Denied on basis of being a CredoBaptist

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I suspect those who do not consider Arminians their brothers were practically born and raised in the Reformed faith. I do not know if God saved me at the age of 8, but I know God saved me at the age of 20. Up to that point, I had read very little of the Bible, I knew very few theological terms and fewer philosophical terms, and my understanding of them was lacking to say the least. Nevertheless, God saved me monergistically even though I did not know the term, nor did I consider the order of salvation. I would say all true believers in Christ are saved monergistically, even if they do not understand or misunderstand it. I would say a Reformed understanding of salvation is not necessary for God to save a person. God can and does save people even through imperfect people and imperfect even inconsistent preaching. God changed me inside and out. I went from a pot smoking, meth user, to clean overnight. God changed my way of thinking, my desires, everything overnight. He brought true repentance, not therapy and relapses. I stopped smoking pot and using meth. I took my parents wise advice and dis-associated from everyone I knew that did drugs. God tamed my tongue such that I rarely said a curse word. I got rid of music and movies that reminded me of the old me. God put a strong desire in me for His Word, I read the Bible every day, and went to Church every Sunday, not because I had to, because I wanted to. God raised me from spiritual death to life, and I can look back and see the evidence of what He did. I have no doubt He saved me. I did not grow in knowledge as quickly as some people do, and there are a number of reasons for it. As I grew, God opened my eyes to a Reformed understanding, but it took years for my heart and stubborn mind to embrace it. Honestly, if it were not for computers and the internet, I would probably still be an Arminian. In my mind, if my dad, a confused semi-Arminian is not saved, then I am not saved. Why do I say that? Because I have watched him live the faith all of my life. He's not a preacher or elder or anything like that, but I have witnessed him turn the other cheek at times when the urges in me were anything but peaceful. I have watched other so-called Christians say and do things to him that would have caused others to backslide. Growing up, I can count on one hand the number of times he raised his voice in a shouting tone. He has his shortcomings, he is not a perfect example, but I have never met a more humble, generous, kind man in my life. He has been a living example of Christ to me. His faith in Christ is similar to mine at an earlier stage in my journey, he has a simple (but strong) faith, a simple (but firm) understanding, as I did when I first began. God had fewer academic plans for my dad, but more practical plans. When I think about the body of Christ, my dad would be with the feet members.

 

[Anoetos]

You have a wonderful dad, Apo, thank you for sharing that. My experience was quite different, my dad was an atheist. Maybe I'll write about him this fathers day.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Jesus Christ saves people. All of those saved were sorry for their sins and asked him to forgive them. This is all done by grace monergistically of course, but one isn't required to know that.

That's all a christian is, a guilty person who has been forgiven by Jesus Christ. Not all of those forgiven people are going to be given the grace of a solid understanding of theology in their lifetimes because it's not theology that saves, it's Jesus.

 

[AndOne]

We are like minded on this. How can anyone believe in a Sovereign God that says that His people will know Him, His sheep hear His voice and continue to call an Arminian minded person Brother? They do not serve the God of the Old or New Testament. The All powerful Sovereign El Shaddai, The First and the Last, Alpha and Omega. Our God is not a beggar nor respecter of men.

I simply cannot accept this line of thinking at all. If a person is trusting in Jesus alone for salvation then they are a brother or sister in Christ. I have heard many an Arminian minded person affirm this truth.

Do we look at Jehova Witness' or Mormons as Brothers in Christ? The only "works" we are saved by is the "work" done by Jesus Christ our Lord.

JW's don't believe that Jesus is God - Arminians do.
Mormons are polytheistic - Arminians believe in YHWH and that his son Jesus is God and that salvation is through Him alone. Mormons don't believe this...

 

[Osage Bluestem]

I simply cannot accept this line of thinking at all. If a person is trusting in Jesus alone for salvation then they are a brother or sister in Christ. I have heard many an Arminian minded person affirm this truth.




JW's don't believe that Jesus is God - Arminians do.
Mormons are polytheistic - Arminians believe in YHWH and that his son Jesus is God and that salvation is through Him alone. Mormons don't believe this...

I agree, comparing JW's and Mormons to Arminians isn't logical. Also denying that Christ has forgiven Arminians who were sorry for their sins and asked him to forgive them isn't logical. That is placing requirements on salvation that the bible does not.

