Deleted Account

[daq]

Almost all translations of the Greek manuscripts ignore the definite article "the" and the Dative case of the clause, 'Ἐπίστευσεν Believed δὲ but Ἀβραὰμ Abraham τῷ by the θεῷ God.' It is not ignored here for you and the correction is highlighted in red. Interestingly though the Dative case is not ignored in the rest of the syntax of the verse by most translations. That is highlighted in purple for you.

The Dative case is used for indirect objects, instruments of action, and there are other uses, And it is usually expressed by the use of the words by, to, of, or for depending on context, syntax and the translator's faith and or bias.

Rom 4:3 (TR) τί What γὰρ For ἡ The γραφὴ Scripture λέγει Says? Ἐπίστευσεν Believed δὲ but Ἀβραὰμ Abraham τῷ by the θεῷ God, καὶ And ἐλογίσθη Was Reckoned αὐτῷ To Him εἰς into δικαιοσύνην Righteousness.

Same problem you always seem to have. You do not realize that choosing by instead of what I posted is nothing more than reader-translator opinion, in this case, your opinion.

Luke 18:43 KJV
43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.

Luke 18:43 YLT (Young's Literal translation)
43 and presently he did receive sight, and was following him, glorifying God; and all the people, having seen, did give praise to God.

Luke 18:43 T/R
43 και παραχρημα ανεβλεψε και ηκολουθει αυτω δοξαζων τον θεον και πας ο λαος ιδων εδωκεν αινον τω θεω

και πας ο λαος ιδων εδωκεν αινον τω θεω
YLT ~ "and all the people, having seen, did give praise to God."
KJV ~ "and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God."

The translators know to render to/unto in this statement from the dative case: why didn't they choose by instead of to or unto? Because it is understood from context and logic and is therefore up to the reader-translator to decide. Abraham believed to/toward/into/unto Elohim by believing the Word which was spoken to him by way of and through the Word who came to him in the vision.

When the KJV says that Abraham believed God it still isn't totally incorrect because it obviously implies that Abraham believed what was spoken to him and not just a mere assent or belief "in God". The problem, as we have already discussed in your own thread, is the KJV and other translations which render Gen 15:6 to say that "Abraham believed in God". This was already explained to you and you agreed at that point in your own thread here:

Galatians 2:16

Most translations of this text translate the clause highlighted below with bold emphasis as shown here from the KJV. Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the...

www.christianforums.com

Moreover, I strongly suggest that you reconsider what you posted about the Hebrew in Reply#13 above.

 

[HIM]

Same problem you always seem to have. You do not realize that choosing by instead of what I posted is nothing more than reader-translator opinion, in this case, your opinion.

Considering the post you responded to that antagonistic commit isn't warranted. Here is the section you might of missed

The Dative case is used for indirect objects, instruments of action, and there are other uses, And it is usually expressed by the use of the words by, to, of, or for depending on context, syntax and the translator's faith and or bias.

Moreover, I strongly suggest that you reconsider what you posted about the Hebrew in Reply#13 above.

No need to posture. All that is posted is true but once again some of it is up to the translator. Some not all.

 

[HIM]

Why is it on the internet people are ignorantly rude, but when face to face they are not. As if real Christians don't use the internet to share?

 

[daq]

Considering the post you responded to that antagonistic commit isn't warranted. Here is the section you might of missed





No need to posture. All that is posted is true but once again some of it is up to the translator. Some not all.

Did you not post the following?

'Ἐπίστευσεν Believed δὲ but Ἀβραὰμ Abraham τῷ by the θεῷ God.'

Believing "by the God" sounds extremely Calvinistic. Are you Calvinist or Reform? That clearly is not proper according to the context which includes what is written in the Genesis passage and how the Apostolic writings are expounding, interpreting, and preaching this episode concerning Abraham. Elohim did not first enable Abraham to be capable of believing what was said and then credit that belief as righteousness. Abraham had freewill and free choice to either believe or not believe what was spoken to him in the vision.

