Denying Jesus

[HIM]

I don’t recall having discussions with this person before so I can’t really determine if he just isn’t capable of comprehending scripture or if he’s one of those who just refuses to reverse his position when he’s been proven wrong. I’d have to have more of a history of discussions to make that assessment.

The comment was meant to be said in general. But it applies. Have at it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The comment was meant to be said in general. But it applies. Have at it.

Yeah it’s extremely rare that anyone reverses their initial position here on CF. People seem more receptive in person than here on CF for some reason.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

That happens probably 80 percent of the time

People would do their positions well to try to understand that 2 facts of scripture can both be true, and on the surface, seem to be in direct contradiction. Fairly common with scripture, but seldom understood unfortunately

 

[HIM]

People would do their positions well to try to understand that 2 facts of scripture can both be true, and on the surface, seem to be in direct contradiction. Fairly common with scripture, but seldom understood unfortunately

Nonsense

 

[Jan001]

Nonsense

This was your reply regarding BelieveItOarKnot's "People would do their positions well to try to understand that 2 facts of scripture can both be true, and on the surface, seem to be in direct contradiction."

I have some examples to support BelieveItOarKnot's post:

Example:
Matthew 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Matthew 19:19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Example:
Mark 9:40 For he who is not against us is on our side.

Matthew 12:30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Example:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—

1 Timothy 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This was your reply regarding BelieveItOarKnot's "People would do their positions well to try to understand that 2 facts of scripture can both be true, and on the surface, seem to be in direct contradiction."

I have some examples to support BelieveItOarKnot's post:

Example:
Matthew 23:9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.

Matthew 19:19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Example:
Mark 9:40 For he who is not against us is on our side.

Matthew 12:30 Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Example:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—

1 Timothy 4:16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and your hearers.

You’re not understanding the context in which he made that statement. His argument is that the three groups that Jesus described in Matthew 13:18-23 is actually describing everyone. In particular that verse 19 is describing everyone which would mean that everyone who hears the gospel believes for a while then falls away to unbelief. He insists that all scripture pertains to all people so Matthew 13:19 is describing all people which I disagree with because if that were true then verse 23 would describe all people and everyone would believe the gospel and be saved. Furthermore Matthew 25:31-42 doesn’t describe all people because everyone isn’t both a sheep and a goat. It basically comes down to he made an erroneous statement and he is unwilling to reverse his position on it.

 

[Jan001]

You’re not understanding the context in which he made that statement. His argument is that the three groups that Jesus described in Matthew 13:18-23 is actually describing everyone. In particular that verse 19 is describing everyone which would mean that everyone who hears the gospel believes for a while then falls away to unbelief. He insists that all scripture pertains to all people so Matthew 13:19 is describing all people which I disagree with because if that were true then verse 23 would describe all people and everyone would believe the gospel and be saved. Furthermore Matthew 25:31-42 doesn’t describe all people because everyone isn’t both a sheep and a goat. It basically comes down to he made an erroneous statement and he is unwilling to reverse his position on it.

Jesus is describing different types of believers. Each seed is an individual person.

Matthew 131-9 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 Such great crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat there, while the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “Listen! A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 Let anyone with ears listen!”

Matthew 25:31-46 separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep are the people (seeds) who persevered until death, doing the good works (brought forth the multiples of grain) that God the Father had planned beforehand for them to do. Ephesians 2:10 The goats are the people (seeds) who did not persevere until death, doing the good works that God the Father had planned beforehand for them to do. Matthew 7:21

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus is describing different types of believers. Each seed is an individual person.

Matthew 131-9 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 Such great crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat there, while the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “Listen! A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell on the path, and the birds came and ate them up. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and they sprang up quickly, since they had no depth of soil. 6 But when the sun rose, they were scorched; and since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 Let anyone with ears listen!”