 

[AMR]

We are like minded on this. How can anyone believe in a Sovereign God that says that His people will know Him, His sheep hear His voice and continue to call an Arminian minded person Brother? They do not serve the God of the Old or New Testament. The All powerful Sovereign El Shaddai, The First and the Last, Alpha and Omega. Our God is not a beggar nor respecter of men.

Brother! Yikes!

It is one thing for a person that is fully informed and refuses to accept the clear teachings of Scripture. This person has created intellectual idols of God and Christ and goes off worshiping them at the mortal and perhaps even their eternal peril. It is quite another for those that are ignorant (uninformed) of the teachings of Scripture. It is not man's experience that saves anyone. It is God's actions of the Spirit that blows where it wishes. That some in their ignorance misunderstand who is working to do and to will within the believer is no warrant to claim these persons are lost, hell-bound, and sin-bent.

Reminds me of the old joke that while their will be many Arminians in heaven, it will be the Reformed in heaven who will be able to tell them why they got there.

Do we look at Jehova Witness' or Mormons as Brothers in Christ?

Willful denial of the Trinity is a damnable offense. No one who does so can claim fellowship within orthodox Christendom.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I agree, comparing JW's and Mormons to Arminians isn't logical. Also denying that Christ has forgiven Arminians who were sorry for their sins and asked him to forgive them isn't logical. That is placing requirements on salvation that the bible does not.

As I stated before I was saved for more than a decade before I ever heard anything about the Doctrines of Grace. I was an Arminian Christian and I knew Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour. When I did first hear them I responded the way Paul obviously expected the Roman Christian to when he wrote to them.

What did Paul say the believers/saints in Rome would respond to what he says in Roman's nine? He expected them respond this way, 'You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"' It's clear that Paul expected the Christians of Rome to have a problem with what he says about predestination in this Chapter.

Do we believe the Roman "Christians" were not true believers or were believers in another gospel? NO. The were believers but Paul know they would not like what he says. Folks, that is a natural response from someone who does not understand this great message.

I remember throwing the book "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" as yell "I'm not gonna believe that garbage." But the Lord had other Plans and he showed me the awesomeness of these views, but it took me a couple of years and a great deal of struggle. I was a true believe through the whole deal.

Those who deny the salvation of those who don't understand these teachings go far beyond Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Luther and almost every solid teacher/believer in these truths.

I worry more about those like some here, because their understanding of the Gospel is as distorted as that of the Arminian.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[the particular baptist]

I simply cannot accept this line of thinking at all. If a person is trusting in Jesus alone for salvation then they are a brother or sister in Christ. I have heard many an Arminian minded person affirm this truth.

The Jesus of will worshipers and the Jesus of the Bible are different. They have nothing in common but the name. The gospel is not just the facts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. The gospel is the gospel according to the scriptures.

Will worshipers, ultimately, trust in their decision. They say they do not, but a few probing questions reveal what they are.

Will worship.

 

[AndOne]

The Jesus of will worshipers and the Jesus of the Bible are different. They have nothing in common but the name. The gospel is not just the facts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. The gospel is the gospel according to the scriptures.

Will worshipers, ultimately, trust in their decision. They say they do not, but a few probing questions reveal what they are.

Will worship.

I disagree - they do not worship the will - they love Jesus just as much as we do. They disagree with us as to how they got to that belief - but it doesn't mean that their belief is any less sincere.

Calling them "will worshipers" is no different from them calling us "fatalists." Brother - you need to be more charitable in your assesment of our fellow Christians.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

The Jesus of will worshipers and the Jesus of the Bible are different. They have nothing in common but the name. The gospel is not just the facts of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. The gospel is the gospel according to the scriptures.

Will worshipers, ultimately, trust in their decision. They say they do not, but a few probing questions reveal what they are.

Will worship.

I am amazed at how you can see into the hearts of ALL those people who claim to trust in Christ for salvation but do not understand the doctrines of Grace.

Wow --- What a gift -- As I wrote in the post above:

"What did Paul say the believers/saints in Rome would respond to what he says in Roman's nine? He expected them respond this way, 'You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"' It's clear that Paul expected the Christians of Rome to have a problem with what he says about predestination in this Chapter.

