[deleted]

[sdowney717]

Also realize Open Heart...salvation is not an ongoing process, but sanctification is. Salvation being an ongoing process is like saying getting pregnant is an ongoing process....you are either pregnant or you are not.

John 5:24New King James Version (NKJV)
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

So we pass from death to life as a permanent transition, Jesus says everlasting life, not temporary life, nowhere does Jesus say we pass from life to death after we believe.

Jesus also says we have to hear His word. Which means several conditions must be met, hear means we have to be enabled to spiritually hear Christ, God must give us ears to hear spiritual truths else we wont believe which mean being regenerated precedes faith. The natural man does not receive the things of the Holy Spirit, and can not because they are Spiritually discerned.
1 Corintihians 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If he can not know Godly things, then how can he believe in Christ? Only way is he must no longer be natural but spiritually minded, that is regenerated alive to know a God who is alive in the Spirit. Flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit. God is a Spirit that we must worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Hear also can mean harkin which mean respond positively to the gospel in belief and faith. If your not hearing someone, that mans your not listening to what they say, so not harkening to what's being spoken, not learning, not listening, you stop up your ears, the jews in scripture would sometimes cover their ears so as not to hear. This is because they were hardened by God and they also hardened themselves.

Stephen as they were killing him they refused to hear by stopping their ears. They could not bear to hear Stephens spiritual words of truth.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him.

Jesus also tells unbelievers that they can not bear to hear Him speak. And also they desire to kill Christ

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 You are of yourfather the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[EmSw]

John 5:24New King James Version (NKJV)
Life and Judgment Are Through the Son
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

So we pass from death to life as a permanent transition, Jesus says everlasting life, not temporary life, nowhere does Jesus say we pass from life to death after we believe.

Jesus also says we have to hear His word. Which means several conditions must be met, hear means we have to be enabled to spiritually hear Christ, God must give us ears to hear spiritual truths else we wont believe which mean being regenerated precedes faith. The natural man does not receive the things of the Holy Spirit, and can not because they are Spiritually discerned.
1 Corintihians 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If he can not know Godly things, then how can he believe in Christ? Only way is he must no longer be natural but spiritually minded, that is regenerated alive to know a God who is alive in the Spirit. Flesh is flesh and Spirit is Spirit. God is a Spirit that we must worship in Spirit and in Truth.

Let me give you a passage which is foolishness to many on this forum; they just can't receive it.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

Many can't know this passage for it is spiritually discerned. They do not have ears to hear spiritual truths.

Hear also can mean harkin which mean respond positively to the gospel in belief and faith. If your not hearing someone, that mans your not listening to what they say, so not harkening to what's being spoken, not learning, not listening, you stop up your ears, the jews in scripture would sometimes cover their ears so as not to hear. This is because they were hardened by God and they also hardened themselves.

Stephen as they were killing him they refused to hear by stopping their ears. They could not bear to hear Stephens spiritual words of truth.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord;58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him.

Jesus also tells unbelievers that they can not bear to hear Him speak. And also they desire to kill Christ

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

44 You are of yourfather the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Many will not hearken to the passage in Ezekiel for they have stopped up their ears.

They just can't understand this passage, because the are not able to listen to His word.

 

[brotherjerry]

Seals can be broken. There is no guarantee that we will have the Holy Spirit forever no matter how much sin we commit. In fact, Peter says there is a sin unto death, so what we do can cause spiritual death.

And there are some seals that cannot be broken. And there is evidence to suggest that the seals mentioned that God does, cannot be broken, but the seals that men do, can be. At least in reference to the Bible.

 

[brotherjerry]

Let me give you a passage which is foolishness to many on this forum; they just can't receive it.

Ezekiel 18:31
Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit.

Many can't know this passage for it is spiritually discerned. They do not have ears to hear spiritual truths.

Even there an OT verse that supports the new birth...again not one verse that would say we can get rid of the new heart and the new spirit and take up the old spirit and the old heart...So your right, there are many on this forum that will not know the implications of this verse.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Open Heart said: ↑
Seals can be broken. There is no guarantee that we will have the Holy Spirit forever no matter how much sin we commit. In fact, Peter says there is a sin unto death, so what we do can cause spiritual death.

