Denied on basis of being a CredoBaptist

[JasonLibertad]

Sorry for lighting a fire with my comments and disappearing, I have been working some long days at work. I only have a few minutes to post this so can't get in too much depth.

I was born to Catholic parent's and was baptized into the Catholic church as an infant. When I was five years old my parent's converted to Christianity. We attended a Spanish/English Assemblies of God Church and were very involved for the years we fellowshiped there. Dad played drums for the worship band, my sister and I were in all the play's and the choir. I was in the Royal Rangers program. We were there to see the church grow to possibly the largest Spanish/English Assemblies of God church in Southern California.

When I was about 12 years old my Father was introduced to Reformed Theology. The 5 points and Doctrines of Grace from a co-worker. He never talked to me or my sister about it. But I know now that he had told my Mother that he did not feel comfortable going to church there anymore because he did not agree with certain things.

All of a sudden we stopped going to the Assemblies of God church and started attending a small Spanish Baptist church that my Dad's friend was the pastor of. I was baptized at this church at age 14. I can't say that this church was one that held to the Doctrines of grace because I was so young and still drinking the milk of the word and whatever was spoon fed by the pastor but it was very different than the Assemblies of God church. The main difference I saw was that no one was speaking in tongues...

After a few of years of commuting an hour away to go to church my parents decided to start going to a local Calvary Chapel. I have to say those were MY funnest years at church as a kid. It was a big Christian Party.......but no meat was served. Anytime I would read my Bible and come across scripture that didn't jive with what was being taught I would ask questions and I would get more doubt by the answers given. All the while I was trying so hard to be a good Christian and not sin because I didn't want to lose my salvation or backslide (favorite term in Calvary circles), but no matter what I wanted in my soul my young flesh would still sin.

I continued going to Calvary Chapel until I was about 26 years old at which time I was fed up with the inconsistencies between the Bible and what was being preached, it did not sit well with my soul. I decided to embark on a quest to find a good bible preaching church. I started off by going back to my roots as a child and visited another assemblies of God church in my area. No sound biblical preaching there. I visited various other churches and was not fed meat anywhere. Frustrated with all of this one day I did a search on Google for a denomination test. I found one and my results came back "Reformed Baptist". I thought.....what is a Reformed Baptist??? I found one near my house and decided to visit. Sure enough it sat well with my soul.

With that said are there people in Arminian churches that are saved? Yes
If people in those churches continue to hold to those Arminian views instead of searching the scriptures for the truth are they saved? I don't think so because their foundation is built on sand and the Lord in that day may very well say...."Depart from me, I never knew you"


But but but .......I cast out demons and healed the sick and so on and so on. "Depart from me"




I really had to rush this, so I hope I was clear in my writing.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

The Jesus of will worshipers and the Jesus of the Bible are different. They have nothing in common but the name. The gospel is not just the facts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. The gospel is the gospel according to the scriptures.

Will worshipers, ultimately, trust in their decision. They say they do not, but a few probing questions reveal what they are.

Will worship.

Forgive me, but I cannot resist..

what does that make you? A fatalism worshiper? A hard determinism worshiper? A sovereignty worshiper? I think these are fair questions, considering you have said you are not Reformed, and not a Calvinist. The Jesus of fatalism and the Jesus of the Bible are different. They have nothing in common but name.

Fatalists ultimately trust in fatalism. They say they do not, but a few probing questions reveal what they are.

Fatalism worship.

 

[the particular baptist]

Forgive me, but I cannot resist..

what does that make you? A fatalism worshiper? A hard determinism worshiper? A sovereignty worshiper? I think these are fair questions, considering you have said you are not Reformed, and not a Calvinist. The Jesus of fatalism and the Jesus of the Bible are different. They have nothing in common but name.

Fatalists ultimately trust in fatalism. They say they do not, but a few probing questions reveal what they are.

Fatalism worship.

I'm Baptist. The kind of Baptist during the "reformation" hunted down like a dog by the vast majority of Reformers and imprisoned, and at times killed, for the crime of One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Not many faiths, many denominations, many understandings of God.

Fatalism - Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine emphasizing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate.

Fate is what humanists and deists believe in Mr "Apologetic Warroior", im not either. Im a bible believing Baptist.

I dont mind being called theological swear words by such as you. My forefathers endured much worse at the hands of the Reformed, who am I to not endure mere names. To not do so would make me a craven son of heroic fathers.


Have a great day.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I'm Baptist. The kind of Baptist during the "reformation" hunted down like a dog by the vast majority of Reformers and imprisoned, and at times killed, for the crime of One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Not many faiths, many denominations, many understandings of God.

Sorry to burst your persecution complex bubble, but I'm the kind of Reformer that only hunts wildlife...

