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Demon Posession
- Thread starter 4Jesus
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Generally I don't 'go looking' for anything, if He wants it for us, He puts it in our way...
He does come with signs and wonders still, He worked miracle after mighty miracle over here, so we would know it was Him,,, things for sure... He literally changed the hard clay in my backyard to a fine fine topsoil so i could plant a garden... it was too hard to even dig prior... and much more He did here... He's always doing stuff here, little stuff, sometimes big stuff like the clay...
i don't know just not mentioned I guess...
maybe there wasn't any need to discuss it there...
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I am real glad to hear you say that... I very much got the impression from the one post that you thought all that stuff was nonsense, don't know why would have to reread the post...
But anyway then, God bless you in that... it's tough work.
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I think what Quaffer is trying to say, is NOT that a person can be possessed after being filled with the Holy Spirit, but rather that if the spirits exist within the person already, then the presence of the Holy Spirit does cause them to manifest, but likewise also binds them.
I went through it a little bit too 4Jesus, it was no act... it was rather quite a shock...
Nonetheless I am quite thankful... for the knowledge the experience gave me. Prior to which I was as normal as the girl next door, no one would have ever suspected, including myself that those things were in me till the Holy spirit manifested them... to show me, and to bind them forever.
It is hard to understand I know, but Quaffer is very much right on in describing almost perfectly what I myself went through, and I have never met quaffer so that says quite a bit to me at least....
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Originally posted by Terri
You think Paul was possessed? Say it ain't so!
Paul was walking with God... if he had turned, after accepting Christ and being cleansed you can be sure his state would have been, in the end much worse than he had ever previously been....
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I'm sorry about that Eve, after running into so much opposition concerning biblical truth here I actually read this post to mean exactly the opposite of what you intended...
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This i agree to wholeheartedly. If we DO submit(very important first part of that scripture)to God, and resist him, the devil will flee. We cannot resist of our own accord.
Exactly. They were invited by that sin, and they also must be UNINVITED. The person gave them a previous right to be there but when they are born again, they have authority that then must be taken BY the believer himself. A demon in a Christian is a TRESPASSER, not a POSSESSOR. They have become the property of Christ. It is taking that authority, renouncing and repenting of ones OWN free will and subjecting the demons to Christ in him that makes it possible to be set free.
It does? How does one know a demon is speaking and not the person? It might be the cold air, cold enough to see your own breath, or it might be the speaking of a language that person does not know, or it might be the voice of a grown man coming out of a very sweet voiced woman or perhaps the putrid smell that sometimes accompanies them, or the ability to lift or break objects of great wieght, or even the entire change of the persons eyes and facial structure. One thing for sure, if they know and see Jesus in another person, one who is totally yielded to the authority of Jesus, they say so, and may even beg to be left alone. THIS is scriptural. See Mark 5.
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According to what i previously posted from Ezekiel, God most certainly can reside in the same place as demons, but will not linger there for an extended period of time. That scripture only indicates that we are HIs temple, it sais nothing further. In fact, here Paul was speaking to Christians, (verse 11, and such are some of you) and addressing the problem of sexual immorality and telling them to STOP for the very reason that thier bodies ARE the temple of God and not thier own to do with as they please.
4Jesus i do agree with the definition of 'cast out' ie ekballo: which means to eject-bring forth, cast (forth, out) drive out, expel, leave, pluck. And i also agree with your statement of the unorthodox 'exorcisms' that are done as ministries today, many are NOT in Gods plan.
A believer himself has the first and foremost authority, being in Christ, to cast out or away or off, whichever is the case THEMSELVES. It is thier will alone that determines thier freedom, but it is helpful to have a sword busting, Holy Spirit submitted Christian to help them. Holding a conversation with, arguing with, yelling at, or bargaining with a demon in ANY case is NOT biblical.
Not quite. The bible sais we do well to believe, for even the demons believe, and tremble. If you notice in the scripture i referred to in Mark 5, the demoniac of the Gadarenes, when he saw Jesus, he ran and worshipped Him. He obviously DID believe. Why then, just my simply believing didnt this alone free him? Demons have no morality whatsoever and thrive on human houses in which to dwell and gain control. They obviously hold on to the bitter end, like in this account, dreading the dry places. Therefore, Jesus TOLD them, to GET OUT.
I know, it doesnt SOUND right, but reality, and scripture states otherwise.
