Degrees of Sin

[ILAF1234]

The other day, some friends and I were at lunch. One of my friends is looked at as "all-knowing" in the area of religion. For all practical purposes lets call him Bill.

The other friend that made the comment that caused the controversy is one who constantly talks about girls. I mean, he can't even let them walk by without talking about having his way with them. Unfortunately, we all think the same things, we are just able to keep them to ourselves. Also to make it easy, let's call this friend Joe.

So anyway, Joe is talking about what he would like to do with this girl, and says, "In god's eyes, isn't talking about it just as bad as doing it?" He directed towards Bill, because for some reason people think he's all knowing in the area of religion.

This is when I chime in and say, "Of course it doesn't mean that!"

Bill disagrees and says, "That is true!"

I come back with, "So you're telling me that If I think about murdering someone and dont do it, it's exactly the same as murdering them"?

"Yes," Bill says, "It's committing murder in your heart!"

"Give me a break," I said, "You actually believe that?"

"You can't believe some parts or the bible and not believe all of it!" Bill said.

So at this time, Joe stops the argument that had unexpectedly erupted.

So here's my question:

I've read in the bible what Bill was talking about. But I feel like what that part means is that, In order to be the best christian person you can be, you should scold yourself for thinking about sinning as bad as you would for committing the sin. In other words, if you think about having sex outside of marriage, you should scold yourself to the same extent as if you had actually committed the act.

But... to tell my friend Joe that him thinking about girls in a sexual way is just as bad as him going out and having his way with them is absolutely ridiculous in my eyes. If this is the case, then why should Joe just think about these things? If it's the same in god's eyes why should Joe not just go ahead and get his money's worth.

The fact of the matter is, I feel like I understand what god meant when he said that when one lusts about something they are committing the sin in their heart.

But, I feel that Bill definately has the wrong idea about what this means.

To say that there are no degrees to sin is only true to a certain extent. Maybe god sees them as the same, but if we tell people that all sins are the same, why only think about the sins?? Why not go out and do them???

One might argue that it is worse to know something is wrong and commit the sin anyway... Or, If you had the correct type of faith you would know that It was not right to knowingly commit these sins.

These arguments are only valid if there are indeed degrees of sin.

What it all boils down to, is if there are no degrees of sin, what's the incentive to suppress the urge of actually carrying out the act.

How can anyone tell me that my friend talking or thinking about having his way with girls and not going through with the act is just as bad as him doing the acts he is thinking about.

An argument in this direction seems ridiculous to me.

Could someone maybe provide some insight to this. Maybe I'm wrong, but If I am wrong, I'd like to know why?

Thank you for reading.. Sorry about the long post.

 

[wonderwaleye]

Dear ILAF1234


There is only ONE way I can answer your question.



" WHO HERE CAN MEASURE GODS GRACE "


Only GOD knows your heart.



LET EACH AND EVERYONE OF US REMEMBER:




XEven though you can't see Him, GOD is there!O
( click on the X and move to the O ) ( then feel who is around you )

This is the second time today that the HOLY SPIRIT has given this answer. I am sure glad HE took it out of my hands!

 

[Harlan Norris]

The other day, some friends and I were at lunch. One of my friends is looked at as "all-knowing" in the area of religion. For all practical purposes lets call him Bill.

The other friend that made the comment that caused the controversy is one who constantly talks about girls. I mean, he can't even let them walk by without talking about having his way with them. Unfortunately, we all think the same things, we are just able to keep them to ourselves. Also to make it easy, let's call this friend Joe.

So anyway, Joe is talking about what he would like to do with this girl, and says, "In god's eyes, isn't talking about it just as bad as doing it?" He directed towards Bill, because for some reason people think he's all knowing in the area of religion.

This is when I chime in and say, "Of course it doesn't mean that!"

Bill disagrees and says, "That is true!"

I come back with, "So you're telling me that If I think about murdering someone and dont do it, it's exactly the same as murdering them"?

