-trib rapture. The gathering of the Lord’s people to Him, only happens at the Return.

There will be a great gathering of every true believer into all of the holy Land, soon after the Day of the Lord’s wrath, the next prophesied event. Ezekiel 34:11-31

It also proves that there will be another Temple built in Jerusalem. All as so carefully described in Ezekiel 40-44 and confirmed by Revelation 11:1. The Jews will not build the third Temple, it will be done by those people mentioned in Revelation 5:9-10 and in Revelation 7:9

They will live in peace and prosperity in the holy Land, until the Anti-Christ comes in force and defeats God’s people. Revelation 13:7 This will happen at the mid point of the final seven years, before Jesus Returns. The fulfilment of Daniel 9:27 & 11:32
Some will be taken to a place of safety, Revelation 12:6, and some will face the Great Tribulation. Daniel 11:32

Then: all who have kept their faith will then go into the Millennium with King Jesus.
 
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Douggg

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The bottom line is if the third temple never worships Jesus as the Messiah then the third temple never becomes just or righteous and therefore a literal future third temple can’t be in view in Daniel 8.
If the Jews build a temple and start the daily sacrifice again - if it is not the Temple of God, then it is the temple of "___________" - fill in the blank according to you. Who will the Jews be worshiping in that temple ?

The terms transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation - what does desolation mean in regards of those two things?
 
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Douggg

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Zao is life

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If the Jews build a temple and start the daily sacrifices again - if it is not the Temple of God, then it is the temple of "___________" - fill in the blank according to you. Who will the Jews be worshiping in that temple ?

The terms transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation - what does desolation mean in regards of those two things?
"Abomination of Desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made."
(Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)

The above prophecy in Daniel It is not associated by Daniel with the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the temple in Jerusalem.

The abominations (plural) mentioned in Daniel 9:27 ARE associated with the destruction of the city and its temple.

You are applying the phrase Abomination of Desolation to the wrong part of Daniel.

After making a truthful statement regarding the meaning of the phrase Abomination of Desolation, the Wikipedia article offers the same clumsy interpretation of the words of Jesus (recorded by the three synoptic gospel authors) that have been expressed in these boards by Preterists and all those who agree with them, including yourself, by saying,

"In the 1st century AD it was taken up by the authors of the gospels in the context of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the year 70, with Mark giving Jesus a speech concerning the Second Coming, Matthew 24:15–16 adding a reference to Daniel

and Luke 21:20–21 giving a description of the Roman armies ("But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies...");"

Then the article concludes, "In all three it is likely that the authors had in mind a future eschatological (i.e., end-time) event, and perhaps the activities of some antichrist."

No. It's likely that the readers of the gospels are confused, because they do not know the difference between an abomination of Desolation that does not result in the destruction of city and temple, and abominations (plural) that did.

.. and even when the difference is pointed out to you, most simply refuse to see it, because it means that all their eschatological models that they built on top of their misunderstanding are false.​
 
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DavidPT

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Well, I think AE4 is what the little horn is referring to and I do think it’s a very real possibility that AE4 was a type that pointed to a future antitype, and saying the antitype is what’s in view in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is certainly reasonable. I think where the real debate comes in is where in time does 2 Thessalonians 2:4 happen, first century or still future.

Off the top of my head, I don’t know of any examples where there is a type and more than one antitype, which would mean 2 Thessalonians 2:4 can only be referring to one event and not both a first century and future fulfillment.

I’ve thought about starting a thread on how we can determine whether something has been fulfilled or not but from what I can see there are no hard rules given in the Bible on this subject, which is why we get debates about the meaning of “soon”, “at hand” or “last hour” between preterist and futurist.

I grasp the logic about types and anti-types, thus don't disagree with the logic. A4E can still be the type, but according to Maccabees not the book of Daniel, though. Several things mentioned in Daniel 8 already plainly tell us what time period the little horn in question is involving, which I will list below. And IMO it is involving the same time period that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is. Regardless whether one thinks 2 Thessalonians 2:4 is involving the first century, or that it's involving the final days of this age, one thing it is not involving is the days of A4E.


for at the time of the end shall be the vision(Daniel 8:17)

(The time of the end of what? If referring to A4E, what exactly ended at the time? Obviously, the world didn't end eventually)


what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be(Daniel 8:17)

(the end of what shall be at the appointed time?)

in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up(Daniel 8:23)

compare with 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4----- except there come a falling away first--- and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Clearly, except there come a falling away first, involves transgressors. Clearly, the one meant in verse 4 matches a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, if the one meant in verse 4 is pertaining to the beast and false prophet meant in Revelation 13.


Daniel 8:25---he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes(obviously, meaning Christ after Christ has already been born, died and then rose. As if it makes sense that this can be involving A4E in that case) ; but he shall be broken without hand(sounds like that could fit Revelation 19:20, for one).

and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it(Daniel 8:27)

(As if it makes good sense, that if this is involving a literal event involving what was to happen to a literal brick and mortar temple during ancient times in BC, that a wise person such as Daniel would not even be able to comprehend the vision, and that no one at the time was able to. That is clearly laughable if the vision was pertaining to what A4E was going to do eventually. But it is hardly laughable if the vision is not even involving literal events but is involving a time period Daniel would not be familiar with, such as the 21st century. Now it makes sense why Daniel was astonished at the vision, but none understood it. But who cares about anything making sense, right? That's not the way things are supposed to work, apparently)
 
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DavidPT

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The Bible itself uses the prophecies in the above way.

"Abomination of Desolation" is a term used in the Bible to describe the occurrence of an idol being placed in the holy place of the Temple of God. You seem to think there was, or can be only one occurrence, and you seem to think this even though the Bible prophesies two occurrences - one that happened in 167 B.C, and one that was still coming when Jesus made His statement about this to His diciples in Matthew 24:15.


I do not think there can be only one occurrence when Maccabees already proves otherwise. The problem is, Maccabees is not the book of Daniel. The next problem is, the time of the end couldn't possibly be referring to the days of A4E since nothing significant ended at the time, such as the end of the world. Sure, the daily sacrifice ended, but not for forever, though. It was only for a short while. The text says that the time of the end shall be the vision. Therefore, it has to eventually involve the end of something that is never repeated again, such as the end of this age.
 
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