definition of evolution and such

[Rhonda75]

wow, that's heavy. Since I have joined this Christian Forum...learning something new everyday.

 

[lucaspa]

The one thing I appreciate about the Lord's word is that it never changes or evolves or adapts to the situation or enviroment.

Is that true? Hasn't Judeo-Christianity changed over the millenia? Jesus in Matthew 19: 6-7 says that some of what Moses wrote in the Pentateuch was wrong. So there is one change. In Acts Peter has a dream where the dietary laws are revoked so that Christianity can adapt and admit gentiles without converting them to Jews. That's another change and adaptation to the situation.

What I was asking was what points could I use while in a debat over evolution, not if it's true or not.

So what you wanted was ways to argue against evolution. Sorry, but that argument within the scientific community and Christianity is over. Special creation was shown to be false.

First, as Weblastyn tried to point out to you, evolution isn't atheism. Second, nearly all Christian denominations accept evolution as God's method of creating.

I know that my friend says that evolution started as a single cell organism that evolved. And I am trying to tell him different. I don't think we evolve when we move from one enviroment to another. I think God equipped us to adapt, but not evolve. Sorry brother

YOU don't, as an individual. But POPULATIONS do evolve. Including populations of humans. There are several studies showing that the populations of people that moved to the Himalayan or Andean highlands have "evolved" by acquiring adaptations to living at the high altitude. These are genetic changes and the alleles there are different than in populations that have always lived in the lowlands.

Sorry.

 

[lucaspa]

I believe in science too, but not in a way that twists what the word has to say about it. I think the Bible does speak about how the universe works, and science brings it to life. I am going to try very hard from now on to choose my words very wisely. Thanks to all. Rhonda

Remember that what we have is not just "the word", but OUR INTERPRETATION of the Word. As Weblastyn pointed out earlier, what science has shown is that a LITERAL interpretation of Genesis is wrong. But was Genesis really meant to be history? Are there other legitimate ways to interpret Genesis 1-8? The answer is "YES". We can go into those interpretations in detail if you want.

Also remember that Christians believe God wrote TWO BOOKS. Creation itself is a book, because God created.

"Man learns from two books: the universe for the human study of things created by God; and the Bible, for the study of God's superior will and truth. One belongs to reason, the other to faith. Between them there is no clash." Pope Pius Xii, Address to the Pontifical Academy of Science, Dec. 3, 1939.

"If sound science appears to contradict the Bible, we may be sure that it is our interpretation of the Bible that is at fault." Christian Observer, 1832, pg. 437

This is the way that we prevent clashes between the two books. We realize that we have a human, fallible INTERPRETATION of the Bible and we take whatever help we can in finding the right interpretation. Including extrabiblical evidence. The Book of Creation helps us decide if our interpretation of the Bible is correct or not.

Here are some of Christian denominations that have accepted evolution:
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4650_statements_from_religious_orga_3_13_2001.asp

Remind your friend that evolution is NOT atheism. I don't know whether he believes that or not. If he does, he has a mistaken view of science and we can walk you thru the arguments that show science isn't atheism.

Darwin never looked on evolution as atheism.
"To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual." Origin of the Species pg. 449.

A famous American theologian later put this more simply:
"Christians should look on evolution simply as the method by which God works." James McCosh, theologian and President of Princeton, The Religious Aspects of Evolution, 2d ed. 1890, pg 68.

Most Christians viewed evolution not as an enemy but as a friend.

"The scientific evidence in favour of evolution, as a theory is infinitely more Christian than the theory of 'special creation'. For it implies the immanence of God in nature, and the omnipresence of His creative power. Those who oppose the doctrine of evolution in defence of a 'continued intervention' of God, seem to have failed to notice that a theory of occasional intervention implies as its correlative a theory of ordinary absence." AL Moore, Science and Faith, 1889, pg 184.

"The one absolutely impossible conception of God, in the present day, is that which represents him as an occasional visitor. Science has pushed the deist's God further and further away, and at the moment when it seemed as if He would be thrust out all together, Darwinism appeared, and, under the disguise of a foe, did the work of a friend. ... Either God is everywhere present in nature, or He is nowhere." AL Moore, Lex Mundi, 12th edition, 1891, pg 73.