"Yes," Bill says, "It's committing murder in your heart!"

"Give me a break," I said, "You actually believe that?"

"You can't believe some parts or the bible and not believe all of it!" Bill said.

So at this time, Joe stops the argument that had unexpectedly erupted.

So here's my question:

I've read in the bible what Bill was talking about. But I feel like what that part means is that, In order to be the best christian person you can be, you should scold yourself for thinking about sinning as bad as you would for committing the sin. In other words, if you think about having sex outside of marriage, you should scold yourself to the same extent as if you had actually committed the act.

But... to tell my friend Joe that him thinking about girls in a sexual way is just as bad as him going out and having his way with them is absolutely ridiculous in my eyes. If this is the case, then why should Joe just think about these things? If it's the same in god's eyes why should Joe not just go ahead and get his money's worth.

The fact of the matter is, I feel like I understand what god meant when he said that when one lusts about something they are committing the sin in their heart.

But, I feel that Bill definately has the wrong idea about what this means.

To say that there are no degrees to sin is only true to a certain extent. Maybe god sees them as the same, but if we tell people that all sins are the same, why only think about the sins?? Why not go out and do them???

One might argue that it is worse to know something is wrong and commit the sin anyway... Or, If you had the correct type of faith you would know that It was not right to knowingly commit these sins.

These arguments are only valid if there are indeed degrees of sin.

What it all boils down to, is if there are no degrees of sin, what's the incentive to suppress the urge of actually carrying out the act.

How can anyone tell me that my friend talking or thinking about having his way with girls and not going through with the act is just as bad as him doing the acts he is thinking about.

An argument in this direction seems ridiculous to me.

Could someone maybe provide some insight to this. Maybe I'm wrong, but If I am wrong, I'd like to know why?

Thank you for reading.. Sorry about the long post.

Well, we all make excuses for ourselves. That is human nature.But as believers, human nature is what we call the flesh.Our walk of faith is designed to help us conquor the flesh.Evil thoughts lead to evil deeds.Does everyone have evil thoughts ? Yes. Does everyone follow through with these thoughts ? No. But the more aware we are of our thoughts the clearer our view of our heart will be. Then when we say the lords prayer,and ask that our sins be forgiven,we mean it.We know for a fact that we hold evil in our hearts. This is the process that causes spiritual growth.Once we are aware of the evil in our heart, we desire to be rid of it.That desire is repentance. When we repent of our sin,truly repent.Our sin is forgiven,and our Christian walk becomes straighter.

 

[Dondi]

Let's look at the passage in question:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." - Matthew 5:27-30

It's plain in verse 27-28 that to look to someone lustfully is the same as committing the sin of adultery in your heart.

It is no mistake that the next passages about the eye and the hand follow. The eye is the window to the mind, the thoughts, so to behold evil is to set you up for sin. Sin begins with our thoughts,

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." - James 1:14-15

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he..." - Proverbs 23:7

So if our thoughts are continually thinking evil thoughts, then we end up becoming what we think.

This is why Jesus says in the next verses to pluck out our eye lest we be cast into hell. Not that we should literally pluck out our eye, but to cast off the thinking and influences of sin that so easily beset us.

While the eye denotes sinful thoughts, the hand denotes sinful actions. Again, Jesus warns that it is better to cut off our hand lest we be cast into hell. In other words, we must control our actions as well as our thoughts. Really though, if we can control our thoughts, we can control our actions (Roman 12:1-2).

As far as degrees of sin are concerned, remember what James 2:10 says,

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

So it matters not what sin you commit, because you break the whole law whether it is "big" or "small".

 

[ILAF1234]

I totally agree with what you are saying, but if this were to be said around someone who doesn't know that, it could be taken the wrong way.

If what your saying is true, I don't see how there aren't degrees of sin.

Note: The fact of the matter is we were arguing for the same cause in a sense, and we just agreed to disagree which was the best thing to do.