Why is it on the internet people are ignorantly rude, but when face to face they are not. As if real Christians don't use the internet to share?

No doubt if you would treat others as you wish to be treated this would change for the better.

 

[biblelesson]

The scriptures come through the Holy Spirit guaranteed through the prophets to give us understanding of passages by way of other passages. The scriptures interpret themselves and we humans have no say in the interpretation of the word of God.

The scriptures have already come through the Holy Spirit as holy men/prophets were moved: 2 Peter 1:21 KJV.

But the issue is understanding what has already been written. The Holy Spirit Himself gives the believer discernment of the written word, and without the Holy Spirit’s guiding and teaching, the already written word cannot be understood, 1 Corinthians 2:14 KJV.

There are preachers and teachers to plant and water, but it is God who provides the increase (understanding), 1 Corinthians 3:6 KJV.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 KJV,
13 “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

John 14:26 KJV,
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The natural man cannot understand the Bible, even if he did compare scripture with scripture. To understand, he must be filled with the Spirit. Because there is a blindness that is on those without the Spirit, because God has blinded them. Only the elect are not blinded.
Romans 11:7 KJV “What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded”

 

[returntosender]

Blessings brother.. I’m done with this forum. God bless you though. Thanks for responding

Why?

 

[Leaf473]

Why?

I'm just guessing, but it's probably reasons like this

Bible Gateway passage: 2 Timothy 2:14 - New American Standard Bible

An Unashamed Worker - Remind them of these things, and solemnly exhort them in the presence of God not to dispute about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the listeners.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Titus 3:9 - New American Standard Bible

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are useless and worthless.

www.biblegateway.com

 

[guevaraj]

Why?

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 KJV, 13 “Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Brothers, humans who are not prophets are not guaranteed to be spiritual no matter how fervently they ask for the Holy Spirit to guide them. Those who put their trust in being led by the spirit in opposition to the guarantied word of God are deceived because they have not past the test of the spirit that leads them to have not deceived them by the only written source guarantied by the prophets to be spiritual.

Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. (Isaiah 8:20 NLT)​

The only way to understand the word of God is by using other passages in the word of God, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual". In other words, we cannot change the verb "believed" in the Abraham passage, but we can change our view of the newer Greek word we translate as the noun "faith" so as not to contradict the original Abraham passage that came first, coming to the only conclusion of God having revealed by Paul a deliberately made ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament between two prior different words: the verb "belief" and the noun "faith". This next passage is rendered clearer by the use of this fact of an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament revealed by Paul to have two possible meanings that are not the same.

You say you have faith (pistis), for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith (pistis) without good deeds is inactive? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his belief (pistis) and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith (pistis) complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed (pisteuó) God, and God credited to him as righteousness (work).” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do (faith), not by belief (pistis) alone. (James 2:19-24 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

To understand how God can allow an ambiguous word in Greek to help "deceive" with the "lie" of, "belief" without works being "faith" that saves, the following passage explains how those who do not love the truth would be unwilling to turn to the original Abraham passage to correct the lie facilitated by an ambiguous Greek word. This is evidence that Greek can be a minefield for those who do not love the truth to do their due diligence when a passage in Greek refers to a passage from Abraham but seems to give a different message because of God deliberately creating an ambiguous Greek word for two original Hebrew words: the verb "belief" and the noun "faith".

This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[HIM]

Did you not post the following?

'Ἐπίστευσεν Believed δὲ but Ἀβραὰμ Abraham τῷ by the θεῷ God.'

Yep with this. "The Dative case is used for indirect objects, instruments of action, and there are other uses, And it is usually expressed by the use of the words by, to, of, or for depending on context, syntax and the translator's faith and or bias."

Believing "by the God" sounds extremely Calvinistic. Are you Calvinist or Reform?