And there are some seals that cannot be broken. And there is evidence to suggest that the seals mentioned that God does, cannot be broken, but the seals that men do, can be. At least in reference to the Bible.

As well, to say that seals can be broken simply misses the point. The Bible wasn't speaking of seals in general in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. No, it was speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit AS a seal on EVERYONE who has believed. This seal is NEVER described as being conditional, but rather, per Eph 1:13 occurs with everyone who has believed. And this seal occurs WHEN one believes.

So, for OH to say that "seals can be broken", implies that even the Holy Spirit can be broken. Does that sound rational? No, it doesn't.

If this seal can be broken, how come there are no warnings as to HOW the seal can be broken. I know many will come up with many warning passages and then ASSUME that these passages are about loss of salvation through breaking of this seal. Yet, not one of the warning passages even mentions the sealing with the Holy Spirit, much less salvation as to what is being warned of being lost.

Second, it wasn't Peter who wrote about the "sin unto death", but John, 1 Jn 5:16. We know he was speaking of physical death through God's discipline because of the many examples we find in Scripture of people physically dying because of their sinful, rebellious, or unfaithful behaviors.

Here are some:
Ananias and Saphhira Acts 5
Corinthian believers who abused the Lord's Table 1 Cor 11:30
The entire (minus 2) first generation of the Exodus 1 Cor 10:1-11
King Saul 1 Chron 10:13,14

And, speaking of ol' Saul, even though he was killed by God for his disobedience, he still joined Samuel when he died. 1 Sam 28:19

And for those tempted to reply that Samuel only meant that Saul would end up in the ground at death is laughable. Why would a true prophet of God even consider the grave (ground) when one dies? Especially since he knew where he was after death?

So, please, those of the insecurity camp, please don't try that ridiculous argument. King Saul died the "sin unto death" and joined Samuel in Paradise. Which refutes every argument of the insecurity camp.

If anyone could lose salvation based on their behavior, I think Saul would qualify. Yet, even he joined Samuel in death. In Paradise, where Samuel was.

 

[brotherjerry]

Amen to that brother

 

[faroukfarouk]

Open Heart said: ↑
Seals can be broken. There is no guarantee that we will have the Holy Spirit forever no matter how much sin we commit. In fact, Peter says there is a sin unto death, so what we do can cause spiritual death.

As well, to say that seals can be broken simply misses the point. The Bible wasn't speaking of seals in general in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. No, it was speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit AS a seal on EVERYONE who has believed. This seal is NEVER described as being conditional, but rather, per Eph 1:13 occurs with everyone who has believed. And this seal occurs WHEN one believes.

So, for OH to say that "seals can be broken", implies that even the Holy Spirit can be broken. Does that sound rational? No, it doesn't.

If this seal can be broken, how come there are no warnings as to HOW the seal can be broken. I know many will come up with many warning passages and then ASSUME that these passages are about loss of salvation through breaking of this seal. Yet, not one of the warning passages even mentions the sealing with the Holy Spirit, much less salvation as to what is being warned of being lost.

Second, it wasn't Peter who wrote about the "sin unto death", but John, 1 Jn 5:16. We know he was speaking of physical death through God's discipline because of the many examples we find in Scripture of people physically dying because of their sinful, rebellious, or unfaithful behaviors.

Here are some:
Ananias and Saphhira Acts 5
Corinthian believers who abused the Lord's Table 1 Cor 11:30
The entire (minus 2) first generation of the Exodus 1 Cor 10:1-11
King Saul 1 Chron 10:13,14

And, speaking of ol' Saul, even though he was killed by God for his disobedience, he still joined Samuel when he died. 1 Sam 28:19

And for those tempted to reply that Samuel only meant that Saul would end up in the ground at death is laughable. Why would a true prophet of God even consider the grave (ground) when one dies? Especially since he knew where he was after death?