EveOfGrace
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That's true Quaffer but you need to remember that the new believer is only intermittently controlled by the Spirit and as they mature they achieve stability in their soul. No stage of spiritual growth is safe from backsliding.
Ahhh, so you like my phrase dynamics of the Holy Spirit, ehhh? Just because a person doesn't exhibit godly characteristics all the time, doesn't mean they are either possessed or influenced by demons. It is important to know where a person is in their spiritual walk and what is going on in their lives. It can really be hard to overcome our natural sin nature sometimes.
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Ezekiel says nothing about demons. The Israelites were sinners and backslidders, that is why God left them.
Start reading Acts and over and over you'll read "believe and you shall recieve the Holy Spirit." Jesus said:
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There was a day way back when, when the Lord was working overtime with me... I heard Him say all day long He kept saying... "I come to set my people free.." Endlessly I heard Him all day long.
The next day was a Sunday, I went to church and the very first words out of the pastors mouth were almost a yell... "I come to set my people free..." the pastor proclaimed...
The next day was a Sunday, I went to church and the very first words out of the pastors mouth were almost a yell... "I come to set my people free..." the pastor proclaimed...
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I think b4 one can understnd demon possession/oppression or whatever you might call it, one needs to understnd the make-up of the human body. We are basically tri-partite, just like the Godhead is triune and the OT tabernacle is three parts:
1. the spirit (the real you) -- Holy of Holies in the OT tabernacle where the Ark is
2. the soul (mind, will, emotions) -- Holy Place in the OT tabernacle
3. the body (your physical body) -- Outer Court in the OT tabernacle
I agree that not everything is caused by a demon. For eg, lust is often times just a cause of the flesh/old nature, which we ourselves need to put under the control of the Spirit.
But that aside, when we say demon "POSSESSION" we mean that the demon has full control of the spirit, soul and body of the person. ie the demon resides even in the spirit part of the person. The outward manifestations/signs of this is that the person speaks in another voice/language, possesses superhuman strength etc. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN TO A TRUE_BLUE born again Christian becos the Holy Spirit will not share room with a demon. This is true becos in the OT tabernacle, you'll never find a demon residing in the Tabernacle's Holy of Holies, where the Ark and God's presence literally dwells.
However, the Christian can be 'possessed' (a more accurate and less confusing term wld be oppressed or harassed) in the part of his soul or body.
Soul oppression -- these may be suicidal thots, hearing voices to murder someone, mental problems, severe depression etc. BUT the person is NOT POSSESSED by a demon in the first sense mentioned, just oppressed in the area of his mind/emotions. IOW the demon is trying to control his mind.
Body oppression -- these usu manifest in the form of physical ailments esp incurable diseases such as cancer, aids. The demon's way of manifesting itself into the natural realm in physical form expression is by way of disease showing on the body. That is why a lot of healing evangelist will tell u that usu in cases of incurable diseases like cancer, when the spirit of cancer is rebuked and cast out/off, the healing process begins, the cancer cells die and the tumours start to shrink. I'm not saying that all diseases are caused by spirits but this is one form of 'possession' or oppression by way of the body.
1. the spirit (the real you) -- Holy of Holies in the OT tabernacle where the Ark is
2. the soul (mind, will, emotions) -- Holy Place in the OT tabernacle
3. the body (your physical body) -- Outer Court in the OT tabernacle
I agree that not everything is caused by a demon. For eg, lust is often times just a cause of the flesh/old nature, which we ourselves need to put under the control of the Spirit.
But that aside, when we say demon "POSSESSION" we mean that the demon has full control of the spirit, soul and body of the person. ie the demon resides even in the spirit part of the person. The outward manifestations/signs of this is that the person speaks in another voice/language, possesses superhuman strength etc. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN TO A TRUE_BLUE born again Christian becos the Holy Spirit will not share room with a demon. This is true becos in the OT tabernacle, you'll never find a demon residing in the Tabernacle's Holy of Holies, where the Ark and God's presence literally dwells.
However, the Christian can be 'possessed' (a more accurate and less confusing term wld be oppressed or harassed) in the part of his soul or body.
Soul oppression -- these may be suicidal thots, hearing voices to murder someone, mental problems, severe depression etc. BUT the person is NOT POSSESSED by a demon in the first sense mentioned, just oppressed in the area of his mind/emotions. IOW the demon is trying to control his mind.