 

[lucaspa]

I am kind of new to this, so would you mind explaining to me what the Nicene Creed is...

Weblastyn did a good job of that. I don't think you've looked at the rules of this board, but one of them is that, to be considered a Christian, you accept the Nicean Creed. Click on "Rules" at the bottom of the page and you will find them.

There is also the Apostle's Creed, which is another basic statement of faith of Christianity. It, too, emphasizes that God created but doesn't require HOW God had to create.

So, being a Christian doesn't mean being a creationist.

You might also be interested to know that in 1981 Arkansas passed a law requiring equal time in public school science classes for creationism. The law was challenged and suit brought against Arkansas against the law. Of the 26 plaintiffs in the suit, 23 were ministers or rabbis. The other 3 were educators; all three were Christians. The head guy on the suit -- MacLean vs Arkansas -- was REVEREND MacLean of the Presbyterian Church. The plaintiffs included the Catholic, Methodist, and Anglican bishops of Arkansas.

All these Christians wanted evolution taught in the public schools. None saw a problem of evolution for Christianity. But they did see a problem with creationism.

 

[Rhonda75]

Okay, I am in the wrong forum, I don't share the same views or believe in the Nicean Creed or however you spell it. I am not catholic so thank you for pointing it out to me.

 

[wblastyn]

Okay, I am in the wrong forum, I don't share the same views or believe in the Nicean Creed or however you spell it. I am not catholic so thank you for pointing it out to me.

The Nicene Creed isn't Catholic, it's Christian.

Here is the nicene creed:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


So what do you disagree with?

 

[Rhonda75]

Well if you missed the words we believe in one holy catholic and aposolate church, I would assume that is talking about the catholic church...I could be wrong. And secondly, Mary is mentioned in this creed, not only mentioned but that fact that her title is capatilized shows me something also. You see the catholic church emphasizes on that on a consistant basis. She was a virgian yes, but a sinner also, so why is she even mentioned. She was only used as a vessel as we all are. Although she was given one of the most highest honors of carrying the baby Jesus. But even she asked for forgiveness of her sins once she became pregnant. So I don't believe in recognizing her over and over. Jesus didn't even do that in the Bible. Matthew 12:46 - 50 clearly states that.

Also, who wrote this creed? Was it spiritually inspired by God? It seems that the Bible is what we are supposed to live by, not words that were written outside of them. Regardless if they sound holy or not.

You see in the end times and it's been the end times since Jesus' time on earth, which is also in the Bible, but as we near the wrath of God I believe that there will be all kinds of doctrines, I can't say if they'r false or not, but I will say this, if the words are not mentioned in the Bible I can't believe them to be true. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal savoir and His words clearly define my life. People miss that mark, by making God's word to be something to fit their personal beliefs. Can we agree on at least that?

One last thing, the reason why I said I am in the wrong forum, is because I was not aware that if you don't believe in the creed then you are not supposed to be in here, and if this is a Chrisitan Forum designed for that one purpose, than those beliefs are set aside for a reason. And that was pointed out to me on page 2.

 

[Crusadar]

okay i am new here and new to the ideas and such of evolution, so here i go. my friend and i always tend to get into very heated debates about evolution and time. I need help on what to say to him, he is very tough and I want to see him saved, so any ideas.

Say to him that evolution entails more philosophical implications than scientific facts. The philosophical assumptions are that God is not a factor in His creation as it excludes God as creator and therefore cannot be from God nor can it be confirmed by true science. Some of us are simply under the delusion that evolution and God can mix, but because scripture tells us that they can’t some have turned to reading the scripture as a book not to be taken seriously. Only for the "intellectually schizophrenic” can one fit evolution with the Bible in that such attempts become as futile as trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

[Rhonda75]

Thank you very much Crusader....have you read the rest of the posts? Do they say the same thing as your's just did? You see I am kind of simple and alot of big words have been used in this post, and it has been frustrating. The only responses I have been getting are that evolution is okay, just not the way it has been viewed, and I don't even know if I am saying that right...God Bless

 

[wblastyn]

Well if you missed the words we believe in one holy catholic and aposolate church, I would assume that is talking about the catholic church...I could be wrong. And secondly, Mary is mentioned in this creed, not only mentioned but that fact that her title is capatilized shows me something also. You see the catholic church emphasizes on that on a consistant basis. She was a virgian yes, but a sinner also, so why is she even mentioned. She was only used as a vessel as we all are. Although she was given one of the most highest honors of carrying the baby Jesus. But even she asked for forgiveness of her sins once she became pregnant. So I don't believe in recognizing her over and over. Jesus didn't even do that in the Bible. Matthew 12:46 - 50 clearly states that.