So, please, those of the insecurity camp, please don't try that ridiculous argument. King Saul died the "sin unto death" and joined Samuel in Paradise. Which refutes every argument of the insecurity camp.

If anyone could lose salvation based on their behavior, I think Saul would qualify. Yet, even he joined Samuel in death. In Paradise, where Samuel was.

Interesting; some ppl interpret the 1 John 5.16 passage 'sin unto death' as referring to a sin which has effects up to the point of death. (Like, for example, in Philippians 2, the Lord Jesus was 'obedient unto death', that is, death had no hold upon Him but He was obedient up to the point of death.)

 

[FreeGrace2]

Interesting; some ppl interpret the 1 John 5.16 passage 'sin unto death' as referring to a sin which has effects up to the point of death. (Like, for example, in Philippians 2, the Lord Jesus was 'obedient unto death', that is, death had no hold upon Him but He was obedient up to the point of death.)

Yes, interesting. But I gave actual examples from Scripture which supports my view.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yes, interesting. But I gave actual examples from Scripture which supports my view.

I can see what you mean as a general point, yes.

 

[sdowney717]

Open Heart said: ↑
Seals can be broken. There is no guarantee that we will have the Holy Spirit forever no matter how much sin we commit. In fact, Peter says there is a sin unto death, so what we do can cause spiritual death.

As well, to say that seals can be broken simply misses the point. The Bible wasn't speaking of seals in general in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. No, it was speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit AS a seal on EVERYONE who has believed. This seal is NEVER described as being conditional, but rather, per Eph 1:13 occurs with everyone who has believed. And this seal occurs WHEN one believes.

So, for OH to say that "seals can be broken", implies that even the Holy Spirit can be broken. Does that sound rational? No, it doesn't.

If this seal can be broken, how come there are no warnings as to HOW the seal can be broken. I know many will come up with many warning passages and then ASSUME that these passages are about loss of salvation through breaking of this seal. Yet, not one of the warning passages even mentions the sealing with the Holy Spirit, much less salvation as to what is being warned of being lost.

Second, it wasn't Peter who wrote about the "sin unto death", but John, 1 Jn 5:16. We know he was speaking of physical death through God's discipline because of the many examples we find in Scripture of people physically dying because of their sinful, rebellious, or unfaithful behaviors.

Here are some:
Ananias and Saphhira Acts 5
Corinthian believers who abused the Lord's Table 1 Cor 11:30
The entire (minus 2) first generation of the Exodus 1 Cor 10:1-11
King Saul 1 Chron 10:13,14

And, speaking of ol' Saul, even though he was killed by God for his disobedience, he still joined Samuel when he died. 1 Sam 28:19

And for those tempted to reply that Samuel only meant that Saul would end up in the ground at death is laughable. Why would a true prophet of God even consider the grave (ground) when one dies? Especially since he knew where he was after death?

So, please, those of the insecurity camp, please don't try that ridiculous argument. King Saul died the "sin unto death" and joined Samuel in Paradise. Which refutes every argument of the insecurity camp.

If anyone could lose salvation based on their behavior, I think Saul would qualify. Yet, even he joined Samuel in death. In Paradise, where Samuel was.

The same place?
Sheol ok is the abode of the dead and it was to that which Samuel was referring, the Saul would die and join him in the abode of the dead.
That place hell, was however split into two portions, the fiery torments and the paradise which was Abraham's bosum.
You can not say Saul went to paradise, Saul was rejected, Samuel was accepted. Saul murdered the priests of the Lord.

 

[sdowney717]

A change takes place in Saul after that Samuel tells Saul he has done evil in the sight of the Lord,

16 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Be quiet! And I will tell you what the Lord said to me last night.”

And he said to him, “Speak on.”

17 So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord? Why did you swoop down on the spoil, and do evil in the sight of the Lord?”

Saul has done evil, has not obeyed God's clear directive, Saul was covetous of the spoil, rather than obey God' command to utterly destroy all of it, God says Saul has done evil in the sight of the Lord, there is something very very wrong with Saul here.