Matthew 25:31-46 separates the sheep from the goats. The sheep are the people (seeds) who persevered until death, doing the good works (brought forth the multiples of grain) that God the Father had planned beforehand for them to do. Ephesians 2:10 The goats are the people (seeds) who did not persevere until death, doing the good works that God the Father had planned beforehand for them to do. Matthew 7:21

Yes I absolutely agree and that is the point that I was making. The other guy I was replying to says that everyone are the seeds that fell along the road. My point was that some people actually do hear the gospel, believe it, and don’t fall away like the seeds that fell on fertile soil. He disagrees.

 

[FredVB]

There is the fruit of the Spirit, that believers might grow in, which would not grow in those who are not believers. Godliness will include those, and the fruit of the Spirit showing is not contrary to commandments from God. Those people, in Christ, show their distinction with this.

None of this will lead to denying Jesus. To deny him is a serious issue, typifying what those who are not real believers might ultimately do. We should still examine ourselves, to go the right way, prayer will help maintain the relationship.

The ground of good soil or hard soil is referring to hearts of individuals to whom the gospel of Jesus is brought, according to how it was explained. People respond differently because of how their heart is. Some actually seem to respond but they have no depth.

 

[FredVB]

In terms of the commandments, that some use a passage saying that penalties are removed from us who come to Christ to enforce the conclusion that the law from God is ended, it would dismiss that the Sabbath is made for man, which Jesus the Christ said, that it would be seen to be universal, that all could come to Christ, with the day of rest continuing for their benefit.

 

[FredVB]

A principle many among modern believers do not want to consider is that what God reveals earliest is what God really wants. When there is something else that suggests God wants something for us conflicting with what was first shown, it is not that what was first was wrong but there is an adjustment because of the way we are, such as being with a hardened heart, or more plainly stubborn. God does not want any to just perish, repentance to come to essential faith is important, but God sees there are concessions needed that this will be more widespread, though not of the perfect way God wants. Growth spiritually should draw us closer to that, though, there is a long way to go, many among us are missing things we should yet learn.

 

[FredVB]

All are not being obedient to God nor conforming to the design from God. God will at times bring awareness to us of things God meant for us and what expectations there are with those, when we are open enough to really receive it from God. This would be what any come to with being really open to it. I will see what God's will is and change to that, but I see few doing that too.

 

[bbbbbbb]

All are not being obedient to God nor conforming to the design from God. God will at times bring awareness to us of things God meant for us and what expectations there are with those, when we are open enough to really receive it from God. This would be what any come to with being really open to it. I will see what God's will is and change to that, but I see few doing that too.

My observation is that the majority of professing Christians actually believe that they are obedient to God. It is easy for those outside to point out areas of disobedience, but most of us, and I include myself, are really quite blind to these areas. The heart is, indeed, deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

 

[FredVB]

My observation is that the majority of professing Christians actually believe that they are obedient to God. It is easy for those outside to point out areas of disobedience, but most of us, and I include myself, are really quite blind to these areas. The heart is, indeed, deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

People really do fool themselves, pretty much all the time. There is a need for honest evaluation when one's personal issues come to light, each in its time. I am not without flaws. But things I saw could be changed for betterment, which were possible to me, I worked on doing, and so far there are many such changes. So I speak for doing what can be done, where it is possible. Where we need help, we should ask for that. But, again, this takes honest evaluation, this seems neglected in many cases.

 

[bbbbbbb]

People really do fool themselves, pretty much all the time. There is a need for honest evaluation when one's personal issues come to light, each in its time. I am not without flaws. But things I saw could be changed for betterment, which were possible to me, I worked on doing, and so far there are many such changes. So I speak for doing what can be done, where it is possible. Where we need help, we should ask for that. But, again, this takes honest evaluation, this seems neglected in many cases.

Quite true. Our fallen nature, coupled with the enemy's schemes could lead one to despair, as Paul expressed it in Romans 7.

 

[FredVB]

It could lead to despair, if we are not aware of the hope we have with God's power with God caring and working for us. Still hope would be misplaced if we do not care for seeking and doing God's will, where it is possible for us, in Christ.