No and We could care less about Calvinism, Reformed or any denomination my friend. Presently we go to Sabbath Chapel which is actually across the street from where I live. They claim to be reformed SDA's but they are more non-denomination due to the fact that they do not get caught up in "to much" perceived "doctrine". A bit of error coming from the pulpit though, but it is the same in any and all denominations. What about you?

That clearly is not proper according to the context which includes what is written in the Genesis passage and how the Apostolic writings are expounding, interpreting, and preaching this episode concerning Abraham.

Apostolic writings? From the supposed fathers. Those whom were around during the time of the Apostles? Are you Catholic? In Paul's time the mystery of iniquity had already started it's work. So?????
2Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Elohim did not first enable Abraham to be capable of believing what was said and then credit that belief as righteousness. Abraham had freewill and free choice to either believe or not believe what was spoken to him in the vision.

Paul through the Spirit in Acts 17 calls all people the sons of God, and states, In Him we live move and have our being. And this is stated to pagans. And Phil. 2:13 says emphatically that it is God that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. As Romans 2 shares that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? There is no denying any of that.

As long as the Dative case is recognized To or by makes no difference to me, but by suits the context better. For the Context is the faith. And that my friend starts in chapter 2:16 basically. But really comes out in verse 20. Where it says in the first person in respect to Paul, but here we will state in the plural since it applies to us as well. It says, For we are dead but live. Yet not us but Christ lives in Us. And the Life we now live in the flesh we live though the faith OF (Genitive Case) the Son of God who gave himself for us.

And this is profound. In so much that this premise continues through chapter 3. Verse 2 stating that it is the hearing of faith and it is this hearing that that they began in the Spirit with. This faith is that which is the OF the Son of God that we live through or don't. The choice is ours.
Verse 5 continues in that it says, He that gifted us the Spirit and worked miracles in you, did He do it by the works of the law or the hearing of Faith? The faith of Christ.

As does verse 7, in that it states we who are out of faith are the children of Abraham. The faith of Christ, this the context and In that context is it stated what justified Abraham. Made Him righteous. It was the fact that he believed to the or and by the God. By being the best chioce since our faith is not of our own but through Christ as verse 2:20 states,

Verse 22 continues in this context in that it states that it is out of the faith OF Christ Jesus the promise is received if we are presently believing. Then Verse 23 finally uses the definite article in the Greek in respect to the faith. And in this case should not be ignored when a translation is done from the Greek. For It is the direct object, it being in the Accusative case.

In Galatians it is only here and in verse 1:23 that faith is in this case. Since it is the direct object the definite article should be recognized here in verse 3:23 as it is in most translations in 1:23.

As we continue to verse 24 were it states indicatively that the Law was our school master to bring us INTO Christ that we might be justified, made righteous out of the faith in which he had been speaking before. Which is that which we share in through Christ living in us.

So, with the fact that the faith of Christ came, we are no longer under the tutor. Because, as the text states we are all children of God through the faith in Christ Jesus. For as many that have been baptized INTO Christ, Christ have we put on. Hense we are living through Him and His faith.

Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Gal 1:22 And was unknown by face unto the churches of Judaea which were in Christ:
Gal 1:23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
Gal 1:24 And they glorified God in me.


Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that gifted to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles in you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed (to the and or by) the God, and it was accounted to him into righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are out of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise out of faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before the faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us into Christ, that we might be justified out of faith.
Gal 3:25 SO coming OF the faith, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God through the faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

No doubt if you would treat others as you wish to be treated this would change for the better.

First person plural not singular.

 

[returntosender]

God bless!

 

[returntosender]

Brothers, humans who are not prophets are not guaranteed to be spiritual no matter how fervently they ask for the Holy Spirit to guide them. Those who put their trust in being led by the spirit in opposition to the guarantied word of God are deceived because they have not past the test of the spirit that leads them to have not deceived them by the only written source guarantied by the prophets to be spiritual.