Body oppression -- these usu manifest in the form of physical ailments esp incurable diseases such as cancer, aids. The demon's way of manifesting itself into the natural realm in physical form expression is by way of disease showing on the body. That is why a lot of healing evangelist will tell u that usu in cases of incurable diseases like cancer, when the spirit of cancer is rebuked and cast out/off, the healing process begins, the cancer cells die and the tumours start to shrink. I'm not saying that all diseases are caused by spirits but this is one form of 'possession' or oppression by way of the body.
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Demons cause Aids?
I honestly don't know where someone would come up with that notion. Aids is a virus and is spread by the exchange of body fluids. One of the reasons for disease and sickness can be the result of the curse of Genesis 3 but I doubt very seriously if demons have anything to do with it.
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that demons are sometimes behind the cause of a sickness is not new. Look at scriptures:
Ac 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Lu 13:16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?
you may be able to explain it in scientific terms in terms of cells (that's the world's explanation of things cos they reject spiritual things), viruses etc but that does not mean spirits are not involved, directly or indirectly.
look at another example:
20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21 And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22 And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
Now if you bring this account to any scientist or psychologist, they'll never want to believe that it has anything to do with spirits, unless of cse they are Christians, and Christians who believe in the spiritual side of things. They'll just diagnose it as epilepsy or some other brain disease and prescribe drugs to control it. That's all they can do, but Jesus goes to the root cause.
again, I'm not saying that all diseases have a spirit responsible but there are certainly such cases.
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Now that is a fact. That is almost identical to what i said, in reference to Mark 5. It IS the Holy Spirit, and ones submission to Him, that causes them to manifest and yes, binds them. To the point of agony even. A person could be housing one without any real knowledge of it, since they are those from the father of lies, master of deception(they dont want to be revealed). The light, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, any and all, causes them to show themselves.
This i agree with partially. Possession sounds so much like having complete control. Which it is not. The spirit of a man before being saved is dead. Adam caused that. The Holy Spirit revives us, quickens us once again when we are born again. The soul however IS where demons can dwell. There are even certain kinds for each part of the mind. They are angels, fallen and twisted, but angels no less. Angels have ranks. That is a whole other topic and if one comes across a demon of ANY kind, Jesus is the Captian. Satan himself is but a prince. Jesus is King.
Stated more than once already and worth repeating.
Renting? Taring? If anyone has witnessed this, it leaves the person sore for a couple of days. That doesnt sound like something that was just hanging around, but took root.
If a person had such a foul spirit(as Jesus called it) or many of them depending upon their previous activities/situation, and came to Christ and was saved, some posters here claim that ALL demons would then be cast out. Jesus is much more compassionate than we are supposing here. An uprooting such as that could cause much undo pain and sufferring which is NOT in Jesus' nature. He is caring enough to let it be gradual. Setting free and making free are different things.
EveOfGrace
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Did you even read my post on Ezekiel? Ez8:3-5 tells us there was an IMAGE of jealousy near the brazen altar. Is that not an idol? Paul tells us(1cor10:19) that idols woshippers sacrifice to devils. Do you know what devil sacrifice is for? To invoke them.
In 8:10, they were portrayed upon the wall. Do you know why devil worshippers(clearly stated above) draw these abmoninations? To invoke the presence of demons.
Ez.8:14, do you know who Tammuz is?
I went through all that already.
Does recieving the Holy Spirit cast out a company of demons? read what i posted above.
EveofGrace
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I think this is rather ridiculous. What abt the torment that the demon itself has been causing this boy for years, and the despair of his father!? The demon even tries to kill the poor boy in fire and water. Can you imagine your own child and you having to suffer this every day for many many years? and then you can say that Jesus -- in being nice -- will gradually remove the demon so as not to cause the boy too much harm. I think any parent or child wld want immediate deliverance!
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I didnt say He removes the demon(singular) gradually. That is impossible. I was refferring to MORE than one of the magnitude that caused this boy to be rent and left sore, and limp. The demon is literrally TORN out of the soul. Like you said, he had been there for many years, and wasnt just lounging on a sofa in there, he was rooted in that boys soul, causing uncontrollabe bouts of violence. It was posted, and i just quoted, that the Holy Spirit is more than capable of binding such demons and casting them out in HIs time, by HIS leading.
That is something referred to earlier also. Deliverance ministries that are unorthodox. Some can even by cruel, with no regard to the victim. Casting demons out like they were pebbles on a beach(or attempting to), thinking it fitting to allow all sorts of manifestations causing alot of distress, and further torment to the already tortured soul. Blatantly lacking the compassion of Christ.
EveOfGrace
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