Do we believe the Roman "Christians" were not true believers or were believers in another gospel? NO. The were believers but Paul know they would not like what he says. Folks, that is a natural response from someone who does not understand this great message.

I remember throwing the book "Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" as yell "I'm not gonna believe that garbage." But the Lord had other Plans and he showed me the awesomeness of these views, but it took me a couple of years and a great deal of struggle. I was a true believe through the whole deal.

Those who deny the salvation of those who don't understand these teachings go far beyond Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Luther and almost every solid teacher/believer in these truths.

I worry more about those like some here, because their understanding of the Gospel is as distorted as that of the Arminian.

Coram Deo,
Kenith"

 

[msortwell]

I disagree - they do not worship the will - they love Jesus just as much as we do. They disagree with us as to how they got to that belief - but it doesn't mean that their belief is any less sincere.

Calling them "will worshipers" is no different from them calling us "fatalists." Brother - you need to be more charitable in your assesment of our fellow Christians.

I agree with you ~99%, but I wanted to point out what you already know before someone tries to use it to distract from the truth of your argument and position.

Sincerity is not the standard. I believe that is part of what Jesus teaches when he warns us that some on That Day will say to Him, "Lord, Lord" but He will testify that He never knew them.

As you allude to, the true Arminian may well believe the essentials of the gospel. In response to the Jailer, Paul did not lecture regarding things that are "hard to understand." He declared to him that he must believe on the Lord Jesus.

 

[the particular baptist]

Those who deny the salvation of those who don't understand these teachings go far beyond Paul, Augustine, Calvin, Luther and almost every solid teacher/believer in these truths.

I worry more about those like some here, because their understanding of the Gospel is as distorted as that of the Arminian.

Coram Deo,
Kenith"

I never said calvinism is essential to being saved. Im not a calvinist. The grace wrought understanding, the experiential understanding that salvation is of the Lord. A grace wrought understanding that man is less than a worm, a leper from the crown of the head to the bottom of their feet. What i am saying Mr Huguenot, is that reneneration is a mighty event in the saved sinners life, even as Christ raising from the dead. What i dont contend for is religion that is nothing more than head knowledge. It is these that trust in their "decision".

We agree to disagree.

 

[the particular baptist]

As you allude to, the true Arminian may well believe the essentials of the gospel. In response to the Jailer, Paul did not lecture regarding things that are "hard to understand." He declared to him that he must believe on the Lord Jesus.

Except that the jailer was regenerated at the time he asked Paul what to do, not saved as a result of following instructions.

 

[msortwell]

Except that the jailer was regenerated at the time he asked Paul what to do, not saved as a result of following instructions.

However, you have had some pretty harsh words for those who believe it is appropriate to draw necessary inferences.

You are inferring that this jailer somehow gained an accurate view of Sovereign Grace at some point.

You need to distinguish between what the jailer likely understand about what happened to him and what actually happened to him.

We understand that he was sovereignly regenerated which ensured that he would accept as true what Paul declared. But he most likely gave the mechanics of his coming to salvation no consideration at all, and might well simply have understood it as his having chosen to believe.

 

[the particular baptist]

However, you have had some pretty harsh words for those who believe it is appropriate to draw necessary inferences.

You are inferring that this jailer somehow gained an accurate view of Sovereign Grace at some point.

You need to distinguish between what the jailer likely understand about what happened to him and what actually happened to him.

We understand that he was sovereignly regenerated which ensured that he would accept as true what Paul declared. But he most likely gave the mechanics of his coming to salvation no consideration at all, and might well simply have understood it as his having chosen to believe.

No inferences Mr msortwell. The jailer was on the other side of the jail sleeping. He did not hear Paul & Silas praying, singing, etc, because he was asleep. Thus, when in terror he fell at the feet of Paul and asked him "what must i do to be saved" reveals that he was slain in his conscience when regenerated, saw himself under the wrath of God as a sinner, and asked Paul what he must now do. This is what i call experiential regeneration/conversion. There is no doubt of the work of grace.