Look to God’s instructions and teachings! People who contradict his word are completely in the dark. (Isaiah 8:20 NLT)​

The only way to understand the word of God is by using other passages in the word of God, "comparing spiritual things with spiritual". In other words, we cannot change the verb "believed" in the Abraham passage, but we can change our view of the newer Greek word we translate as the noun "faith" so as not to contradict the original Abraham passage that came first, coming to the only conclusion of God having revealed by Paul a deliberately made ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament between two prior different words: the verb "belief" and the noun "faith". This next passage is rendered clearer by the use of this fact of an ambiguous word in the Greek New Testament revealed by Paul to have two possible meanings that are not the same.

You say you have faith (pistis), for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith (pistis) without good deeds is inactive? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his belief (pistis) and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith (pistis) complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed (pisteuó) God, and God credited to him as righteousness (work).” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do (faith), not by belief (pistis) alone. (James 2:19-24 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

To understand how God can allow an ambiguous word in Greek to help "deceive" with the "lie" of, "belief" without works being "faith" that saves, the following passage explains how those who do not love the truth would be unwilling to turn to the original Abraham passage to correct the lie facilitated by an ambiguous Greek word. This is evidence that Greek can be a minefield for those who do not love the truth to do their due diligence when a passage in Greek refers to a passage from Abraham but seems to give a different message because of God deliberately creating an ambiguous Greek word for two original Hebrew words: the verb "belief" and the noun "faith".

This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I don't believe any one person can always be right .

 

[guevaraj]

I don't believe any one person can always be right .

Brother, humans have no say in the matter! Whether it is right or wrong is completely based on the word of God.

For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes when he received honor and glory from God the Father. The voice from the majestic glory of God said to him, “This is my dearly loved Son, who brings me great joy.” We ourselves heard that voice from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. Because of that experience, we have even greater confidence in the message proclaimed by the prophets. You must pay close attention to what they wrote, for their words are like a lamp shining in a dark place—until the Day dawns, and Christ the Morning Star shines in your hearts. Above all, you must realize that no prophecy in Scripture ever came from the prophet’s own understanding, or from human initiative. No, those prophets were moved by the Holy Spirit, and they spoke from God. (2 Peter 1:16-21 NLT)​

Basically, you have two choices due to the apparent change of wording by Paul from "belief" to "faith" in our English translations for what is credited as "righteousness". Either Paul has changed the word of God by the prophets, disqualifying his ministry by contradicting the original Abraham passage when he substitutes Abraham's having "believed" with a different Hebrew word "faith" not written in the original Abraham passage for what is credited as "righteousness", or Paul has not changed the original Abraham passage at all and is revealing an ambiguous word in Greek that can mean "belief" just as in the original Abraham passage. That revelation by Paul of an ambiguous word would mean that the Greek word "pistis" should not always be translated in our English Bibles as "faith" when it sometimes refers to "belief", depending on the context. The ambiguous use of the word "pistis" is confirmed by having clarified the following passage where "belief" alone is not sufficient and must be followed by works of "righteousness" to complete our "faith", just as Abraham obeyed God with such trust that he was willing to sacrifice his only son at the alter.

You say you have faith (pistis), for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror. How foolish! Can’t you see that faith (pistis) without good deeds is inactive? Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see, his belief (pistis) and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith (pistis) complete. And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed (pisteuó) God, and God credited to him as righteousness (work).” He was even called the friend of God. So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do (faith), not by belief (pistis) alone. (James 2:19-24 NLT fixed and overlaid with commentary)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[biblelesson]

Brothers, humans who are not prophets are not guaranteed to be spiritual no matter how fervently they ask for the Holy Spirit to guide them

I’m a sister, and your comment is so far off base till it’s scary. I can’t believe you have argued against the work of the Holy Spirit. It does no good to even provide you with all the many, many scriptures to show you in God’s word that salvation is God’s work, who gives His children the Spirit automatically when they come to Jesus.