"Catholic" means universal. At the time the creed was written the church was "Catholic" ie universal. When Protestantism came along the main church was the church of Rome, which we now call the Roman Catholic Church.

The virgin part is mentioned because Jesus' virgin birth is one of the essential beliefs to the Christian faith.

So do you just disagree with the creed because you think it's Roman Catholic, or is there something else wrong with it?

Also, who wrote this creed? Was it spiritually inspired by God? It seems that the Bible is what we are supposed to live by, not words that were written outside of them. Regardless if they sound holy or not.

The bishops of the various churches around the Roman Empire wrote it during the Council of Nicaea, with Emperor Constantine watching them, who was a Christian himself, or at least claimed to be.

You see in the end times and it's been the end times since Jesus' time on earth, which is also in the Bible, but as we near the wrath of God I believe that there will be all kinds of doctrines, I can't say if they'r false or not, but I will say this, if the words are not mentioned in the Bible I can't believe them to be true. I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as my personal savoir and His words clearly define my life. People miss that mark, by making God's word to be something to fit their personal beliefs. Can we agree on at least that?

Yes, but the creed is a summary of what Jesus said we have to believe to be saved. Also it wasn't wriiten during the end times, it was written during the 4th Century.

One last thing, the reason why I said I am in the wrong forum, is because I was not aware that if you don't believe in the creed then you are not supposed to be in here, and if this is a Chrisitan Forum designed for that one purpose, than those beliefs are set aside for a reason. And that was pointed out to me on page 2.

It seems to me that you do believe the creed, but you just don't realise it because you think it's Roman Catholic.

 

[wblastyn]

Say to him that evolution entails more philosophical implications than scientific facts. The philosophical assumptions are that God is not a factor in His creation as it excludes God as creator and therefore cannot be from God nor can it be confirmed by true science. Some of us are simply under the delusion that evolution and God can mix, but because scripture tells us that they can’t some have turned to reading the scripture as a book not to be taken seriously. Only for the "intellectually schizophrenic” can one fit evolution with the Bible in that such attempts become as futile as trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Way to lose a convert. I'm sure Satan was cheering you on when you wrote this.

 

[Crusadar]

Thank you very much Crusader....have you read the rest of the posts? Do they say the same thing as your's just did? You see I am kind of simple and alot of big words have been used in this post, and it has been frustrating. The only responses I have been getting are that evolution is okay, just not the way it has been viewed, and I don't even know if I am saying that right...God Bless

It has come to my attention that you are looking for the answers to this issue, but you will find it not in this forum from the above individuals, rather pray first to God and He will reveal to you the truth as He has to me just a few months ago.

Your concern for your friend is genuine. And so it is only out of that concern that I refer you the below resources that may have the answers you are looking for, bear in mind however that only God has all the answers.

Science Facts and Evolution

In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood by Dr. Walt Brown

 

[Crusadar]

Way to lose a convert. I'm sure Satan was cheering you on when you wrote this.

In the name of Jesus, get thee behind me Satan!

 

[Rhonda75]

"Catholic" means universal. At the time the creed was written the church was "Catholic" ie universal. When Protestantism came along the main church was the church of Rome, which we now call the Roman Catholic Church.

The virgin part is mentioned because Jesus' virgin birth is one of the essential beliefs to the Christian faith.

Yes but not as part of a creed, read your Bible, Jesus never even recognized her as she was mentioned in the creed, this was done for a specific reason...why do you think he never made mentioned of it? It souldn't even be part of that creed

So do you just disagree with the creed because you think it's Roman Catholic, or is there something else wrong with it?

Like I said before, yes I disagree with the creed, and that was pointed out to me before, that I shouldn't even be in this room, so that should answer your question without any explanations.