Fatalism - Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine emphasizing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate.

Yes I know, but I think you missed the point. Arminians are no more will worshipers than you are a fatalism worshiper. I believe the biblical view of sovereignty and human responsibility is best summed up by compatibilism.

Fate is what humanists and deists believe in Mr "Apologetic Warroior", im not either. Im a bible believing Baptist.

I know, but I was trying to help you see something...

I dont mind being called theological swear words by such as you. My forefathers endured much worse at the hands of the Reformed, who am I to not endure mere names. To not do so would make me a craven son of heroic fathers.

I am sorry you took what I said to heart. We should be more careful in throwing out "theological swear words" as you call them. I am proud of my Christian heritage too, even if we don't see eye to eye concerning it. God bless you.

 

[the particular baptist]

Sorry to burst your persecution complex bubble, but I'm the kind of Reformer that only hunts wildlife

As distasteful as it may seem to you and us today, it is part of the reformation history. And it is very likely had you lived 400-500 years ago, you would have shared the Reformers sentiments concerning people like me, if you dont today.

How does it go ? "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana - Reason in Common Sense, The Life of Reason~

​

I believe the biblical view of sovereignty and human responsibility is best summed up by compatibilism.

I have a higher view of God's sovereignty. Man is responsible for his sins, thats it. What makes a sinner saved, differ from a sinner, is God's apprehending, arresting grace, and after that it is He Who works in His people both to will and to do His pleasure. If God can and does prevent people from believing the free grace gospel, the gospel according to the scriptures 1 Corinthians 15:3, then there is no such thing as real free will. Sinners are free to do only that which is natural to them, sin.


If the Holy Ghost compares mankind as clay and God the Potter, well, who am i to take offense. Only will worshipers take offense because their minds are still at enmity with God. I know you disagree, but, i am happy and content to agree to disagree on this issue with people who profess the same free grace gospel i do.

I know, but I was trying to help you see something...

Internet is difficult to communicate humor or irony.

I am sorry you took what I said to heart. We should be more careful in throwing out "theological swear words" as you call them. I am proud of my Christian heritage too, even if we don't see eye to eye concerning it. God bless you.

You may consider "will worshiper" a theological swear word. But i defined it earlier. You may disagree with the word, but according to the definition i gave it, it suits proponents of free will to a tee.

God richly bless you and yours as well.

 

[heymikey80]

As distasteful as it may seem to you and us today, it is part of the reformation history. And it is very likely had you lived 400-500 years ago, you would have shared the Reformers sentiments concerning people like me, if you dont today.

How does it go ? "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it." ~George Santayana - Reason in Common Sense, The Life of Reason~

Actually, I've read that there's a similar wording in Herodotus.

On the other hand, when an entire church holds that the basis for membership in Christ's church is a specific theology of baptism -- especially when that theology is said not to constitute the person's salvation status before Christ -- I have to wonder whether it's history of the now that needs to be avoided.

None of us can avoid being products of our culture. But the question is always whether we will reform toward Christ's will for us, His people -- or "go with the flow."

I've been hit with this "baptism a certain way is required" far more often from Baptist churches than from Presbyterian.

 

[AndOne]

I'm Baptist. The kind of Baptist during the "reformation" hunted down like a dog by the vast majority of Reformers and imprisoned, and at times killed, for the crime of One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism. Not many faiths, many denominations, many understandings of God.

Last I checked - the anabaptists do have their own forums here at CF...

 

[the particular baptist]

Last I checked - the anabaptists do have their own forums here at CF...

Thanks BB. Anabaptists today are will worshipers and work religionists.

The anabaptists that old school baptists derived from had the same thing in common as todays old school baptists have. One Lord One Faith One Baptism. They preached free grace and believers baptism. For that they were hunted down, imprisoned, and killed.

Last i checked, there are plenty of will worshiping forums here as well. Good for those sympathetic to their faith and their jesus to visit with them every now and then, seeing how they have the same faith and are considered brothers.

 

[AndOne]

.

Last i checked, there are plenty of will worshiping forums here as well. Good for those sympathetic to their faith and their jesus to visit with them every now and then, seeing how they have the same faith and are considered brothers.

I don't consider them "will worshipping" forums - but the forums in which many arminians participate in are ones that I too spend a lot of time in. I not only debate with them - but fellowship with some as well. They do have the same faith and are brothers and sisters. You need to read through Romans 14 and cool down brother...

 

[the particular baptist]

I don't consider them "will worshipping" forums - but the forums in which many arminians participate in are ones that I too spend a lot of time in. I not only debate with them - but fellowship with some as well. They do have the same faith and are brothers and sisters. You need to read through Romans 14 and cool down brother...

I'm familiar with Romans 14, thank you.