 

[guevaraj]

I’m a sister, and your comment is so far off base till it’s scary. I can’t believe you have argued against the work of the Holy Spirit. It does no good to even provide you with all the many, many scriptures to show you in God’s word that salvation is God’s work, who gives His children the Spirit automatically when they come to Jesus.

Sister, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, October 27, 2023 at 10:54 AM EDT! Having the Holy Spirit does not guarantee our having the truth, because the Holy Spirit guaranties the truth by the "prophets" and we are told to "test" the spirits by comparing what they say with the guaranteed truth by the "prophets". Not everyone is willing to "test" the spirits to not be "deceived" when these spirits are telling them what they want to hear. Just because you're "enjoying" what you think others aren't "enjoying" when doing evil by disobeying God's Eleven Commandments rather than believing the truth of those who obey God's Eleven Commandments to separate sin from our character does not mean that you have the truth to be saved. "Enjoying" evil does not guaranty that you have the truth!

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God. But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here. But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world. Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them. But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception. (1 John 4:1-6 NLT)​

Most people do not turn to the rest of the scriptures to understand a passage of scripture, instead excusing their false understanding because they think they have the truth by having the spirit when the Holy Spirit expects you to study the scriptures so that you can defend that truth using the scriptures. Lazy humans use the excuse that, because they have the Holy Spirit, there is no need to study the scriptures but the Holy Spirit wants you to learn God's truths by studying the scriptures so that you can defend the truth when sharing it with others. The Holy Spirit will not tell you personally the truths that He has already written down by the prophets for all to study. He expects those who love the truth to find the truth in the guaranteed word of God by the Prophets and will not force His truths on those who do not love the truth to be saved.

This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[biblelesson]

Sister, happy Sabbath, starting this Friday, October 27, 2023 at 10:54 AM EDT! Having the Holy Spirit does not guarantee our having the truth, because the Holy Spirit guaranties the truth by the "prophets" and we are told to "test" the spirits by comparing what they say with the guaranteed truth by the "prophets". Not everyone is willing to "test" the spirits to not be "deceived" when these spirits are telling them what they want to hear. Just because you're "enjoying" what you think others aren't "enjoying" when doing evil by disobeying God's Eleven Commandments rather than believing the truth of those who obey God's Eleven Commandments to separate sin from our character does not mean that you have the truth to be saved. "Enjoying" evil does not guaranty that you have the truth!

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world. This is how we know if they have the Spirit of God: If a person claiming to be a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ came in a real body, that person has the Spirit of God. But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here. But you belong to God, my dear children. You have already won a victory over those people, because the Spirit who lives in you is greater than the spirit who lives in the world. Those people belong to this world, so they speak from the world’s viewpoint, and the world listens to them. But we belong to God, and those who know God listen to us. If they do not belong to God, they do not listen to us. That is how we know if someone has the Spirit of truth or the spirit of deception. (1 John 4:1-6 NLT)​

Most people do not turn to the rest of the scriptures to understand a passage of scripture, instead excusing their false understanding because they think they have the truth by having the spirit when the Holy Spirit expects you to study the scriptures so that you can defend that truth using the scriptures. Lazy humans use the excuse that, because they have the Holy Spirit, there is no need to study the scriptures but the Holy Spirit wants you to learn God's truths by studying the scriptures so that you can defend the truth when sharing it with others. The Holy Spirit will not tell you personally the truths that He has already written down by the prophets for all to study. He expects those who love the truth to find the truth in the guaranteed word of God by the Prophets and will not force His truths on those who do not love the truth to be saved.

This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles. He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them. So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies. Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I’m not speaking of the many warnings God provide us in His word relating to testing the Spirit, and falsehood. God warns in His word about another Jesus and another Spirit. But this is not what I was speaking of.

I’m speaking about what God has ordained for those who are His children; true believers, who automatically receive the Holy Spirit as the earnest of their inheritance, Ephesians 1:13 KJV. This is a gift from God according to His grace.

