Denying Jesus

[Icyspark]

No, I'm not trying to find fault with the words of Jesus. I'm showing how he lived under the old Covenant and taught people who were also under the old Covenant.

So we pay attention to some of the things that Jesus said, and imitate some of the things that he did.

Realizing that not everything he said is for today is not denying Jesus, neither is not doing the same actions he did.

Bible Gateway passage: John 7:10 - New Century Version

But after Jesus’ brothers had gone to the feast, Jesus went also. But he did not let people see him.

www.biblegateway.com

Back then, most people couldn't read. Copies of the law of Moses were all handwritten, and very expensive.

But the scribes and the Pharisees had access to those expensive scrolls, and could read them. So I think Jesus is saying to listen to what they have to say, just don't do the things that they're doing.

But today is very different. Today we don't need to look for a Jewish rabbi to read us the law. So the situation is different, that's another teaching of Jesus that we're not going to follow... At least we're not going to follow it to the letter. We can follow the principle

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 119:105 - New Century Version

Your word is like a lamp for my feet and a light for my path.

www.biblegateway.com

Hi Leaf473,

Ok, I think icy what you're saying. Thanks for the explanation.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Realizing that not everything he said is for today is not denying Jesus, neither is not doing the same actions he did.

Jesus was pretty clear than man shall live by ever Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

IF the O.T. laws are against evil, this shouldn't be an issue. Evil can't be legal anyway, so the law is deployed to condemn evil. We should all cheer that fact.

 

[DamianWarS]

Hi DamianWarS,

I believe I am in agreement with what you're saying here, but I'm uncertain how you're tying this in with the topic of this thread.

In your case, are you denying Jesus by elevating Muhammed to a higher rank in your apparently Muslim belief system? How are you a follower of Isa Al Masih (i.e. Jesus Christ), if you apparently merely accept Him as a prophet, and not as your Creator God?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I'm not a Muslim

 

[DamianWarS]

Damien can correct me if I am wrong, but I believe he is saying faith and becoming a new creation is keeping God’s commandments. I believe he is saying God’s commandments are not the Ten Commandments despite God claiming them as His commandments written by Him personally Exo 20:6 Mat 15:3–14

I recognize the law extends beyond the 10 commandments yet can all be called God's commandments and I'm careful to not rank commandments unless explicit in the text, also aware of limits of place and time.

God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham for him and his descendants, with circumcision in the flesh as its sign. Genesis 17 states that this is a non-negotiable action. These are included in the commandments of God, and they are no less perfect or Holy than the Ten Commandments. Yet we value circumcision differently in the new covenant than Abraham was told to value them.

Whatever language you want to describe this process that circumcision went through from old to new, is the same logic I apply to all law (which includes the 10 commandments). Since scripture reveals to us that how we consider one law affects all laws, I do the same when considering their new covenant values.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I recognize the law extends beyond the 10 commandments yet can all be called God's commandments and I'm careful to not rank commandments unless explicit in the text, also aware of limits of place and time.

God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham for him and his descendants, with circumcision in the flesh as its sign. Genesis 17 states that this is a non-negotiable action. These are included in the commandments of God, and they are no less perfect or Holy than the Ten Commandments. Yet we value circumcision differently in the new covenant than Abraham was told to value them.

Whatever language you want to describe this process that circumcision went through from old to new, is the same logic I apply to all law (which includes the 10 commandments). Since scripture reveals to us that how we consider one law affects all laws, I do the same when considering their new covenant values.

Not all laws are called commandments Neh 9:13 and God only numbered one set of laws placed aside from all others. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 All the other laws were set outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-26 for breaking God's Ten Commandments, so this argument all commandments are equal is really with the Text. There are sub laws to support the Ten Commandments but until one understands the full extent of God's perfect law written personally by God, most of the scriptures on the law will be out of context.

Spiritual circumcision is an eternal covenant which is symbolic that has to do with cutting off sin and being one with Christ Col 2:11 and sin is breaking God's law any one of the Ten Commandments 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12, physical circumcision is not, as it was discussed to death in the scriptures. God's Ten Commandments are an eternal covenant Psa 89:34 Mat 5:19 despite peoples objection to one of His commandments and its what man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30, Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15, hence why the Ten Commandments are under God's mercy seat, where justice and mercy will come together one day soon.

I don't think we will come to an agreement on this and that's okay. If you want to treat the Sabbath commandment differently than the other 9 commandments that's a choice. God never did and its one of the more important commandments because it points to our Creator and contains His seal and sanctification Exo 20:11 Eze 20:20 Eze 20:12 made for us Mark 2:27 how we join ourselves to Him, to serve Him Isa 56:1-6 and without His power, we could not keep any law.

 

[Leaf473]

Jesus was pretty clear than man shall live by ever Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

We live by every word of God, but that isn't the same as following every instruction that God gave at any time.