He goes from desiring to worship the Lord my God, in a personal relationship, to telling Samuel, let's go worship the Lord your God. Saul desired the praise and adulation of the people MORE than the Lord God as Saul says in v30.
Saul has a problem with repentance, thinking he knows what is best for Israel instead of God. Saul is Proud and will not obey the Lord. Later on Saul starts setting up statues of himself and God sends evil spirits to plague Saul's mind..

27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore.28 So Samuel said to him, “The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man, that He should relent.”

30 Then he said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now, please, before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, that I may worship the Lord your God.” 31 So Samuel turned back after Saul, and Saul worshiped the Lord.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Open Heart said: ↑
Seals can be broken. There is no guarantee that we will have the Holy Spirit forever no matter how much sin we commit. In fact, Peter says there is a sin unto death, so what we do can cause spiritual death.

As well, to say that seals can be broken simply misses the point. The Bible wasn't speaking of seals in general in Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5. No, it was speaking specifically of the Holy Spirit AS a seal on EVERYONE who has believed. This seal is NEVER described as being conditional, but rather, per Eph 1:13 occurs with everyone who has believed. And this seal occurs WHEN one believes.

So, for OH to say that "seals can be broken", implies that even the Holy Spirit can be broken. Does that sound rational? No, it doesn't.

If this seal can be broken, how come there are no warnings as to HOW the seal can be broken. I know many will come up with many warning passages and then ASSUME that these passages are about loss of salvation through breaking of this seal. Yet, not one of the warning passages even mentions the sealing with the Holy Spirit, much less salvation as to what is being warned of being lost.

Second, it wasn't Peter who wrote about the "sin unto death", but John, 1 Jn 5:16. We know he was speaking of physical death through God's discipline because of the many examples we find in Scripture of people physically dying because of their sinful, rebellious, or unfaithful behaviors.

Here are some:
Ananias and Saphhira Acts 5
Corinthian believers who abused the Lord's Table 1 Cor 11:30
The entire (minus 2) first generation of the Exodus 1 Cor 10:1-11
King Saul 1 Chron 10:13,14

And, speaking of ol' Saul, even though he was killed by God for his disobedience, he still joined Samuel when he died. 1 Sam 28:19

And for those tempted to reply that Samuel only meant that Saul would end up in the ground at death is laughable. Why would a true prophet of God even consider the grave (ground) when one dies? Especially since he knew where he was after death?

So, please, those of the insecurity camp, please don't try that ridiculous argument. King Saul died the "sin unto death" and joined Samuel in Paradise. Which refutes every argument of the insecurity camp.

If anyone could lose salvation based on their behavior, I think Saul would qualify. Yet, even he joined Samuel in death. In Paradise, where Samuel was.

I believe that He makes a covenant with us AND seals is with the Holy Spirit as our guarantee of being one of Christ's Own and co-heirs to the Father.

It says that the Holy Spirit with our own spirit confirms that we ate Christ's

 

[Jesus First]

This seal is NEVER described as being conditional, but rather, per Eph 1:13 occurs with everyone who has believed. And this seal occurs WHEN one believes.

The context does not support your assertion that "everyone who has believed" [your quote] has this seal. You should allow the Bible in context to define your theology. Paul is writing to present tense believers and not making a blanket statement as your suppositions (I say this respectfully) require to validate your theology which you force on the Holy Scriptures.

Please listen to God's Word based on the context and grammar.

Because context is so important in Biblical interpretation, the question should be asked, who were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit?(Ephesians 1:13). Is Paul making a blanket statement to describe every one who has ever believed (as "FreeGrace2" wrongly teaches) or is it qualified to those in current faith?

In verse one Paul identified the audience as "Saints" and "are faithful". Because the audience is identified immediately, and the same group continues to be addressed up to, and beyond verse 13, this contextual insight should have some consideration when identifying those sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

"FreeGrace2" challenged this contextual observation in a previous post by pointing out (correctly) that the verb "are" ("faithful") is not in the Greek. This omission should be balanced with an understanding that Koine Greek cannot be translated exactly into English word for word because of differences in semantics. Sometimes helping words are necessary to help us understand more accurately what is being communicated. In the Greek, the word "are" (faithful") seems to be implied by witnessing numerous English translations.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that the Greek was ambiguous in verse one. There is additional evidence: verse 15 states, "...because I heard of your faith". Secondly, verse 19 further identified those sealed by the Holy Spirit as "...us who believe...". This time the underlying Koine Greek identified "believe" as a present tense participle which here indicates ongoing belief. The group in verse 19 is contextually linked to the audience in verse 13.