The bishops of the various churches around the Roman Empire wrote it during the Council of Nicaea, with Emperor Constantine watching them, who was a Christian himself, or at least claimed to be.

Exactly...claimed to be, this is the type of people you set your beliefs on, someone who claims to be a Christian. And by the way who were the Nicaeas? And aren't Bishops involved with some religion or another? Jesus was against religion wasn't he?

Yes, but the creed is a summary of what Jesus said we have to believe to be saved. Also it wasn't wriiten during the end times, it was written during the 4th Century.

Why would we need a creed then, isn't the Bible good enough, doesn't it clearly state in the Bible, that the heavens and earth shall pass away, but my word shall remain. You're going by a man made doctrine. The bible is all you need, that should be your creed.

The end times have been going on for quite some time. Jesus was preaching repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is near, it was the end times way back when. We're just nearing God's wrath now.


It seems to me that you do believe the creed, but you just don't realise it because you think it's Roman Catholic.

Well that is what the church of Rome is...Roman Catholic...and they are the ones who wrote it overseen by a Christian, which doesn't make any sense to me. Because no Christian who knows the word of God would ever oversee a project like writing a creed, a creed is something that religions do, I am not religious, I have a relationship, and his word is all I need.

 

[Rhonda75]

In the name of Jesus, get thee behind me Satan!

Thanks Crusader, I appreciate the sites and I am going to research them.
God Bless... Rhonda

 

[wblastyn]

Well that is what the church of Rome is...Roman Catholic...and they are the ones who wrote it overseen by a Christian, which doesn't make any sense to me. Because no Christian who knows the word of God would ever oversee a project like writing a creed, a creed is something that religions do, I am not religious, I have a relationship, and his word is all I need.

So you disregard the entire early church because it was called "Catholic"? The early church came together and made the creed. The main point of the creed was to combat Arian heresy, which said Jesus was not God. That's what creeds are really for, to tell us the churches official interpretation of scripture, which helps find heresy (false teaching).

When I say they were in the Roman Empire I don't mean they were just the Church of Rome, the Empire spread to Ephesus, Colossius, Corinth, Jerusalem, etc and all those churches were involved.

Yes, but you need to know how to interpret his word.

 

[GJG]

The trinity is................uummmmmm.......I think it isn,t biblical.

 

[Rhonda75]

Okay I started this thread and I am very surprised to see that people are still adding onto something and I had already received my answers.

For all you scholars out there....this just in. A couple of days following the start of this thread, I informed my friend (the same one in this thread) of what I had posted.

His comment was this....you can not compare the Bible and evolution due to the fact that the very nature and origin of evolution completely contradicts the Bible and you can not relate the two. This is coming from a man who has studied both the Bible and evolution. He said that Darwin's theories and studies in no way relate or give light to the Bible and that should be the end of it. He said to try and relate the two is like mixing oil and water....you can't. People have a very bad habit of trying to mix in the world to try and conform to their beliefs. It would be like a Christian Wicca.

I would ask that this thread please be ended. I have received my answers. I will only use what I read out of the Bible to try and witness to my friend. Like Paul from the bible I will try

 

[TheBear]

okay i am new here and new to the ideas and such of evolution, so here i go. my friend and i always tend to get into very heated debates about evolution and time. I need help on what to say to him, he is very tough and I want to see him saved, so any ideas.

Simple solution.

At this point, don't allow yourself to get bogged down with all this evolution stuff. Don't allow it to be a block in your witnessing. The message of salvation is a simple message of God's love for us, and how we allow Him into our hearts and lives. If you allow evolution to be a stumbling block, he may never come to understand the love of God.

Keep it simple.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

Okay I am sorry that I got into this discussion. The one thing I appreciate about the Lord's word is that it never changes or evolves or adapts to the situation or enviroment. What I was asking was what points could I use while in a debat over evolution, not if it's true or not. I know that my friend says that evolution started as a single cell organism that evolved. And I am trying to tell him different. I don't think we evolve when we move from one enviroment to another. I think God equipped us to adapt, but not evolve. Sorry brother

"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" (John 8:32)

Why are you debating evolution if you don't want to know if its true or not?