It's kind of like your phone or computer, you want to use the latest release. An old release may no longer be supported by the developer

Bible Gateway passage: Luke 22:20 - New Century Version

In the same way, after supper, Jesus took the cup and said, “This cup is the new agreement that God makes with his people. This new agreement begins with my blood which is poured out for you.

www.biblegateway.com

We want to agree to the new terms and conditions

IF the O.T. laws are against evil, this shouldn't be an issue. Evil can't be legal anyway, so the law is deployed to condemn evil. We should all cheer that fact.

The law is definitely good if we use it lawfully

 

[Leaf473]

I recognize the law extends beyond the 10 commandments yet can all be called God's commandments and I'm careful to not rank commandments unless explicit in the text, also aware of limits of place and time.

God made an everlasting covenant with Abraham for him and his descendants, with circumcision in the flesh as its sign. Genesis 17 states that this is a non-negotiable action. These are included in the commandments of God, and they are no less perfect or Holy than the Ten Commandments. Yet we value circumcision differently in the new covenant than Abraham was told to value them.

Whatever language you want to describe this process that circumcision went through from old to new, is the same logic I apply to all law (which includes the 10 commandments).

Since scripture reveals to us that how we consider one law affects all laws, I do the same when considering their new covenant values.

Yes, I believe that goes along with the principle given here

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 25:13-14 - New Century Version

Don’t carry two sets of weights with you, one heavy and one light. Don’t have two different sets of measures in your house, one large and one small.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

Not all laws are called commandments Neh 9:13 and God only numbered one set of laws placed aside from all others. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 All the other laws were set outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-26 for breaking God's Ten Commandments, so this argument all commandments are equal is really with the Text.

There are sub laws to support the Ten Commandments but until one understands the full extent of God's perfect law written personally by God, most of the scriptures on the law will be out of context.

Is this a sub law that supports the Ten Commandments?

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 25:3-4 - New Century Version

You may plant seed in your field for six years, and you may trim your vineyards for six years and bring in their fruits. But during the seventh year, you must let the land rest. This will be a special time to honor the LORD. You must not plant seed in your field or trim your vineyards.

www.biblegateway.com

Spiritual circumcision is an eternal covenant which is symbolic that has to do with cutting off sin and being one with Christ Col 2:11 and sin is breaking God's law any one of the Ten Commandments 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12, physical circumcision is not, as it was discussed to death in the scriptures. God's Ten Commandments are an eternal covenant Psa 89:34 Mat 5:19 despite peoples objection to one of His commandments and its what man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30, Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15, hence why the Ten Commandments are under God's mercy seat, where justice and mercy will come together one day soon.

I don't think we will come to an agreement on this and that's okay. If you want to treat the Sabbath commandment differently than the other 9 commandments that's a choice. God never did and its one of the more important commandments because it points to our Creator and contains His seal and sanctification Exo 20:11 Eze 20:20 Eze 20:12 made for us Mark 2:27 how we join ourselves to Him, to serve Him Isa 56:1-6 and without His power, we could not keep any law.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

We live by every word of God, but that isn't the same as following every instruction that God gave at any time.

That doesn't happen ^. The evil present in no one follows the law

The law is definitely good if we use it lawfully

I'm good with two aspects of the laws of the O.T. Both against evil/the old blinded carnal nature/the tempter

And the fulfillment via Romans 13:8-10, except for this ^^^

Paul isolated this matter quite precisely in a single scripture: Romans 7:21

Love however always being transcendent, above ALL things, or below, if we prefer

 

[DamianWarS]

Not all laws are called commandments Neh 9:13 and God only numbered one set of laws placed aside from all others. Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 All the other laws were set outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-26 for breaking God's Ten Commandments, so this argument all commandments are equal is really with the Text. There are sub laws to support the Ten Commandments but until one understands the full extent of God's perfect law written personally by God, most of the scriptures on the law will be out of context.

Not all laws are declared the signs of an everlasting covenant. Circumcision and Sabbath are two that are. I'm not sure what order you're ranking things, but wouldn't you agree the text shows high value to these particular laws in question?

Spiritual circumcision is an eternal covenant which is symbolic that has to do with cutting off sin and being one with Christ Col 2:11 and sin is breaking God's law any one of the Ten Commandments 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:10-12, physical circumcision is not, as it was discussed to death in the scriptures. God's Ten Commandments are an eternal covenant Psa 89:34 Mat 5:19 despite peoples objection to one of His commandments and its what man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Mat 5:19-30, Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15, hence why the Ten Commandments are under God's mercy seat, where justice and mercy will come together one day soon.

You should probably read Gen 17. It is very clear that physical circumcision is required. Sure spiritual circumcision is the meaning and although not unpacked in Gen 17 you could say is implicit. But what is unpacked is the cutting of the flesh is required. It is a forever covenant. The same word used to describe Sabbath as a sign in its forever covenant.

I don't think we will come to an agreement on this and that's okay. If you want to treat the Sabbath commandment differently than the other 9 commandments that's a choice. God never did and its one of the more important commandments because it points to our Creator and contains His seal and sanctification Exo 20:11 Eze 20:20 Eze 20:12 made for us Mark 2:27 how we join ourselves to Him, to serve Him Isa 56:1-6 and without His power, we could not keep any law.