All of this leads to the point –its uncontextual to argue from this passage (v. 13) that those who left the faith remained sealed –as this group isn't even addressed. We want to draw out truth that the original audience would of understood and not load the text with uncontextual meanings to prop up theology.

The audience of this Epistle (written to believers), doesn't restrains the Spirit's ability to impart and illuminate truth into the hearts of unbelievers who have read it. Surely some have read this beautiful letter and believed.

In Christ!

 

[Jesus First]

The same place?
Sheol ok is the abode of the dead and it was to that which Samuel was referring, the Saul would die and join him in the abode of the dead.
That place hell, was however split into two portions, the fiery torments and the paradise which was Abraham's bosum.
You can not say Saul went to paradise, Saul was rejected, Samuel was accepted. Saul murdered the priests of the Lord.

I personally have difficulty believing anything the witch said as absolute truth. Just because she correctly predicted that Saul and his sons would die doesn't validate her entire account in my opinion. Saul feared for his life and because of this consulted with a demonic woman.

Should we validate her entire account, would this not indicate that they have power to call up dead saints and issue truths?
In Christ!

 

[sdowney717]

I personally have difficulty believing anything the witch said as absolute truth. Just because she correctly predicted that Saul and his sons would die doesn't validate her entire account in my opinion. Saul feared for his life and because of this consulted with a demonic woman.

Should we validate her entire account, would this not indicate that they have power to call up dead saints and issue truths?
In Christ!

When I think on that passage, we see that the witch is startled and says Saul has deceived her, something different from what she had normally expected to occur has occurred. God has decreed this vision to be shown to them both, not because the witch has powers to draw up a dead person to speak, but again the Lord tells Saul about the judgement of God against him.

Consider it like the fingers of the hand writing on the wall while they partied in Babylon using the templeware to make offerings to the demons and the donkey speaking to the mad prophet Balaam who spoke a true word of prophecy from God.

God has no problem using wicked evil people to demonstrate His power over them declaring to them His righteous judgement against them by miraculous means.

Now these things were written down for our edification.

 

[brotherjerry]

I believe that He makes a covenant with us AND seals is with the Holy Spirit as our guarantee of being one of Christ's Own and co-heirs to the Father.

It says that the Holy Spirit with our own spirit confirms that we ate Christ's

I have to respectfully disagree somewhat. Hebrews tells us about covenants.
Hebrews 9:15,16 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that , since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it.

See a covenant is sort of like a will. In order for the will to go into affect, the author of the will must die. Christ already made the covenant with those that have been and will be called. He already died which put the covenant into affect. This again is something that many of the conditional salvation miss. The covenant of eternal life is already being executed, Christ already died. Those who are called received the benefit of the covenant...which is salvation and eternal life.

 

[Jesus First]

Duplicate

 

[Jesus First]

Brother "sdowney717",

You make some good observations. The whole account is bizarre. I don't doubt that God can used mediums and wicked people as you stated well. He used Pharoah and many more to accomplish His will.

Thanks for providing your input.

In Christ!

 

[brotherjerry]

See there....Polite courteous discussion and there is mental juices flowing and getting people to think....If only all Christians were open to polite conversation and a willingness to listen and think about their doctrines and theologies.

 

[sdowney717]

See there....Polite courteous discussion and there is mental juices flowing and getting people to think....If only all Christians were open to polite conversation and a willingness to listen and think about their doctrines and theologies.

One of the fruits of the Spirit is shown in your life is you are willing to yield, to God's truth.

James 3
Heavenly Versus Demonic Wisdom
13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. 16 For where envy and self-seeking exist,confusion and every evil thing are there. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. 18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.