I can live with your conviction that adherents and worshipers of free will are your brothers and have the same faith you do.

I on the other hand do not consider them of the same faith and brothers. There is another gospel, another Jesus, and another Holy Spirit as Paul wrote the II Corinthians 11:4. They closely resemble the authentic, that is certain.

What i would appreciate from you is to be as tolerant of me, as i am of you. The famous accusation against liberals is that theyre tolerant with everyone except the intolerant. Let that not be said of you.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

PB,

You make VERY strong statements and seem to dislike responses in kind.

Now, on to what I wish to say. Above I quoted from Paul's letter to the Church at Rome to show a reason why I believe your view is wrong, and unbiblical. Your response was merely to say that you disagree with the way I presented what Paul says (and mentioned that there are others who agree with you) and then say we just need to agree to disagree -- but then you go on in the same mantra in post after post.

Since this is a discussion forum, and yours is a VERY minority view among Christians who adhere to the Doctrines of Grace, I would like for you to show me how I am in error and I will be happy to reply in kind.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[JustAsIam77]

Restrictive is an understatement. I can't remain in good standing on the puritan board to save my life. I'm simply not "reformed" enough for them.

I'm never going back.

To the OP, you won't find a good calvinist only discussion board. They always get wrapped up in confessionalism. There was an interesting one once called grace but it didn't survive. This forum, CARM, and the Baptist Board are really all there are unless you want to get rejected and ridiculed.

No offense to anyone here because we have a good crowd, but there are certain types of calvinists that are basically the meanest people on the internet. They don't think that anyone but "law abiding" calvinists are going to heaven and they are very divisive. Stay away from a bunch like that because it doesn't reflect the fruits of the Spirit.

I visit many discussion forums and couldn't agree more.

Even more disturbing is the misinformation that is pervasive on some Christian discussion boards whos members don't have the slightest knowledge of the doctrines of grace or Calvinism and perpetuate wrong hermeneutics regarding Calvinism, IOW they rail against theology they don't have a clear understanding of, false information is posted, one I used to frequent has devolved into Calvinism discussions being relegated to the apostasy area of the forum.

 

[AndOne]

What i would appreciate from you is to be as tolerant of me, as i am of you. The famous accusation against liberals is that theyre tolerant with everyone except the intolerant. Let that not be said of you.

Brother - I am tolerant of you - I accept your faith as genuine and gladly embrace you as a fellow Christian - despite our disagreement on this issue. Does that seem intolerant to you?

My concern is this quickness to judge anyone who does not accept the doctrines of grace - or the monergistic work of God in salvation as anethema. Or to label them as "will-worshipers." It makes no sense to me. There are a lot of Christians out there who have no idea what the doctrines of grace are or the issues regarding the bondage of the will. All they know is that they love Jesus and they are trusting in Him alone for salvation.

ALL Christians have made a decision to follow Christ. The only difference between us and the arminian is that we know that such a decision would not be possible without God's sovereign election. I believe that in and of itself is because of God's grace - His grace to allow us to understand His word a little better. We need to take that knowledge of scripture and gently educate/debate with our brothers who don't have it. But I think its a mistake to pound people over the head with it - like the Pharisees did in Jesus time.

I hope you take up the challenge in post #111. I am anxious to see your response.

 

[the particular baptist]

There are a lot of Christians out there who have no idea what the doctrines of grace are or the issues regarding the bondage of the will. All they know is that they love Jesus and they are trusting in Him alone for salvation.

I dont doubt the sincerety of professing christians that trust Christ because of an experiential conversion had taken place. Meaning they can describe a work of God in their lives that conquered them, and they trust in Christ alone. Such a testimony bears witness of a work of grace. No need to be able to articulate the grace doctrines, i never said that, but their regeneration experience articulates the grace doctrines.

Intellectual ascent, mental knowledge of the facts of part of the gospel, absent of a life altering work of grace testimony does not make a Christian.

ALL Christians have made a decision to follow Christ.

Right. Show me how Lazarus made a decision to be raised from the dead. Show me how Paul made a decision to follow Christ. Lydia, any of the Lord's Apostles, in fact any saint in the OT or NT. Here we part ways. I believe a born again experience is a born again experience. It is a catastrophic, fantastic, real, experiential, experience. Such a person knows he had nothing to do with it. Such a person knows he did not seek God but God sought him. Such a person knows the wretchedness of his heart, experientially, because the Holy Spirit made him realize his lost condition. This sinner saved is taught all this of God, not books. The old school baptists knew and taught this.

Today its called being intolerant and a psychopath and a lunatic. No sweat to me, ill take the names.

Have a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow all.