I agree that the concept of Sabbath is one of the most important concepts in the bible and I highly value it. It is the most frequent topic I study and not just to converse here, but because to me it is worthy of attention. My mind is frequently on the subject and I deeply love Sabbath, from each aspect of scripture that teaches it. I assure you I do not take the subject lightly nor it's practice even if we defend it differently. As it is with creation, sabbath is the goal, and so it is with the new creation.

 

[Leaf473]

That doesn't happen ^.

Which part doesn't happen?

The evil present in no one follows the law



I'm good with two aspects of the laws of the O.T. Both against evil/the old blinded carnal nature/the tempter

And the fulfillment via Romans 13:8-10, except for this ^^^

Paul isolated this matter quite precisely in a single scripture: Romans 7:21

Love however always being transcendent, above ALL things, or below, if we prefer

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Which part doesn't happen?

Mark 7:21-23 is real for everyone

Therefore no one is ever legally obedient

 

[Leaf473]

Mark 7:21-23 is real for everyone

Therefore no one is ever legally obedient

I hear what you're saying

This also came to me

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 17:3 - Tree of Life Version

You have examined my heart. You searched me at night. Though You test me, You find nothing. I resolved that my mouth will not sin.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Icyspark]

I'm not a Muslim

Hi DamianWarS,

Hmm. Then why are you using Muslim terminology for identifying Jesus?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[DamianWarS]

Hi DamianWarS,

Hmm. Then why are you using Muslim terminology for identifying Jesus?

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

I speak another language in that language Isa Almaish is the identity of Christ that I have (which is a Christian identity) the term means Jesus the Messiah/Christ or for Messianic "Yeshua HaMashiach" and appears in my bible in Mat 1:1, I would use the same to communicate to others in this language what I believe as well as use it among other Christians plus personally in prayer/study. There is no compromise with this term regardless of how Islam or any other group uses it.

 

[HIM]

That doesn't happen ^. The evil present in no one follows the law

You are mistaken. Paul said he was delivered from the Law of sin through the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

You are mistaken. Paul said he was delivered from the Law of sin through the Law of the Spirit of the Life in Christ Jesus.

Uh, no. That never happened.

Paul was very explicit that his flesh and the evil therein still served the law of sin, Romans 7, particularly vs. 21 & 25

Paul told the truth. God doesn't overlook and excuse the evil in anyone and we all have the infection, even after salvation

What the majority totally fail to bring to the table is that we all engage the tempter, our adversary, the devil in these matters. So if you want to focus on disobedience, look to the perp and get that perp on the table for viewing

Sin is never a matter of only the person. We all bear a piece of the tempter in our own flesh

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus was pretty clear than man shall live by ever Word of God. Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4, Deut. 8:3

IF the O.T. laws are against evil, this shouldn't be an issue. Evil can't be legal anyway, so the law is deployed to condemn evil. We should all cheer that fact.

Failing to keep the sabbath and dietary laws are only evil if God hasn’t told us that we don’t need to keep them. Paul said that we don’t have to keep them anymore, and the SDA says that’s not what he meant. So the argument comes down to did Paul mean what he wrote or not?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The argument actually is do we believe God or not. God gave the Ten Commandments written by His own finger Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16 on His Authority, that not even Paul has authority to countermand a commandment of God and change one jot or tittle.

Paul's writings came with a stern warning 2 Peter 3:16 for good reason.

People claim the weekly Sabbath commandment that is holy and blessed by God ended at the Cross but that's not what Col 2:14KJV and Col 2:17 says which gives the context to Col 2:16 that no one ever quotes for some strange reason.

People claim the weekly Sabbath commandment ended at the Cross, but not for God's faithful Luke 23:56. If Jesus was going to end a commandment He would have said something to someone and an argument from silence is never a good idea especially when we are ignoring what Jesus did say, the Sabbath is made for man Mark 2:27 because man can't bless or sanctify themselves Isa 56:1-6 Eze 20:12 we need God..

Jesus in His own Words said the Sabbath would be kept by His faithful decades after the cross Mat 24:20 and for eternity Isa 66:23 and why the apostles also kept every Sabbath decades after the cross, because a servant is never greater than their master.

So do we believe a thus saith the Lord or Paul words who we are told are often twisted out of context

Even the apostles taught we ought to obey God over man. Acts 5:29

 

[HIM]

Uh, no. That never happened.

Paul was very explicit that his flesh and the evil therein still served the law of sin, Romans 7, particularly vs. 21 & 25

Paul told the truth. God doesn't overlook and excuse the evil in anyone and we all have the infection, even after salvation

What the majority totally fail to bring to the table is that we all engage the tempter, our adversary, the devil in these matters. So if you want to focus on disobedience, look to the perp and get that perp on the table for viewing

Sin is never a matter of only the person. We all bear a piece of the tempter in our own flesh

And he is very clear in 8:2-4 that he been set free-from that condition