The early christians had a good grasp of the sovereignty of God #1 because God taught them then as He teaches His people today. It is in these apostate last days full of professing christians who are will worshipers. God exists to please them, to do for them. They are the center of the universe. This is not the Holy Ghost teaching them, they are still in their sins with a mind at enmity with God.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

I never said calvinism is essential to being saved. Im not a calvinist. The grace wrought understanding, the experiential understanding that salvation is of the Lord. A grace wrought understanding that man is less than a worm, a leper from the crown of the head to the bottom of their feet. What i am saying Mr Huguenot, is that reneneration is a mighty event in the saved sinners life, even as Christ raising from the dead. What i dont contend for is religion that is nothing more than head knowledge. It is these that trust in their "decision".

We agree to disagree.

First, I did not mention "calvinism" in my post, though I did mention Calvin and other Christian men who I consider to be great men of the faith once delivered to the saints.

I was dealing with predestination and its implication to our salvation. Romans 9 is were Paul writes, 'For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.'

Notice Paul says, "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."It is here that Paul says that human will is not determinate in salvation, and also notice how he expects his CHRISTIAN Roman audience to respond -- which he does for them when he writes, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

Paul expects the Roman Christians, hearing what he wrote, to respond to what he said in the same way Ariminians still respond today, when they hear these things. It is they way I responded (as a Southern Baptist) 28 years ago when I first heard these things from my then, soon to be, PCA pastor bro-in-law.

I also agree with the poster earlier who mentioned that the term "will worshiper" to be a pejorative term. It is not needed and it does not help your argument. Arminian, Pelagian, semi-pelagian, Calvinist, Augustinian, etc are valid terms that have particular meanings. The term "will worshiper" and not worthy of this discussion.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[the particular baptist]

First, I did not mention "calvinism" in my post, though I did mention Calvin and other Christian men who I consider to be great men of the faith once delivered to the saints.

I was dealing with predestination and its implication to our salvation. Romans 9 is were Paul writes, 'For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.'

Notice Paul says, "So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."It is here that Paul says that human will is not determinate in salvation, and also notice how he expects his CHRISTIAN Roman audience to respond -- which he does for them when he writes, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?"

Paul expects the Roman Christians, hearing what he wrote, to respond to what he said in the same way Ariminians still respond today, when they hear these things. It is they way I responded (as a Southern Baptist) 28 years ago when I first heard these things from my then, soon to be, PCA pastor bro-in-law.

I also agree with the poster earlier who mentioned that the term "will worshiper" to be a pejorative term. It is not needed and it does not help your argument. Arminian, Pelagian, semi-pelagian, Calvinist, Augustinian, etc are valid terms that have particular meanings. The term "will worshiper" and not worthy of this discussion.

Kenith, i disagree with your interpretation of Romans 9. Im not alone.

I believe will worshiper to be an accurate description of work religionists of every stripe. I'm sorry you dont care for it. I dont care for alot of things people say either, but thats life.

Incidentally, i claim all the historic strict baptist statements of faith before the '89.

1655 Midland Baptist Confession - All men until they be quickened by Christ are dead in trespasses -- Ephesians 2:1; and therefore have no power of themselves to believe savingly -- John 15:5. But faith is the free gift of God, and the mighty work of God in the soul, even like the rising of Christ from the dead -- Ephesians 1.19. Therefore consent not with those who hold that God hath given power to all men to believe to salvation.


So once again, we are not going to change each others minds. Lets agree to disagree and move on shall we ?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

So once again, we are not going to change each others minds. Lets agree to disagree and move on shall we ?

I am more than happy to agree to disagree. I'm also happy to move on. I have not been very involved in this thread. Like everyone here, I will comment on items that are in play. This issue is in play and I happen to have a little time this evening to read and comment a bit.

Night,
Kenith

 

[Bryne]

I am still wondering if Lutherans are considered saved or not by those who don't think arminians are saved.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I am still wondering if Lutherans are considered saved or not by those who don't think arminians are saved.

I am not one of "those who", so I cannot speak for them, but I will give my take on the saved. Christianity is comprised of thousands of denominations and non-denominations. I would not say everyone that professes to be a Christian actually is a Christian. There are many fakes, frauds, blatantly false representatives. The author and finisher of our faith is also not a denomination, but our living Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. With all that said, I believe there will be individuals from more or less all truly Christian denominations. So I believe there will be quite a few Lutherans in Heaven, but not all Lutherans. I even believe there will be quite a few Catholics in Heaven. Same goes for Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. Overall, I think the love of God is greater than I can comprehend.