 

[the particular baptist]

Since this is a discussion forum, and yours is a VERY minority view among Christians who adhere to the Doctrines of Grace, I would like for you to show me how I am in error and I will be happy to reply in kind.

Alright bro, ill take a stab at it. I warn you brothers in advance im not a very succinct communicator.

Have a blessed time worshiping the Triune God this Lord's Day.

 

[the particular baptist]

Originally Posted by Cajun Huguenot

Since this is a discussion forum, and yours is a VERY minority view among Christians who adhere to the Doctrines of Grace, I would like for you to show me how I am in error and I will be happy to reply in kind.
​

Do i have to expound from the Romans passage alone or can i make use of other scriptures ?

I'll think through it this week and hopefully post something on it by next weekend.

 

[the particular baptist]

Since this is a discussion forum, and yours is a VERY minority view among Christians who adhere to the Doctrines of Grace

Well, strict baptists are the very tiny minority of DoG professors, that arent paedo's (you like that ? I used paedo instead of baby sprinkler ). Modern day Baptists that call themselves reformed and SBC Founders Baptists adhere to Fullerite DoG theology, and its called New Divinity, and theyre new school baptists, which is why BB can call a proponent of free will brother. Andrew Fuller plunged the Particular Baptist denomination into arminianism. Those who called him out and broke fellowship with him called themselves strict baptists.

 

[JasonLibertad]

I dont doubt the sincerety of professing christians that trust Christ because of an experiential conversion had taken place. Meaning they can describe a work of God in their lives that conquered them, and they trust in Christ alone. Such a testimony bears witness of a work of grace. No need to be able to articulate the grace doctrines, i never said that, but their regeneration experience articulates the grace doctrines.

Intellectual ascent, mental knowledge of the facts of part of the gospel, absent of a life altering work of grace testimony does not make a Christian.



Right. Show me how Lazarus made a decision to be raised from the dead. Show me how Paul made a decision to follow Christ. Lydia, any of the Lord's Apostles, in fact any saint in the OT or NT. Here we part ways. I believe a born again experience is a born again experience. It is a catastrophic, fantastic, real, experiential, experience. Such a person knows he had nothing to do with it. Such a person knows he did not seek God but God sought him. Such a person knows the wretchedness of his heart, experientially, because the Holy Spirit made him realize his lost condition. This sinner saved is taught all this of God, not books. The old school baptists knew and taught this.

Today its called being intolerant and a psychopath and a lunatic. No sweat to me, ill take the names.

Have a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow all.

Perfectly stated brother!

I don't think any Biblical Christian can argue with that.

 

[AndOne]

I

Right. Show me how Lazarus made a decision to be raised from the dead. Show me how Paul made a decision to follow Christ. Lydia, any of the Lord's Apostles, in fact any saint in the OT or NT. Here we part ways. I believe a born again experience is a born again experience. It is a catastrophic, fantastic, real, experiential, experience. Such a person knows he had nothing to do with it. Such a person knows he did not seek God but God sought him. Such a person knows the wretchedness of his heart, experientially, because the Holy Spirit made him realize his lost condition. This sinner saved is taught all this of God, not books. The old school baptists knew and taught this.

Today its called being intolerant and a psychopath and a lunatic. No sweat to me, ill take the names.

Have a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow all.

I'm gonna go out a limb here and say that I'm fairly confident that the experiences you are speaking of here resulted in the folks "deciding" for Christ - and believing in Him. When I speak of a decision I am refering to the act of faith to believe in Christ. Hopefully that clarifies. No matter how the Lord works in a persons heart - it results in faith. Part of faith is the action of believing. Some get cool conversion experiences (like Paul and Lazarous) and some receive the word through preaching - bottom line it all originates with God.

And yes - it is possible for an arminian to know the wretchedness of his heart through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I'm gonna go out a limb here and say that I'm fairly confident that the experiences you are speaking of here resulted in the folks "deciding" for Christ - and believing in Him. When I speak of a decision I am refering to the act of faith to believe in Christ. Hopefully that clarifies. No matter how the Lord works in a persons heart - it results in faith. Part of faith is the action of believing. Some get cool conversion experiences (like Paul and Lazarous) and some receive the word through preaching - bottom line it all originates with God.

And yes - it is possible for an arminian to know the wretchedness of his heart through the Holy Spirit.

If I may, I think you two gentlemen are talking past eachother a little bit. concerning the order of salvation. I think everyone in this discussion agrees that regeneration comes before faith. In regeneration, the spiritual resurrection from death to life, God seals us with His spirit, giving us the saving faith to make the conscious decision to follow and live for Christ, and because He seals us with His spirit, we cannot resist His free grace, we repent and weep for mercy knowing the wretched sinners we were, and God the Father in faithfulness to God the Son, forgives us.

Soli Deo Gloria!