The Holy Spirit is given for a reason which is something we all need to know in God’s word.

 

[HIM]

God bless!

Father God, Lord of all, thank You for all You do and the blessings You give us every day in Christ Jesus, amen.

 

[guevaraj]

The Holy Spirit is given for a reason which is something we all need to know in God’s word.

Sister, there are other competing louder spirits that can easily still the thunder of the Holy Spirit when we are listening to the loudest spirit. We want the Holy Spirit to be loud to overpower our own spirit, when God will not overpower louder spirits and God is found in "the sound of a gentle whisper" where Elijah had to get closer to hear His voice.

“Go out and stand before me on the mountain,” the LORD told him. And as Elijah stood there, the LORD passed by, and a mighty windstorm hit the mountain. It was such a terrible blast that the rocks were torn loose, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake there was a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire there was the sound of a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And a voice said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” (1 Kings 19:11-13 NLT)​

When you are tuned to hear the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will confirm having found truth when we search for it in His word guarantied by the prophets, helping us adapt truths faster as we find them. That is how the Holy Spirit used our prophetess to grow our church in the understanding of His word by having her confirm the truths we found in our study of God's word and not by telling us these truths again through her. We needed to find truths first in God's word before she confirmed them to help us adapt the truths more quickly as we found them. We needed her to unite us because we were initially members of many denominations who had believed William Miller's message about the soon return of Jesus within his lifetime at the completion of the longest prophesy in the Bible, the 2300-year prophesy that he misunderstood as the coming of Jesus when it was the beginning of the heavenly judgment that occurs before the coming of Jesus. Here is what our prophetess said about the Bible and the help of the Holy Spirit to understand it.

I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible, yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of God plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. (Early Writings, pages 220-221)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Sister, there are other competing louder spirits that can easily still the thunder of the Holy Spirit when we are listening to the loudest spirit. We want the Holy Spirit to be loud to overpower our own spirit, when God will not overpower louder spirits and God is found in "the sound of a gentle whisper" where Elijah had to get closer to hear His voice.

“Go out and stand before me on the mountain,” the LORD told him. And as Elijah stood there, the LORD passed by, and a mighty windstorm hit the mountain. It was such a terrible blast that the rocks were torn loose, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake there was a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire there was the sound of a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he wrapped his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. And a voice said, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” (1 Kings 19:11-13 NLT)​

When you are tuned to hear the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit will confirm having found truth when we search for it in His word guarantied by the prophets, helping us adapt truths faster as we find them.

Hello, brother! Different Christians believe the Holy Spirit has told them different things about what the Bible says. That's why I'm glad for places like this where we can get together and "compare notes" so to speak.

That is how the Holy Spirit used our prophetess to grow our church in the understanding of His word by having her confirm the truths we found in our study of God's word and not by telling us these truths again through her. We needed to find truths first in God's word before she confirmed them to help us adapt the truths more quickly as we found them. We needed her to unite us because we were initially members of many denominations who had believed William Miller's message about the soon return of Jesus within his lifetime at the completion of the longest prophesy in the Bible, the 2300-year prophesy that he misunderstood as the coming of Jesus when it was the beginning of the heavenly judgment that occurs before the coming of Jesus. Here is what our prophetess said about the Bible and the help of the Holy Spirit to understand it.

I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible, yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of God plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. (Early Writings, pages 220-221)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[biblelesson]

Hello, brother! Different Christians believe the Holy Spirit has told them different things about what the Bible says. That's why I'm glad for places like this where we can get together and "compare notes" so to speak.

It’s really not about what different people tell us about the Holy Spirit. What matters is what the Bible tells us about the Holy Spirit.

Do you deny scripture?
Are you judging scripture based on what people say? We can’t do that.

The Bible stands for itself!

Without attributing these scriptures below to what people say, do you believe the Bible when the word says,

1) John 14:26 KJV, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2) Romans 8:26 KJV, Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

3) 1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV, What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own.