It just aggrivates me because he says things like he did and he really doesn't have a true grasp of any of that, it is just what he's been told, and its what his family believes.

 

[ILAF1234]

Let's look at the passage in question:

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." - Matthew 5:27-30

It's plain in verse 27-28 that to look to someone lustfully is the same as committing the sin of adultery in your heart.

It is no mistake that the next passages about the eye and the hand follow. The eye is the window to the mind, the thoughts, so to behold evil is to set you up for sin. Sin begins with our thoughts,

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." - James 1:14-15

"For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he..." - Proverbs 23:7

So if our thoughts are continually thinking evil thoughts, then we end up becoming what we think.

This is why Jesus says in the next verses to pluck out our eye lest we be cast into hell. Not that we should literally pluck out our eye, but to cast off the thinking and influences of sin that so easily beset us.

While the eye denotes sinful thoughts, the hand denotes sinful actions. Again, Jesus warns that it is better to cut off our hand lest we be cast into hell. In other words, we must control our actions as well as our thoughts. Really though, if we can control our thoughts, we can control our actions (Roman 12:1-2).

As far as degrees of sin are concerned, remember what James 2:10 says,

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

So it matters not what sin you commit, because you break the whole law whether it is "big" or "small".

All I am saying, is that basically what my " all knowing " friend was saying is that my other friend keeping those thoughts to himself was no better than going out and doing it.

I've read all these things in the bible, but to tell him that he is not better off keeping those things to himself than actually going out and doing it doesn't make since to me.

 

[Dondi]

Does your friend have a relationship with God? Because if he doesn't have a relationship with God, then what I've told you is moot, isn't it? His sin is what keeps him separated from God. If he dies in his sins, he will end up in hell.

If he does have a relationship with God, or claims to, then he needs to know that God disapproves of all sin. For sin will keep him from experiencing God and he will become miserable in his sin.

Remember, all sin is predicated to only two commandments: "Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind." and "Love your neighbor as yourself". Those girls he is lusting after are his neighbors. By lusting after them, he is reducing them to objects of lust. And that is not how we love our neighbor.

 

[ILAF1234]

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."

I've read this, and understand what its saying. But If that is completely true then we are all guilty of all.

If this is completely true, then there aren't many of us that are going to get to go to a good place in the end.

 

[Dondi]

I've read this, and understand what its saying. But If that is completely true then we are all guilty of all.

If this is completely true, then there aren't many of us that are going to get to go to a good place in the end.

You are absolutely right. In fact, NONE of us are worthy of heaven. Romans 3:23 says,

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

And Romans 6:23 says,

"For the wages of sin is death..."

The bible talks about two types of death. One is physical death, when we die our soul is separated from the body. But the Bible talks about a spiritual death, which is separation from God in a place called Hell.

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:13-15

So we are all doomed from the start, DOOMED, I tell you.

But there is a solution, do you know what that is?

 

[Lilly of the Valley]

Bottom line, all sin gets hell and keeps you from heaven. Doesn't matter what it is and all sin is equal to God in the sense it will get a consequences, harms us and gets hell.

 

[TexasSky]

What prevented your friend from acting on the lustful feelings? A sense that it was truly wrong? Or a sense that he didn't want to get caught? Or a sense that he didn't want to get punished?

Your heart is what matters. If you truly wish someone to be killed, but don't take action to commit murder it is not love in your heart that stopped you, ergo your heart is not with God.

If, on the other hand, the thought fleetingly enters your mind and you push it aside because deep down inside you BELIEVE it is wrong, and you ask God to forgive you for such a horrible thought - it is resisting temptation.

 

[mysparrow]

I've read this, and understand what its saying. But If that is completely true then we are all guilty of all.

If this is completely true, then there aren't many of us that are going to get to go to a good place in the end.

we are all indeed guilty of it all and not worthy, praise God , that there was someone who took my place for the penalty of sin, and that is Jesus Christ !