4) Romans 15:13 KJV, Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

5) 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Now the way this conversation is going, it seems the truth of scripture is being judged based on some people’s misinterpretation if it. But what does the Bible say? Let God be true, and all men a lier…, Romans 3:4 KJV

You see? Don’t know if you see, but you must refocus from people to God’s truth. You cannot determine who God is based on looking at the misconceptions of people who don’t follow scripture.

We are to speak the word of God. Not the word of people.

We are not to read the word of God and judge the world, or people, and/or use the Bible as a whipping stick. That’s not our job. The world has already been judged. You must look at “you” and what the Bible is saying for “your life,” not other people lives in the form of judging.

What does the Bible say about judging others? Romans 2:1-3 KJV,
1 “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.” 2 “But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.” 3 “And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?”

We can’t judge people. We can only follow what the Bible say for us in our lives. If we are to teach, we teach with love, not judging another, but guiding a soul to the truth.

If the Bible says God gives His Holy Spirit to His children, then it’s true. If a person say they have the Holy Spirit but walk contrary to the word of God, then it’s possible they are being misled. But who determines that? Not you, not me, nor anyone. Only God can determine that. We only follow the Word! Don’t follow wrong!

Romans 2:1-3 KJV

 

[Leaf473]

It’s really not about what different people tell us about the Holy Spirit. What matters is what the Bible tells us about the Holy Spirit.

Do you deny scripture?
Are you judging scripture based on what people say? We can’t do that.

The Bible stands for itself!

Without attributing these scriptures below to what people say, do you believe the Bible when the word says,

1) John 14:26 KJV, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2) Romans 8:26 KJV, Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

3) 1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV, What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own.

4) Romans 15:13 KJV, Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

5) 1 Corinthians 2:13 KJV, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Now the way this conversation is going, it seems the truth of scripture is being judged based on some people’s misinterpretation if it. But what does the Bible say? Let God be true, and all men a lier…, Romans 3:4 KJV

You see? Don’t know if you see, but you must refocus from people to God’s truth. You cannot determine who God is based on looking at the misconceptions of people who don’t follow scripture.

We are to speak the word of God. Not the word of people.

We are not to read the word of God and judge the world, or people, and/or use the Bible as a whipping stick. That’s not our job. The world has already been judged. You must look at “you” and what the Bible is saying for “your life,” not other people lives in the form of judging.

What does the Bible say about judging others? Romans 2:1-3 KJV,
1 “Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.” 2 “But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.” 3 “And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?”

We can’t judge people. We can only follow what the Bible say for us in our lives. If we are to teach, we teach with love, not judging another, but guiding a soul to the truth.

If the Bible says God gives His Holy Spirit to His children, then it’s true. If a person say they have the Holy Spirit but walk contrary to the word of God, then it’s possible they are being misled. But who determines that? Not you, not me, nor anyone. Only God can determine that. We only follow the Word! Don’t follow wrong!

Romans 2:1-3 KJV

Hello sister, thank you for the nice message I agree with most of what you say.

Some things to consider, if you wish:
I don't think all of the same things about the Bible today that I did 20 years ago. Yet both now and then, I would say that I was following the scriptures and listening to the Holy Spirit.

What changed? A big piece was rubbing alongside of other Christians... the Church, the body of Christ.

When we read the Bible - or anything - we bring our prejudices and preconceptions along with us. If we only study the Bible by ourselves, those prejudices and preconceptions never get challenged.

When Jesus says that the Spirit will "guide you into all truth", does he mean each individual, or the body of Christ as a whole?

20 years ago, if you'd asked me what is the pillar and ground of the truth, I would've said the Bible.

Then someone showed me this passage

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 3:15 - King James Version

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

www.biblegateway.com

(Indeed, on a different forum, someone had talked about the church in those terms and someone else had accused them of just making it up, not realizing it was a quote from the scriptures.)
There's a lot more we can talk about on the subject, if you wish... but I'll stop there for now